Insecurity about our masculinity

[AMM]

Hoping that SkirtCafe is ready for some discussion of serious gender issues and the 8-letter "F" word (dare I say the word? Psst: it's "feelings"), I'd like to start a discussion of what's perhaps the biggest "rhinoceros in the living room" at SkirtCafe: the fear that most of us guys here have in some form or other that we are going to compromise (or even lose) our masculinity.

I'm reminded of a quote from a spot that NPR (National Public Radio) is airing for the program "This American Life", in which Ira Glass says something like, "even guys who you would think couldn't possibly have any doubts about their masculinity -- are insecure about their masculinity."

Here at SkirtCafe, you see plenty of posts where "that skirt looks very masculine" is used as a compliment, or where people say they won't wear this or that because it seems too feminine. I have an urge to push the envelope of what men can wear, but I still find myself wondering, when making a skirt, if I am making it "too feminine" for me to feel comfortable wearing it in public. Speaking for myself, I notice this fear that contact with too much femininity (deliberately not defined!) will push me past some invisible point of no return, as if I might wake up one day to discover that I had unknowingly triggered an irreversible sex change.

In the "muggle world" beyond SkirtCafe, masculinity seems to be one of those things you can't just achieve once and then go on to other things: you have to keep re-proving that you're a Real Man. It crops up in practically every movie and TV show in some form or another. People get killed every day (even every hour) by people defending their masculinity. And it takes so little contact with that masculinity-annihilating antimatter "femininity" to blow it all away. For example, discovering that your favorite T-shirt which you bought at a flea market was originally marketed as a "women's" shirt.

When you think about it logically, the whole thing is a little ridiculous: isn't a glance inside your trousers (or under your kilt ) enough to tell whether you're really a man? And the fear of "losing masculinity" drives so many men to do so many idiotic things.

As far as I can tell, women are not driven by a similar anxiety of being caught not being "feminine enough" (though no doubt they have other, equally debilitating fears.) This suggests to me that this anxiety is probably not hard-wired into us.

I'm wondering: what (a) past experiences and (b) present thought processes drive so many of us to be so worried about our masculinity all the time?

-- AMM

[SkirtedViking]

...as I always say masculinity is something inner,so as a complete freestyler do not to bother what is masculine or not no matter what item.As you said women do not bother to be feminine enough so it seems that we race against ourelves even within the boundaries of this splendid forum.believ me I stand for the same freedom that women have,not to be expected to be feminine in terms of clothing and shoes and still considered regular women,so men should do the same according to each one's personal estimation.

[JeffB1959]

To add my two cents worth, I've always viewed masculinity as a frame of mind, not something you can don like an article of clothing. When I used to crossdress, deep down inside, I knew I was still very much a man, even though I did everything I could to look, walk, talk and act like a woman, which was probably why I never succeeded very well at the practice.

Masculinity shouldn't be determined by what we wear, that's just plain ridiculous. Clothes are just that, clothes, not badges of honor that says to the world that we're men, or that women are women. I've never been insecure about my masculinity, so I have no need to demonstrate same to anyone here, it's that very sort of mindset that results in violence, and that I know all too well since I live in an inner city environment where young black men are all too willing, if not eager to kill in order to reinforce their own overinflated sense of masculinity. Back in the day, when someone questioned your manhood, you took it outside and settled things with your fists, that was stupid enough, but today, if you're "dissed", the next step is almost invariably to pull a gun and blast away. And for what? To prove that you're a man.

I could step out my front door today in a miniskirt, pantyhose and pumps and know that I'm still very much a man, regardless of what I happen to be wearing. To associate clothing with manhood is wrong on so many levels it isn't funny, it's all about what's inside, not what's outside. but I guess that for some, it's a mindset we can't quite shake ourselves from. It's understandable, but needlessly debilitating. I for one don't subscribe to that magazine.

[Pythos]

Something some posters here are forgetting is that women were held to social standards for a very long time. Certain things were considered "un-lady like"

I remember how girls were excluded from school baseball games because they were girls, which I always found unbelieveably unfair.

Women were not allowed to vote until the Women's sufferage movement.

This is one reason I get mad at women who laugh at men wanting the freedom of clothing choice. They themselves are part of a group that was limited by social standards, and yet here they are continuing limitatiions on men.

I also get up set when I see the kinds of guys women feel obligated to go out with.

Masculinity is one of the most fragile things on this planet, and should perhaps be wiped off the face of the earth, cause it is now really no longer needed. But then again I look at ultra feminism, and wonder if these socially imposed expectations are the problem.

Let me get this straight, you are not going to give me a chance because of what I like to attire myself in, but you will date this slob, with no job, on drugs, and cheats on you.

Now I know this is not the usual case, but it is surprisingly common.

Personally I think that kinda man should be left dateless and desperate. I think celebrities known to be cheating on their wives should be shunned and given no publicity.

I know those are pipe dreams.

[Emerald Witch]

I'd like to start a discussion of what's perhaps the biggest "rhinoceros in the living room" at SkirtCafe: the fear that most of us guys here have in some form or other that we are going to compromise (or even lose) our masculinity.

This is one of those times that as an outspoken and sometimes obtuse female I really need to be listening. So PLEASE, gentlemen -- TEACH ME!

I seriously do not understand this issue. I am SO glad AMM brought it up!

Women often laugh together about the "fragile male ego", but I doubt many (if any) of us understand what the heck we're talking about. I would like to learn a little sensitivity now.

Here at SkirtCafe, you see plenty of posts where "that skirt looks very masculine" is used as a compliment, or where people say they won't wear this or that because it seems too feminine.

This is an especially excellent and tricky subject. From early childhood we are taught that to call a boy "pretty" is an insult, and to mistake a man for a woman is severely offensive. Yet I tell my son (seven years old now, and showing no signs at all of wanting to wear girly clothes or being at all homosexual, though if he were it wouldn't bother me) all the time that I think he's "beautiful" to me, or that his hair looks "pretty" that way. Of course I do tell him it looks "handsome" too, but I'd be just as likely to tell him MY hair looks "handsome" today.

My son accepts this as "just the way Mom talks, because she loves me so much". (We are extremely close.) He knows everyone else in the world generally doesn't talk about boys as being pretty.

My goal in stretching his awareness of gender-bias acceptability is so that he can grow up to be more tolerant than the general population seems to be right now. I have no doubt of his security in himself. He is just about the most stable kid I've ever seen. Goes out and plays and never doubts for a moment that even if the world isn't fair, at least he is loveable and that somehow things are going to be worked out. Always lands on his feet.

But in a world where men are intentionally wearing skirts, yet still wrestling with the question of whether the skirt is "manly" enough... how do you phrase a compliment? To me, the skirt could be covered in pink sequins and I would have no doubt about his masculinity, if he simply moved and acted in a way that was confidently male. Heck, let's finish the fantasy and put him in hose, strappy high heels, lipstick and full makeup, maybe a cashmere sweater and painted nails... and to me personally, as long as his voice was deep enough to be recognizable as masculine, he went by a masculine name, and he didn't put on fake breasts (I really don't like fake things) I could still find him attractively masculine.

Of course, men whose voices are naturally high do have a bit of a problem there... but I can't please everyone. I just happen to be attracted to men with deep voices. Hey, sue me, I've got a preference.

So, clothing is really just gift-wrap, as far as I'm concerned. And I LIKE pretty packages! But it's the person inside the clothes that matters. If he's rude, mean, self-centered, disrespectful, cheap, dishonest, has horrible manners, cannot hold a decent conversation, cannot be faithful, is cowardly, is bigoted, is basically a twerp in general, then why bother? But if he is a wonderful man who would take care of his lady and respect her, honor her, protect her, work hard for his family, has a beautiful mind, a beautiful soul... then what the heck difference does the outside really make? Even if it ISN'T my personal fantasy of the best-dressed man.

Geez. Folks gotta learn to prioritize. It's a terribly immature mentality to think you can find true love, happiness, and respect based on what kind of car he drives.

Lord. I'm ranting again, aren't I?

I just get so passionate about stuff. Be glad you're not my bathroom mirror! It gets HOURS of me talking about stuff I can't shut up about.

[ChristopherJ]

AMM - maybe it would have been better if you had made the thread title: 'Insecurity about my masculinity'. I think that would be a perfectly good way of introducing the topic to this forum - and also a chance for you to share your own thoughts and feelings around the subject.

As for me -

I'd like to start a discussion of what's perhaps the biggest "rhinoceros in the living room" at SkirtCafe: the fear that most of us guys here have in some form or other that we are going to compromise (or even lose) our masculinity.

I have never once thought that wearing a skirt or tights or whatever would compromise my masculinity. As far as I am concerned, my masculinity is hardwired into me and so is not affected by exterior influences.

In the "muggle world" beyond SkirtCafe, masculinity seems to be one of those things you can't just achieve once and then go on to other things: you have to keep re-proving that you're a Real Man. It crops up in practically every movie and TV show in some form or another. People get killed every day (even every hour) by people defending their masculinity. And it takes so little contact with that masculinity-annihilating antimatter "femininity" to blow it all away. For example, discovering that your favorite T-shirt which you bought at a flea market was originally marketed as a "women's" shirt.

You only have to keep re-proving yourself as a man if you buy into the TV shows and movies as being reality. In the real world - or in my real world anyhow - a "real man" in the John Wayne style - would just be laughed at.

It is true that people get killed or injured every day by other people supposedly defending what they think is their masculinity. But they are not really. What they are defending is their pride. Their false pride, actually - as the real problem is their insecurity - which they cover with this false pride. That's very different to real masculinity. A "real man" simply would not get into a fight over trivial issues. Only bullies and insecure people would do that.

Feelings.

Good subject and well worth introducing into this forum - as I am sure that many people here have to deal with all sorts of feelings around wearing skirts etc. I do. My main issue is one of fear. But that is a normal thing for me as I have a big problem with anxiety attacks etc. and take medication to reduce it a bit. I get this fear just before going out of my apartment in a skirt and for the first few minutes out. After that I am fine. I don't feel any fear at all. Wearing a skirt actually calms me down. It's just the first few minutes out in the "real world" for me that are hard - and I just have to force myself through it.

Having spent a total of over 2 years in residential rehab and follow up facilities for alcoholism - I am well up on talking about 'feelings' - as that's all we did - every bloody day! Still - it worked. I've been sober a good while now.

[Departed Member]

AMM - maybe it would have been better if you had made the thread title: 'Insecurity about my masculinity'. I think that would be a perfectly good way of introducing the topic to this forum - and also a chance for you to share your own thoughts and feelings around the subject.

You only have to keep re-proving yourself as a man if you buy into the TV shows and movies as being reality. In the real world - or in my real world anyhow - a "real man" in the John Wayne style - would just be laughed at.

It is true that people get killed or injured every day by other people supposedly defending what they think is their masculinity. But they are not really. What they are defending is their pride. Their false pride, actually - as the real problem is their insecurity - which they cover with this false pride. That's very different to real masculinity. A "real man" simply would not get into a fight over trivial issues. Only bullies and insecure people would do that.

Well said, CJ!

When you think about it logically, the whole thing is a little ridiculous: isn't a glance inside your trousers (or under your kilt ) enough to tell whether you're really a man?

True, but the contents of one's tr*users/skirt/Kilt don't have any real bearing on being 'masculine'! Does a bloke who's lost his 'bits' through accident, cancer or (even) choice become any less 'masculine? Does the fact that the "P" word seems to crop up in so many gameshows/comedy sketches, etc., etc., these days, indicate a (rapidly) growing insecurity amongst blokes in general. Over-compensation (as CJ indicates), leads to false(?) pride, ego and 'macho' behaviour.

[crfriend]

I have never once thought that wearing a skirt or tights or whatever would compromise my masculinity. As far as I am concerned, my masculinity is hardwired into me and so is not affected by exterior influences.

I suspect that it's not quite how you feel, it's more of how you feel about others' perception of you (any "you"; I'm using it in the general form). For instance, I know full well that no matter what I'm wearing on the outside I'm still the same guy on the inside -- where it actually matters, mind you. But, from time to time, I cannot help but wonder what my "strange" (by modern western mores) attire will cause people to think of me before they've even had a chance to speak to me -- and this is what induces anxiety.

You only have to keep re-proving yourself as a man if you buy into the TV shows and movies as being reality. In the real world - or in my real world anyhow - a "real man" in the John Wayne style - would just be laughed at.

That's likely the same in most places, but again, it's the perception (real or false) that lots of guys seem to have, and a way should be found to debunk the perception if it's demonstrably false.

So, it may seem that we're not questioning our masculinity in any meaningful sense, it's that we're questioning how people will perceive us in fast-paced encounters where there's not the time to get to know what's "under the covers". Are such encounters worth worrying about? I can't answer that concretely, but suspect that almost all of them can be discounted; how likely is it that you'll run into someone who takes a dim view of your attire and whom you run into later on in life who will remember it or hold it against you?

[Emerald Witch]

I suspect that it's not quite how you feel, it's more of how you feel about others' perception of you (edit)

I agree, CR. I think most of what we make ourselves anxious over has to do with our projections of our own anxieties onto others. I believe quite often this has to do with our childhood training.

I read in a women's magazine once about the frugality of saving certain items from one baby to the next, and they mentioned how silly it was to save diapers... not because they would spoil or anything, or because technology would hopelessly outdate them, but because what if they were pink GIRL diapers and your next baby happened to be a boy! Inconceivable.

It would obviously "endanger" that little baby boy's gender identity to have even a brush with a pink diaper for a few hours, so obviously the training to separate "girly" things from "boyish" things is pretty strong.

As they grow older, pretty much the best way for a girl to defend anything she didn't want boys to play with was to paint it pink, or to cover it in fairy stickers. And if a boy wanted to abscond with a girl's things anyway, the first thing he'd do is deface all that girlyness. Probably with a spray-can, if possible, for full coverage. Then slap some skulls-and-crossed-bones on top for good measure. Your basic rape and pillage scenario, playground style. All in the name of defending masculinity, because a boy just COULDN'T ride a pink bike. (Seen it happen.)

[Bob]

Funny thing, until the 1930's, pink was for boys and blue was for girls. That's why all the early Disney heroines are dressed in baby blue, not pink.

Back to the original question... I get my fundamental sense of masculine gender identity from the innate features of my body: my slender hips, my flat (and hairy) chest, my deep voice, and (recently) my receding hairline. There is nothing I can wear (not including fake body parts) that will change any of that.

[Emerald Witch]

Funny thing, until the 1930's, pink was for boys and blue was for girls. That's why all the early Disney heroines are dressed in baby blue, not pink.

Back to the original question... I get my fundamental sense of masculine gender identity from the innate features of my body: my slender hips, my flat (and hairy) chest, my deep voice, and (recently) my receding hairline. There is nothing I can wear (not including fake body parts) that will change any of that.

Interesting thought. Maybe if I flip it around I'll get another perspective.

"From whence to I get my feminine gender identity?"

Do I get it from my female body?

Well, I guess technically that could be said to be true... I mean, I AM female, so that really isn't up for debate... And I do dress in a feminine manner... (more so now than a few years ago, though).

hmmmm...

I really haven't thought about this.

In a recent sermon my preacher pointed out that it is traditional to consider masculine things to be superior to feminine things. She wasn't saying it is right to think this way, just that it is traditional.

Could it be said that the default is to female when things aren't "good enough" to make it all the way to masculine? OOOoooOOOOoooooooooo! Now don't hate me people! I'm just thowing ideas out! Remember I'm a woman myself! Of course I don't believe it, but the big question is WHY NOT???

Oh, finding definitions is haaaarrrrd sometimes.

I know I'm not a woman just because I'm a "failed" man. I'm a woman because.... Um... Uh...

Why the heck am I a woman? What is the difference? I know there are differences! I'm just having trouble defining them at the moment, in anything but physical terms.-

Almost anything you can say in general about men and women can be nullified if you take it to the group.

"Women are afraid of spiders" --but I'm not, and some men are.
"Women are bad at logic" --but I'm not, and LOTS of men are.
"Women wear skirts and dresses" --but most women I know don't, and most guys here do!
"Women played with Barbies as girls, and like pink" -- but I HATED Barbie, and NEVER wore pink!

Shucks. I guess in the end it DOES come down to your plumbing.

But it just (gut-feeling) seems like there should be more to it than that.

Somehow I just KNOW, as I melt into a man's arms, that I am a woman. No question in my mind.

But, heck, if I was gay would that make me any less a woman?

Man. Tough question.

Perhaps some gay women may be quite happy being women attracted to women. And then again, some may feel like God stuck them into the wrong body, and should have made them male.

Often I've imagined that in my next lifetime I will be born male. And I'll probably be either gay or bisexual, because I just can't imagine giving up men.

But even in this lifetime I can see that women are beautiful. I can admire them. I know they are soft and all that. It's just not what flips my switch.

Okay, I can tell I've done it again and talked probably a few lines too much. But since I really can't tell exactly where I should have shut up, I'm going to leave it all in and let you good folks just ignore the parts you didn't want to talk about, and answer only those parts you think are worth discussing.

[sapphire]

Interesting thread and, to me, confusing.

Why do people worry about gender identity? That's a real question, I'm not trying to be snide. It is something that I truly do not understand.

When I was tiny, I was told that I was a "girl". That label didn't mean a whole lot to me. My Mom dressed me infabulous dresses that she made and embroidered. I thought they were pretty and felt happy that I coulld wear such beautiful, unique clothing. The problem was that I couldn't roll around in the mud in that finery.

Through public school, I was forced to wear dresses, even when the weather made it inappropriate to do so. Standing at the bus stop in a blizzard in my fine ladylike clothes and with frostbitten toes did not make me feel feminine, just cold, miserable and angry that I was in a box that made me cold, miserable and angry.

When at 18 I was finally allowed to get a pair of jeans, I felt truly liberated. I could do what I wanted, sit the way I wanted, fall down, hike up a mountian and not have to worry about some idiot trying to look up my skirt.

In my earlier years, I had a great female form and was a pretty advacned seamstress. I made fabulous clothes. I didn't feel particularly feminine, just knew how to get the best possible look for my shape.

What did irk me were the men who felt entitled to have sex with me because they found me attractive. Grrr.

Then, if biologocal plumbing has anything to do with gener identity, I was in for a shock. At the age of 29 I had a hysterectomy. I didn't wonder if I was less feminine or more masculine; I was just happy that the pain was gone.

So in my case, I resist the label of masculine or feminine. I'm just me. If I want to dress girly, I will. If I want to go glam, I will. If I want to be androgenous, I'll do that. If I want to dress like a man I'll do that too. To me the mode of dress has nothing to do with who I am.

To me, gener identitiy is far less important than feeling at peace, accepting and loving who you are.

So here we are on a gorgeous early September day. I'm in a simple long dress, cut sort of like a "wife beater" undershirt, but long. Carl's wearing my black and pink, lace trimmed mini kilt. I look like I should be in a Gallo wine commercial and he just looks hot.

Diana

[Departed Member]

In a recent sermon my preacher pointed out that it is traditional to consider masculine things to be superior to feminine things. She wasn't saying it is right to think this way, just that it is traditional.

Is this a particular US trait, or something being persistantly re-inforced within 'modern' (including Christian and Catholic) religions elsewhere, too? Over the years, I've seen women's dominance within the family (in the UK) decline dramatically as they are continually urged (nay, pressured) to 'knuckle-under' and finally realise they are 'only' second class men. And, no, it's not men (outside the various so-styled 'fundamentalist' brigades), but the 'feminazis' who have the desire to so subjugate their fellow females. And before anyone squawks, I don't mean true 'feminists' who, despite appearances sometimes, believe in equality! Of course, some of my 'feminist' chums have come to realise that this means they have now trapped themselves (due to trying to adopt 'the' atypical feminist image) in the dullest bhurka of all time - jeans!

[AMM]

It's the end of a long, tiring day (as so often when I sit down to post), and this is a topic which I am not very clear on at all [1], so I hope you all will be indulgent with me if this is disorganized, rambling, lacking in proper quoting, and not expressing stuff as it should be expressed. And if it offends people here (entirely possible), I don't really mean to. (Or if I do, I'm on that river in Egypt )

I didn't say "Insecurity about my masculinity" because if it's just my insecurity that's the issue, I don't feel there's much point in my bringing it up here. It's not a philosophical or intellectual thing, but a gut feeling that I have, and I'd really rather hear from people who share these feelings in some form or other and are still struggling with them, rather than people who just want to talk about whether they make logical sense. Maybe it's sort of like people who've lost a baby wanting to hear from other people who've lost a baby. Or something. I'm not good at dealing with well-meaning advice from people who don't give me the feeling that they have some experience with what I'm experiencing -- it makes me feel like I'm being dissected, like one of those animals in high school biology class.

What I experience is that sometimes I'll look at myself wearing a skirt, or tights, or a whole ensemble with a skirt, or think about what I might make or assemble, and suddenly I feel like, "who IS this person?" I'll look in the mirror at a contra dance (or getting ready for one) and suddenly think, "what am I turning into, I look like some kind of 'fairy,' how on earth can I go out in public looking like that!!" with all of the shame and self-contempt that that implies. I usually get past that feeling by just refusing to think of it and acting as if I didn't feel that way. (That's part of the Guy Code -- the way to deal with any emotional issue is to just not think about it until it goes away ) I don't explicitly think, "how unmasculine," because these things aren't in words. But I'm sure it's related to my concept of gender, because I feel quite clearly that what I'm doing (and more) would all be OK if I were a girl. When I'm feeling this way, I keep thinking that this must be some kind of sick neurosis, that if I could just get over all my various complexes, I wouldn't have this neurotic compulsion to wear inappropriate clothing. (But it wouldn't be a neurosis if I were female, because none of the clothing would be inappropriate.)

There's also an aspect that has to do with the split between inner self and public persona that's always been an issue for me. In this case, even if I feel comfortable with myself in a skirt when I'm alone, feeling comfortable with a skirt when I'm that somewhat different person who exists when I'm with other people is another story.

Now this isn't the case for everything about me. For instance, I am a Quaker, and though I am usually not "in your face" about it, so that many people probably don't know it about me, and it's something that I imagine that some people might consider a little wierd ("don't they wear funny hats and make oatmeal or something?") I don't have a problem with people knowing it. My "public persona" seems to be comfortable with it.


I've been looking at the responses in this thread, and I hope you all will forgive and correct me if I'm misunderstanding what you all have written (a problem I often face when reading/writing/talking about difficult issues), but I have the impression that most people are saying that they don't really have these issues. Some seem to be telling how they've eliminated or avoided them, or how they're really other people's problem, or something. I wonder if maybe I'm the only person here who ever feels the way I do. Or maybe people do and aren't admitting it (cf. The Guy Code, above), which amounts to the same thing.

I think I'll stop here before I make a total idiot of myself ....

-- AMM

[1] My experience with a lot of problems -- both technical and non-technical -- is that by the time you are able to frame the problem in any sort of coherent fashion, you're 90% of the way to [re-]solving it.

[Skirt Chaser]

When you think about it logically, the whole thing is a little ridiculous: isn't a glance inside your trousers (or under your kilt ) enough to tell whether you're really a man? And the fear of "losing masculinity" drives so many men to do so many idiotic things.

I'm of two thoughts here. Men seem to have to earn/keep/defend their masculinity while women are taken to have femininity by default (unless looking particularly mannish). Take reproduction for example. A woman has her womanhood proven (for those few that need even that proof) by popping out one child while it takes fathering many children to be manly. Why? No idea.

The other thought isn't particularly constructive but perhaps instructive? Men in general appear to have a greater need for their parts to be praised. Granted that could be just a cultural perception. Don't know what it means but there does seem to be an element of needing to measure up to a standard while women don't concern themselves with that as often though plastic surgery seems to be changing that.