Insecurity about our masculinity

[sambuka]

AMM

What you have written does resonate with me…

What I experience is that sometimes I'll look at myself wearing a skirt, or tights, or a whole ensemble with a skirt, or think about what I might make or assemble, and suddenly I feel like, "who IS this person?"… I didn’t use to ask myself that question; I knew I was OK and that was it. Or so I thought.

There's also an aspect that has to do with the split between inner self and public persona… Perhaps this is shared by many of us, especially those (like me) who haven’t completely gotten out of the skirt closet.

I am a man. Not a woman or androgyn or something else trapped inside a man's body. That is also something I am sure of. I know I don’t want to be or pass as a woman; I just want to wear what society labels as women’s clothes- and even at that, not everything.

And when I find myself wanting things that I've been raised to think that only girls/women like, I can tell myself as often as I want that it's just social convention, there's still a little voice that pipes up every now and then that this is all proof that despite everything I've always believed, deep inside, I really am a woman. Totally, yes, totally, completely agree with you on that. And, it brings up the point that if it’s really only about clothes – as we keep telling ourselves, then why do I (we) want them so much? Can it really be only the clothes themselves (comfort, fabric used, style…), what they represent (it’s feminine), a combination of both or is it something else altogether?

Even if I get used to seeing myself looking in some way "unmasculine" by traditional standards, there's the question of how I feel about other people seeing me this way. Indeed, showing an unmasculine image of ourselves takes a big set of cahoonas, but I guess that CRFriend said it best : By the time that the average bloke gets to the point where he's got the cubes to don a skirt in public, he's got more masculinity than most; he's got confidence, he's got conviction, and he's got, for lack of a better word, "intestinal fortitude". He's got the wherewital to make his way in the world, in his way, on his terms. He has the courage to stand alone and proclaim his personal victory. Can one get much more "masculine" than that?

All right: back to trying to figure things out. In the mean time, thank you all very much for sharing, especially you AMM.

[AMM]

On Sept. 24, I wrote:

P.S.: As far as I am concerned, this thread is dead.

Well, it's still going, and (IMHO) even back on topic!

Now I know how to make a Thread That Will Not Die: call it "dead."

Anyway, since a number of people have quoted

there's still a little voice that pipes up every now and then that this is all proof that despite everything I've always believed, deep inside, I really am a woman.

I've been thinking about the phrase "... I really am a woman," and I don't think the phrase really describes the fear. There's a sense of humiliation and loss of status, sort of like the position of the man in Mark Twain's Puddinhead Wilson who has grown up as a white man and a slaveholder, but finds out that one of his slaves actually switched him and her son in infancy, so he is really her son (and thus a slave), while his manservant is actually by rights his master.

I've never thought that I looked down on women, but after examining my reaction to doing something "feminine," I wonder if underneath all my posturing, my real attitude isn't more like, "being female is fine -- for those who can't be anything better," and I'm just in denial. Sort of like the folks who would say, "Yes, Negroes are wonderful people. But--you can't be planning to marry one??"

Like many men here, I grew up with everyone around me trying to whip me on to live up to an almost unattainable and often contradictory standard of Manhood with the fear of "being a girl." (To judge from The Simpsons, this is still going on.) There was no distinction between not being a Real Man(tm) and being one of those despised females. I don't think that SkirtCafe is the appropriate place to argue about how pervasive misogyny is in our (USA -- or others'?) culture, but to understand what I'm saying, you have to accept that to me it is as obvious as the sun on a cloudless day at Miami Beach in August. I always thought that since I was always a complete failure at being a Real Man I hadn't bought into these ideas, and that I had in adulthood successfully expunged any remnants from both my conscious and unconscious mind -- but there it is again. Like roaches in a NYC apartment.

[sambuka]

The "I really am a woman" statement was, for me, more related to maybe not being who I thought I was, or at least, having a question mark hovering above, which of course brought to the forefront your other point, when you state that "everyone around me trying to whip me on to live up to an almost unattainable and often contradictory standard of Manhood with the fear of "being a girl." That, I have lived with, like you when growing up, and since then in both my personal and preofessional life. That is a standard that, as I age - mature , I don't believe in anymore and feel is becoming a burden.

There's a sense of humiliation and loss of status. Interesting thought, especially the Mark Twain reference. I understand where you are going with this - or at least, I think I know..., but I can't say that I've thought about this issue in such a manner. When I started doing things classified as "feminine", I was filled with shame, shame that I wanted to do these things, shame that these things were not what a Real Man would have wanted to do. As time went, the amount of shame disappeared, and what is left is a sense that I have become something else. What is that something else? I don't quite know yet, but at least, I am at peace with myself. Finally.

[Peter v]

I was filled with shame, shame that I wanted to do these things, shame that these things were not what a Real Man would have wanted to do. As time went, the amount of shame disappeared, and what is left is a sense that I have become something else. What is that something else? I don't quite know yet, but at least, I am at peace with myself. Finally.

Hallo sambuka, fine that you are at peace with yourself, but did you think about what you said? In fact you are not becoming something else, but becoming your true self.

We get indoctrinated that we must be "real men" Macho's etc. which is utter nonsense. That is probably one of the reasons men have such a hard time believing their own feelings. In fact everybody is always themself, their whole life, only they may not always be as they themselves think they should be ( or what they think that others want them to be for thier sake) .

Be happy with your self as you are.
Peter v

[crfriend]

When I started doing things classified as "feminine", I was filled with shame, shame that I wanted to do these things, shame that these things were not what a Real Man would have wanted to do.

I'd like to call a hard stop to the notion that "feminine" is somehow less than "masculine". Both are components of human nature, and in that context are inherently equal; take the Puddinhead Wilson allegory for what it means -- we are all equal as humans.

So, then, what behaviours may be construed as "feminine"? Caring for others? Showing empathy for others? Not tripping over the hem of a skirt? Where does the boundary get drawn? Should a boundary be drawn? The first two are not only human traits; other members of the "animal kingdom" exhibit them. The latter one is a skirt thing not a "feminine thing". The difference should be obvious.

As time went, the amount of shame disappeared, and what is left is a sense that I have become something else. What is that something else? I don't quite know yet, but at least, I am at peace with myself. Finally.

Perhaps this is part of the path to becoming fully human. Whatever the heck that means. but I can just about guarantee that it's got precisely nothing to do with Fifth Avenue [*] (the powerhouse advertising district in the US, which, sadly, it seems, drives notions for a vastly wider audience than it ought).

[*] 2007-12-10 -- This is factually incorrect; it should read Madison Avenue. Fifth Avenue is merely the showplace; the "dirty work" goes on over on Madison. (Thanks, Sapphire!) Note to self: Get your facts straight before shooting off your mouth....

[sambuka]

QUOTE CRfriend I'd like to call a hard stop to the notion that "feminine" is somehow less than "masculine". Feminine being less than masculine is not what I meant, very far from it. The shame, now, that's probably a word that caught more attention than I wanted. To be quite precise, maybe I should have used a softer word, something along the lines of perturbed, unsettled, or even simply upset. In short, what I felt had to do with wearing as a man what is considered as feminine clothing, not les femmes.

The difference should be obvious. Yes, indeed, I agree. However, wearing a skirt, however normal we know it is and should be, is still viewed as a feminine thing in our part of the world; if it was viewed as a skirt thing, this forum would probably not exist.

QUOTE Peter V Be happy with your self as you are. That's exactly what I am doing. Thanks.

[rosario]

Mucho gusto deseo compartir este articulo y en lo posible tener al gun comentario.
gracias

Los primeros humanos vistieron fue Túnicas y gozaban de muy buena SALUD.
EL PANTALON ES UN REZAGO DE LA REVOLUCION INDUSTRIAL ; hay necesidad de INNOVAR POR SALUD Y COMODIDAD

LA HOMBRIA NO ESTA EN USAR UN INCOMODO, INDECENTE Y POCO SALUDABLE PANTALON; PENSAR ASI ES TENER UN POBRE CONCEPTO DE HOMBRIA

Las FALDAS para los Varones(en todas la edades) y para las mujeres no tiene ningún inconveniente al usarlas a menos que se usen demasiado cortas o muy ajustadas.
Son prendas muy SALUDABLES, COMODAS, ERGONOMICAS, ECONOMICAS Y PRACTICAS Y FACILES DE CONFECCIONAR.
Que bueno que se elaborara un diseño dinámico de un pantalón para hombre y se observe la trayectoria que sigue la costura que une las dos mangas de las piernas del pantalón, para observar las GRANDES y GRAVEZ molestias que esta COSTURA produce en especial en los varones(en todas sus edades), FAVOR OBSERVAR COMO SE COMPORTA DICHA COSTURA CUANDO SE TIENE QUE PERMANECER: SENTADO , EN LA OFICINA , CONDUCIENDO O VIAJANDO Y EN MUCHAS OTRAS POSICIONES QUE NO SEA PERMANECIENDO DE PIE. Si es posible leer en Internet "la moda para los varones en siglo X X l ".
Las anatomías, del hombre y de la mujer, son diferentes; y para los varones es mucho, mas conveniente y SALUDABLE, el uso de las FALDAS, y TUNICAS O VESTIDOS, en especial para los que trabajan o estudian durante largas jornadas sentados, en una oficina, o conduciendo un vehiculo; para las damas parece que los pantalones no les incomoda.
El pantalón para los varones como overol o ropa de trabajo es ideal, solo para ALGUNAS LABORES QUE LO EXIGEN segun el trabajo, más no para descansar.
Una de las mas beneficiadas con las faldas para los varones son las DAMAS, la salud de ellos va a mejorar muchísimo.
Seria extraordinario que se INNOVARA LAS PRENDAS DE VESTIR PARA LOS HOMBRES.
LOS REYES, PRINCIPES Y SACERDOTES ANTES NOS MOSTRABAN CON SUS TRAJES, (TUNICAS Y VESTIDOS) COMO SE PODIA DISFRUTAR DE LA ELEGANCIA EL BUEN GUSTO Y LA COMODIDAD A LA HORA DE VESTIR. Desde hace mucho tiempo nos hemos estado vistiendo solo para trabajar y no se han diseñado prendas para salir a la calle o para descansar; pues aun las pijamas tienen el mismo diseño del pantalón de trabajar
La Hombría
La verdadera hombría no necesitas mostrarse o querer imponerse, simplemente es original, innata, tampoco es muestra de poderío o de abusos. Es ser sencillo, piadoso servicial ; NO prepotente , autoritario, arrogante, que llega a la casa dando voces y gritos ¡ ES QUE YO SOY EL QUE LLEVO LOS PANTALONES EN LA CASA !; abusando así a su esposa y a sus hijos. Pensar que se es hombre por que usa pantalones es un POBRE CONCEPTO DE HOMBRIA; muchos grandes HOMBRES en otro tiempo, nunca vistieron pantalones pero SI DEJARON UNA HUELLA MUY SIGNIFICATIVA de su hombria.
Algunos hombres lo que hacen es escudarse en un disfraz para ocultar su virilidad detrás de una prenda de vestir, y escudándose en la figura errada de hombría, cometer abusos y causar dolor al interior de la familia. El carácter varonil No lo define una prenda de vestir, al contrario, lo distorsiona es como si se usara un mascara de verdugo o si se quisiera esconder para no enfrentar lo que debe ser la realidad.
Cuando no se tiene un carácter bien estructurado, entonces se busca en forma errática algo en que apoyarse , como el atuendo, la capacitación el apellido o buen Nombre , las riquezas , el puesto o cargo que desempeña , y en última instancia la fuerza, para dar la imagen o intentar guardar las apariencias de su virilidad
El pantalón es un símbolo EQUIVOCADO de autoridad, es un símbolo sexista .Es un símbolo de exhibicionismo. Es la prenda menos favorable para el varon por su anatomia: (usa un torniquete llamado cinturon que divide la circulacion de la sangre en dos partes: La ropa interior en la entre pierna tambien comprime dicha parte de la antomia, y mucha falta de ventilacion las vellocidades de las piernas en la mayoria de los varones les producen muchisimo sofoco trastornando la buena circulacion de la sangre; el testiculo del varon tiene un movimiento muy propio y autonomo, que le demanda espacio para llevar acabo ese movimiento; pero con las prendas que comprimen tanto los genitales del hombre lo unico que se producen son molestias y trastornos de salud, como esterilidad, impotencia y posiblemente cancer del testiculo. La bota del pantalon es la parte mas antihigienica, pues permanece contra el piso o muy cerca del suelo.
LOS GRANDES INCONVENIENTES DE LA FALDA ES QUE SEA MUY CORTA O MUY ANGOSTA; si la falda va por debajo de la rodilla, tan ancha como la persona la quiera usar no va a tener inconveniente. CLARO LA FALDA DEL VARON O LOS VESTIDOS NO BIFURCADOS NO DEBERAN LLEVAR ENCAJES, RECOGIDOS O BOLEROS O ADORNOS, O ESTAMPADOS TIPICAMENTE FEMENINOS. Deberán llevar un prense adelante y otro atrás para que no se ciñan los glúteos ni los genitales, y así no mostraran nada de su desnudez

AMM

What you have written does resonate with me…

What I experience is that sometimes I'll look at myself wearing a skirt, or tights, or a whole ensemble with a skirt, or think about what I might make or assemble, and suddenly I feel like, "who IS this person?"… I didn’t use to ask myself that question; I knew I was OK and that was it. Or so I thought.

There's also an aspect that has to do with the split between inner self and public persona… Perhaps this is shared by many of us, especially those (like me) who haven’t completely gotten out of the skirt closet.

I am a man. Not a woman or androgyn or something else trapped inside a man's body. That is also something I am sure of. I know I don’t want to be or pass as a woman; I just want to wear what society labels as women’s clothes- and even at that, not everything.

And when I find myself wanting things that I've been raised to think that only girls/women like, I can tell myself as often as I want that it's just social convention, there's still a little voice that pipes up every now and then that this is all proof that despite everything I've always believed, deep inside, I really am a woman. Totally, yes, totally, completely agree with you on that. And, it brings up the point that if it’s really only about clothes – as we keep telling ourselves, then why do I (we) want them so much? Can it really be only the clothes themselves (comfort, fabric used, style…), what they represent (it’s feminine), a combination of both or is it something else altogether?

Even if I get used to seeing myself looking in some way "unmasculine" by traditional standards, there's the question of how I feel about other people seeing me this way. Indeed, showing an unmasculine image of ourselves takes a big set of cahoonas, but I guess that CRFriend said it best : By the time that the average bloke gets to the point where he's got the cubes to don a skirt in public, he's got more masculinity than most; he's got confidence, he's got conviction, and he's got, for lack of a better word, "intestinal fortitude". He's got the wherewital to make his way in the world, in his way, on his terms. He has the courage to stand alone and proclaim his personal victory. Can one get much more "masculine" than that?

All right: back to trying to figure things out. In the mean time, thank you all very much for sharing, especially you AMM.

[Peter v]

rosario
I beg your pardon. Could you translate?
Thank you.

Peter v

[gshubert]

I went to babelfish.altavista.com, and got the gist of what was written; and my wife pointed out what a few of the words meant that weren't translated. It begins with (very) roughly this:

Men's trousers are uncomfortable and unhealthful. The first clothes humans wore were like tunics. Trousers are leftover from the industrial revolution.

I agree with the general tone, as far as I can understand it from babelfish.

[r1g0r]

possibly a divergance, but this thread made me wonder:

a man or woman of heterosexual leanings discovers that they are transexual, goes through the usual process, and then transitions to being a heterosexual woman or man.

this scenario is actually quite normal. a m2f trans-person is as likely to switch sexual preferences as they are to keep preferences, and the same goes for a f2m trans-person.

at what point does this individual stop being a member of one sex, and become a member of the other?

when they discover they are trans- ?
when they start homonal therapy?
when they get some parts removed?

do they NEVER change from one sex to the other?

some persons assert that post-op transexuals are self-deluded, and are merely mutilated members of their original sex.

some say these people were ALWAYS their newly assigned sex.

any thoughts on this might shed light on this thread's subject...

[Bob]

From what I've read, I believe that hormones have the biggest role in our sense of gender. They affect our mood, our desires, and our physiology. They affect the way we build muscle mass, the distribution of fat on our bodies, breast development.

I would say that once a transsexual is firmly on hormones and the hormones have had time to work, that person "really is" of the new gender. As long as a transsexual keeps taking hormones, that person is, for all intents and purposes, of that gender.

Surgey of genitals is less important, i.e. in non-intimate settings.

Gender change is not an instantaneous process. There is no "one point" at which it happens. Physiologicaly, transition involves cutting off the body's supply of old hormones and putting it on a new set of hormones. It's described as a second puberty. With puberty, there's no "one point" at which one becomes 100% sexually mature; same thing with gender transition. Just like puberty is an awkward time, so is transsexual transition.

[r1g0r]

part of the yin-yang philosophy is that nothing is absolute (except maybe vodka). in the darkness there is light, and the light casts shadows.

so maybe the logical conclusion of my quandry is that we are not purely male or female.

after all, we each have physical vestiges of the opposite sex and produce the hormones of both (unless there is some abnormality or illness).

then again, maybe i'm full of $h!t...

[Peter v]

To r1g0r ....."then again, maybe i'm full of $h!t... "

Or hormones...

Peter v

[AMM]

.. Gender change is not an instantaneous process. There is no "one point" at which it happens. ... It's described as a second puberty. ..

part of the yin-yang philosophy is that nothing is absolute (except maybe vodka). in the darkness there is light, and the light casts shadows.

"Toto? I don't think we're in Kansas any more...."