Concern About Being Outed At Work

[jamie001]

There is nothing wrong with a femme look because some of us prefer a femme look. We just don't try to deceive other folks into believing that we are women. In my case, I am a feminized man and I am very proud of who and what I am. There is nothing wrong with the word feminine or masculine as there exists a continuum between masculine and feminine. I am more on the feminine side, while some folks on this site are more on the masculine side. We need to accept everyone because this gender variance is reality. Gender is not male of female, it is a continuum. It is society that has created the false construct of pigeon-holing men and women into rigid gender roles. We need to break those stereotypes because they hinder our progress. We need to support the both the Braveheart and the Femme Skirt Wearer that enjoys high-heels and pantyhose with his skirt. It is all a matter of self expression.

Regards,

Jamie

Fashion Freedom for Men!!

To those who keep saying hosiery and heels are femme.

hose were origninaly male clothing as were heels. Roman soldiers shaved their legs, or coverd them with material much like stockings for a more refined look. Please stop saying that guys that want to wear hosiery with their skirts are trying to be fem.

Methinks you are deliberately evading the point raised here! It's the 'package' that's at odds, not specifically tights! Forget the nonsense about what Romans may, or may not, have worn - that purely a 'red herring' - isn't it? In the 'modern age', it's not exactly uncommon for men to wear tights, in cold weather, is it? Hasn't been for decades. An extra layer of clothing, when the temperature drops. Postmen, policemen, binmen, building workers, even office staff(!) have worn such items in the winter - have done so myself - no big deal! Wear 'em when it's hot (say, 45-50F, and above), and they're a potential health risk - regardless of gender - more particularly under tr*users, especially tight fitting ones.

I know exactly where Skip is coming from, (as do most folk here) and, despite our different cultures, locations and temperatures, it's not exactly difficult to visualise the 'look' he is referring to. M to F Cross-dressing isn't about one item of clothing in isolation, it's about the 'look' - and that 'look' is indisputably, 'femme'!

[jamie001]

This is not turning into a crossdressing site. Even thought I am a femme guy, I don't try to deceive anyone that I am a woman. I simply wear what I like to wear as a man, albeit a feminized man, but still a man.

Pythos,

Well said! To many people try to make others fit 'their' mold.
Most of us here like to wear skirts, some with hose, others with
out. This is their style. Some I personally like while others-"No Way
Jose". That is what makes each person unique. Peter v's style is
not for me, but I will defend his right to wear what he likes. Just
like your Wedding Outfit--Not for me, but it is you! You can pull it
off! Great! I agree that many 'things' are creeping back into the
forum, that are not proper things to be discussed here. I also agree
with Skip that some of the 'posts' may be driving patrons away.
Maybe they feel that this is turning into a Cross-Dressing site.
That we are not! We are just trying to re-claim what was once
proper attire for men. This is a site for and about Men in Skirts AND
Kilts. Not just skirts or what is worn under them-that is for another
site. I also agree that the word 'femme' has no place on this forum.

Yes, this does need to be put to rest. I too, am getting tired of
these kind of posts. They are not promoting men in skirts & kilts.

Uncle Al
Duncanville, TX

[jamie001]

I also believe that we shouldn't worry if we are perceived as "gay". Gay is not illegal, and even though I am not gay, if someone wants to perceive me as "gay" then it is not my problem.

People who wear pantyhose wear them in air conditioned offices, and most certainly not doing hard heavy labor in a yard, in the blazing sun.

Wow, those fellows you were referring to back in the early times that wore hose all the time must have been really really hot, since Air Conditioning didn't exist in the 1600's, when hose for men was all the rage. I don't know for sure, as I wasn't there, but dueling with swords in the blazing sun in the summer in a dueling yard must have been at least as hot and sweaty as doing hard heavy labor.

Well I know the Keys are too darn hot for tights! So is southeastern NC from Easter until Thanksgiving!! But this forum is a pretty big tent and I think we can accept a lot of opinions. When it gets too weird, Bob or Carl will let us know!

As for what you wear to work, I agree that you should wear whatever the person who signs your paycheck thinks is appropriate. After you're done for the day, then wear what you like. I appreciate boldness as much as anyone, but each must go forth within their own comfort level. I don't think anyone has the data to know whether the more femme freestylers produce negative social consequences, as far as acceptance goes, for those of us who are more traditionally masculine or conservative in our style. Of course for a lot of onlookers, it likely doesn't make any difference; skirt = gay, no matter what style. But it is also possible that the more radical freestylers are running interference for the rest of us. Perhaps, when compared to them, Skip, you and I don't look out of the ordinary! We might need to thank them some day!

sasq

[crfriend]

This is not turning into a crossdressing site. Even thought I am a femme guy, I don't try to deceive anyone that I am a woman. I simply wear what I like to wear as a man, albeit a feminized man, but still a man.

Well, I for one certainly hope that it's not going to turn into a "conventional" cross-dressing site because I have precisely no interests down that particular path. The interest I have is the incorporation of skirted garments into my wardrobe. If it turns into a "conventional" cross-dressing site I shall be gone for I have no interest in role-playing.

As far as the "feminised man" is concerned, if anybody wants to perceive himself in that role -- although it sounds more like the stereotypical fantasy role -- that's fine; however, do not presume to speak for everybody here. You do not. SkirtCafe has a broad spectrum of personalities, and whilst most of us are fairly tolerant most of the time, we're only human and don't particularly like being dictated to -- especially when it comes to those personalities.

[Departed Member]

There is nothing wrong with a femme look because some of us prefer a femme look. We just don't try to deceive other folks into believing that we are women. ... We need to support the both the Braveheart and the Femme Skirt Wearer that enjoys high-heels and pantyhose with his skirt.

The point folk are trying to make is that this particular website doesn't set out to cater for either 'extreme' - but more especially, the latter. The original site split a number of years ago, with the "Femme" advocates being well catered for by what is now called, "The Atrium", (as well as, I'm led to believe, a number of other similar sites). The second 'split' came about, when some of the nervous "Kilt-only" wearers felt that what they regard as part of the crossdressing fraternity were 'taking over' here, and moved on to "Kilt only" sites. Whether you, or anyone else, chooses to believe that the public at large will not immediately identify your chosen style as 'crossdressing', that is your prerogative. "As a man" doesn't enter their thoughts - or mine, to be bluntly honest. Asked to identify what best defines M to F "crossdressing" nowadays, you'll invariably get, "high heels and makeup". Note particularly, not skirts, wigs, and bras - they only come with the definition of "tranny"!

[Kris]

There is nothing wrong with a femme look because some of us prefer a femme look. We just don't try to deceive other folks into believing that we are women. In my case, I am a feminized man and I am very proud of who and what I am. There is nothing wrong with the word feminine or masculine as there exists a continuum between masculine and feminine. I am more on the feminine side, while some folks on this site are more on the masculine side. We need to accept everyone because this gender variance is reality. Gender is not male of female, it is a continuum. It is society that has created the false construct of pigeon-holing men and women into rigid gender roles. We need to break those stereotypes because they hinder our progress. We need to support the both the Braveheart and the Femme Skirt Wearer that enjoys high-heels and pantyhose with his skirt. It is all a matter of self expression.

I agree with just about everything you say, Jamie, about the gender continuum, and I agree that it is good to break down stereotypes. Thee is nothing wrong with being anywhere on that continuum, it is just who you are. I also agree to support people who are anywhere on that continuum, and to support people's right to be who they are, and also to change with time.

But not every Internet community, like SkirtCafe, can be everything to everyone. Each online community has it's own character, which attracts particular people, and results in particular kinds of topics being discussed. It's perfectly valid for members to have concerns that if SkirtCafe has a preponderance of topics to far afield from the "men in skirts and kilts" purpose of the board that SkirtCafe will loose members, and will loose it's unique character.

I'm not saying anybody's right or wrong, I'm just saying that's the way it is.

kris

[jamie001]

Merlin,

I understand your point of view, however, I really believe that we should be working to abolish the word "crossdressing". Did you ever notice that the word "crossdressing" really only applies to men? The reason for that is because women are typically accepted in all forms of men's clothing including men's shoes, pants, underwear, shirts, neckties, baseball caps, rugged hiking boots, and just about any other item of male clothing that you can name. Restaurant and airline uniforms even have women dressed in make shirts and ties!! Therefore, it is really very difficult for a woman to crossdress in the classic definition of the word. It is important to understand that while a woman is wearing these male clothing items, she is not trying to deceive other folks into believing that she is a man. In reality she is a masculinized woman and is accepted by society at large.

Now back to my point:

A man that wears anything feminine is usually ridiculed. This needs to change. As I have stated, I am a feminized male that doesn't try to deceive anyone about my real sex. I am just a man that like to wear feminine clothing and and other items such as nail polish, earrings, women's perfume, etc. I don't try to change my voice or deceive anyone that I am a woman. I just want to be perceived as a feminized male because that is how I feel and it is wear I fall on the gender spectrum. Please don't let society pigeon-hole you and other members of this forum into little boxes that are labeled "Proper Male Behavior" and "Proper Female Behavior". That concept is absolutely wrong and promotes rigid conformity rather than true fashion freedom.

I believe that to achieve our goals, we must work together and respect each other. While your masculine skirt-wearing image is not for me, I respect you and anyone that wants to present that image. I believe that this forum also needs to have respect for those of us that choose a more feminine presentation of skirt wearing and other items that are typically considered feminine by today's society. See yahoo.com today for a picture of Jim Carey wearing a woman's bathing suit on the beach. This is just one example. If you do some googling, you will find that men's fashion is very quickly moving more toward the feminine size. Therefore, I believe that the feminized male is "here to stay".

It is my impression that the "Freestyle" section and "Other Stuff" sections of this forum are to discuss these types of issues. I recently posted a thread about men wearing nail polish in one of these areas because that is where it seemed to belong. I apologize if I was wrong and posted it in the wrong section.

As I previously stated, gender is a continuum and we cannot pigeon-hole folks into masculine and feminine areas as dictated by society. If we do this, we will never achieve true fashion freedom. We must work together and respect each other's views on all of the issues surrounding clothing, makeup, and equal rights.

Regards,

Jamie

There is nothing wrong with a femme look because some of us prefer a femme look. We just don't try to deceive other folks into believing that we are women. ... We need to support the both the Braveheart and the Femme Skirt Wearer that enjoys high-heels and pantyhose with his skirt.

The point folk are trying to make is that this particular website doesn't set out to cater for either 'extreme' - but more especially, the latter. The original site split a number of years ago, with the "Femme" advocates being well catered for by what is now called, "The Atrium", (as well as, I'm led to believe, a number of other similar sites). The second 'split' came about, when some of the nervous "Kilt-only" wearers felt that what they regard as part of the crossdressing fraternity were 'taking over' here, and moved on to "Kilt only" sites. Whether you, or anyone else, chooses to believe that the public at large will not immediately identify your chosen style as 'crossdressing', that is your prerogative. "As a man" doesn't enter their thoughts - or mine, to be bluntly honest. Asked to identify what best defines M to F "crossdressing" nowadays, you'll invariably get, "high heels and makeup". Note particularly, not skirts, wigs, and bras - they only come with the definition of "tranny"!

[Uncle Al]

NOTICE--Three posts were added as I was composing the following post.
Please bear that in mind when reading this post--Thanks!

This is not turning into a crossdressing site. Even thought I am a femme guy, I don't try to deceive anyone that I am a woman. I simply wear what I like to wear as a man, albeit a feminized man, but still a man.

Well, I for one certainly hope that it's not going to turn into a "conventional" cross-dressing site because I have precisely no interests down that particular path. The interest I have is the incorporation of skirted garments into my wardrobe. If it turns into a "conventional" cross-dressing site I shall be gone for I have no interest in role-playing.

As far as the "feminised man" is concerned, if anybody wants to perceive himself in that role -- although it sounds more like the stereotypical fantasy role -- that's fine; however, do not presume to speak for everybody here. You do not. SkirtCafe has a broad spectrum of personalities, and whilst most of us are fairly tolerant most of the time, we're only human and don't particularly like being dictated to -- especially when it comes to those personalities.

Well stated Carl!

is out.

When I first started visiting Tom's Cafe',( 1998-1999) I was pleased to see how many
patrons there were at the Cafe'. I received much support from the members, and I have seen
what can happen when to much of the 'wrong type' of discussion can do at the Cafe'!
We lost quite a few excellent members due to the discussions diverging away
from the original intent of the forum. Many are over at X-Marks. That site has really
blossomed! If anyone tries to ask questions about skirts, they are usually directed to
Skirt Cafe.

I also used to visit The Atrium. Broad spectrum of posters there. At The Atrium,
there is more discussions about Cross-Dressing and any 'part' of the wardrobe, than is
normally accepted here at the Cafe'. We are more refined in that we are here to
discuss Men In Skirts and Kilts.
NOT WHAT IS WORN / NOT WORN UNDER THEM.

IMO, we are getting many posters here, that are leaning towards the style of posts at
The Atrium. I agree that I don't want the Cafe' to turn in that direction. We are here
to support each other in going that 'one step' beyond kilts, into wearing skirts in our everyday
life style. ALSO, we are here to support Men in Kilts as an every day item, not just
for 'special occasions'.

I do miss several of our 'missing' friends. I noticed that Emerald Witch is 'lurking'.
but she is not posting much. I really enjoyed her comments, opinions and her viewpoint.
She is a wonderful supporter of MIS/K, just like Sapphire.

I've stated this before, and I will state this again----the word 'FEMME'
has no place at The Cafe'. We are promoting MEN in SKIRTS & KILTS as MEN.
Not 'femmenized' men, but ALL men in general. We are promoting the fact that
men can have 'choices' just as women have 'choices' in their wardrobe. We want
to get skirts & kilts into every mans closet. To be worn when they want, not
when someone else says it is OK to wear them.

Again, this is my opinion and views on this subject about the goals of the Cafe'. The words
'Femme', 'Femmenized', etc should be taken out the front door of the Cafe' and
barred from entering. These are my opinions and if they offended anyone, TBSS!
(To Bad So Sad)

I have been offended by many posts here and not written anything about them. Well, I'm
now standing up for the principals that the Cafe' was founded upon.
The promotion of MUG's, Men wearing kilts and or skirts when they want, getting Men
to think outside the box, and Do This Without Fear or Retalliation.

In this case, If I have offended anyone with my opinions and views I DON'T CARE!
(I've thought about eliminating the next sentence, but I will leave it in.
I may get a reprimand for it.)
Take the words Femme to The Atrium site, and don't bother coming back,
UNLESS YOU ARE WILLING TO DISCUSS ITEMS BASED ON THE ORIGINAL
PRINCIPALS OF THE CAFE'!

End of

Uncle Al
Duncanville, TX

Edited for a few typos and spacing.

[Departed Member]

Did you ever notice that the word "crossdressing" really only applies to men? The reason for that is because women are typically accepted in all forms of men's clothing including men's shoes, pants, underwear, shirts, neckties, baseball caps, rugged hiking boots, and just about any other item of male clothing that you can name. ... In reality she is a masculinized woman and is accepted by society at large.

Yes, I can see where you're coming from at this stage! And, up to this point, I'm in full agreement with what you say. I've recently visited stores which no longer have a "Mens" section, merely: "Clothes" and "Women's & Children's Clothes". I find it rather sad, to be honest. As for "crossdressing" women, I'll admit to having chastised some of my female chums for wearing skirts which fasten 'the masculine way'! To which, of course, they freely admitted!

A man that wears anything feminine is usually ridiculed. This needs to change. As I have stated, I am a feminized male that doesn't try to deceive anyone about my real sex.

How do you intend to go about convincing anyone to change their perception? Bearing in mind there's a good few here on this forum far from convinced? Look, I lived through the sixties and seventies when men's fashion items very often 'out-femmed' the ladies! The trouble was, it was all too much, too soon and it was (the word I hate more than any other!) "Fashion"! Fashion dies. It goes in the waste disposal. Folk look back and shudder at their own faux pas (as they see them nowadays). I'm not saying it is right, but it's what folk do.

Please don't let society pigeon-hole you and other members of this forum into little boxes that are labeled "Proper Male Behavior" and "Proper Female Behavior". That concept is absolutely wrong and promotes rigid conformity rather than true fashion freedom.

Sorry, I prefer Women to be Women and Men to be Men. I very much enjoy the difference, and the consequent interaction between the two. I do not want to be, even partially, a copy, or a clone, of another gender. I don't accept, at all, your premise that gender differences should be effectively abolished in the name of your interpretation of 'fashion freedom'.

I believe that to achieve our goals, we must work together and respect each other. While your masculine skirt-wearing image is not for me, I respect you and anyone that wants to present that image.

You're missing the point somewhat. I don't have an 'image', per se. I don't have an 'ego', or 'vanity obsession', either. Sorry!

I believe that this forum also needs to have respect for those of us that choose a more feminine presentation of skirt wearing and other items that are typically considered feminine by today's society. See yahoo.com today for a picture of Jim Carey wearing a woman's bathing suit on the beach. This is just one example. If you do some googling, you will find that men's fashion is very quickly moving more toward the feminine size. Therefore, I believe that the feminized male is "here to stay".

Not really! The principle reason most of us subscribed to this forum was to distance ourselves from 'feminine presentation' as you put it. Which is why those who followed such thinking moved over to The Atrium and similar sites. As I pointed out earlier, men's 'fashions' of the seventies were way past the stage you appear to think (some) folk have reached in this Century!

As I previously stated, gender is a continuum and we cannot pigeon-hole folks into masculine and feminine areas as dictated by society. If we do this, we will never achieve true fashion freedom. We must work together and respect each other's views on all of the issues surrounding clothing, makeup, and equal rights.

I'm not at all sure of your interpretation of "true fashion freedom". If you believe that we (men) should all wear what are essentially 'women's clothes', just because women have raided our wardrobes, and use their make-up as they do, then I don't see that as any more than becoming 'second class women' - much in the way that by 'tr*usering themselves, many women believe they have magically become the 'equals' of men, err, at the same time wishing to cling on to all of the advantages they possessed, before their perceived
(r)evolution. Do you call that, "true fashion freedom"? Why should I be expected to accept someone else's 'clothing choices', when they directly prevent me from fully exercising mine, because of the perception of those around me, namely, family and friends?

[Ray]

An interesting debate, and in fairness, one which comes round again and again.

Uncle Al, I have been here since 1997. You might forget androgynous contributors such as Adria and Steve D, not to mention other more excitable characters, but what was Tom's Cafe was a pretty open church. It was never for those who were openly tranvestite - as has been widely posted, there are huge munbers of sites for these individuals. Tom's Café/skirtcafé is now a very good mix, and there are discreet areas now clearly highlighted for non-pure skirting discussion to take place. I'd say that the majority of us are still giving this forum a flavour of what the original café was like.

I would agree that usage of "feminised" is not really...um...appropriate for this forum. Jamie's logic is flawless, but life isn't logic, so sensitivity is required here. I could go on to X Marks and say that kilts can be horribly itchy and they should have silk lining. There's logic there. As a Scot, unlike half of the contributors there, I could even get really trad and question their right to wear a kilt, but again, sensitivity should prevail over logic - or at least temper the brutal application of logic.

Jamie, you have valid logical points, but be sensitive, please, or you will alienate people. Tell you what, here's a challenge. See if you can go 5 postings without mentioning "nail polish". Women, when posting on a fashion website can. Can you? There's a reason here, Jamie. If you are (or are seen to be) less obsessive about a particular fashion item, you may find that your points are received rather better. I promise not to mention anything obsessive either! (forum, guide me. If I'm obsessive about anything - as opposed to wearing the same old boring thing, let me know, won't you? )

Merlin,....hi! Is that a pic of a fabby Vulcan in your avatar? XK588 by any chance?

...right, where did I put that glass of wine..

[Departed Member]

Ray,

Yes, I put it up in anticipation of being at Waddington last week to see its first public demo, since it was in RAF service (gosh, that was 15 years ago!). Stand by and I'll alter it to one taken last week. It still looks, and sounds, fabulous AND, that's totally make-up free!

PS, its XH558, otherwise it'd be another favourite of mine, a Buccaneer, XK488!

[Bob]

This thread is arousing passions and tempers on many sides, and I have been asked to step in and moderate. I am temporarily closing the thread, while I figure out what to do. If you have anything to say on the matter --- or something you would like to post but now can't --- please PM me.

Thanks, --- Bob