The things people will say

General discussion of skirt and kilt-based fashion for men, and stuff that goes with skirts and kilts.
STEVIE
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Re: The things people will say

Post by STEVIE »

Coder
I'd wager that you thought that yours was a straight question.
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Re: The things people will say

Post by Coder »

STEVIE wrote:
Sun Jan 12, 2020 3:39 pm
Coder
I'd wager that you thought that yours was a straight question.
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Steve.
If I'm not mistaking your comment, you mean to say that although I asked a simple question, the subject matter drifted rapidly away? I do that all the time when I'm in a conversation ("Look, a chicken!") so I'm not surprised when forum posts wander. As opposed to bite-sized social media, I prefer forums as the long-form writing tends to have longer/deeper/more meaningful conversations (excluding the trolls) even if the things discussed drift from the original question.
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Re: The things people will say

Post by Big and Bashful »

Thanks for the answers, it's good to know that like here in the land of Blighty, there are still pockets of sanity in the U.S. keeping their heads down and out of the news!
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Re: The things people will say

Post by moonshadow »

Coder wrote:
Sun Jan 12, 2020 1:38 pm
At the same time, I don't want people to think I'm trans, as I'm not, even though the trans advocates would say otherwise, which then begs the question - what the heck are you?
Last time I checked (and I do so daily) I'm a human male. :lol:

But seriously, I understand what you mean about the trans thing. I take no issue with transgender people, but I don't consider myself transgender.

As for my gender (since apparently it can differ from sex), honestly I really don't care. I am what I am. The world can and will make their own judgement. My only response is "come what may".

As for Jim, I have a great deal of respect and appreciation for his Christian convictions. If more people were like Jim, I do believe the world would be a better place.

Though I will have to offer a rebuttal on Christians only applying the old testament to the Jews... there are bill boards after bill boards and church signs after church signs that harp on old testament law. I see very little of "Gods love" discussed in these here parts. It's all "REPENT OR GO TO HELL!!!"

Additionally, only one passage quoted calls out an actual "abomination", and that is the crossdressing part. The other passages read like "soft guidelines".

So.... guess I'm an abomination then. Oh well. *shrugs*
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Re: The things people will say

Post by Pdxfashionpioneer »

Hello Coder,

Good for you that you opened up a pair of interesting conversations with a simple request, guidance on how to broach your skirt-wearing to your family.

When someone has it down. please enlighten me too. I tried discussing the topic of my wearing skirts and dresses at his and his wife's house and boy did I get an earful! In fact, he was so adamant, I could barely get a word in edgewise.

When I emailed my side of what I had hoped would be a discussion, he emailed me back to say he didn't want anything more to do with me. Period.

His Fundamentalist wife continued the dialog for a little bit beyond that because she fears for my immortal soul because of my skirtwearing. She insists she wouldn't call it "sinful," but I am at a loss as to how else to describe her position.

I addressed this issue with my brother and sister-in-law because I felt like there was a big hunk of my life I had to keep hidden from them otherwise. For some time I had considered my brother to be my best friend. Evidently not. A friend is someone who sees you for what you are and enjoys the view. A best friend, even more so; they'll defend who you are to the death. I guess I'm better off finding out now than when I needed that kind of support and found out the hard way my brother wasn't going to provide it. My biggest consolation is that nothing lasts forever.

My advice based on my experience is first, why do you want your parents to know? You've suggested that your father is old enough that you would just as soon spare him the mental exercise. If so, you can't tell your mother either. Otherwise, you're putting her in the position of having to keep a secret from your father.

Carl's advice rings pretty true, but I don't know as I would start the conversation by just showing up in a skirt. For some reason I have the impression you still live with your parents, if so, raising this issue with your parents could lead to your not having a place to stay with just a literal moment's notice. In short, have contingency plans to back all of the worst case scenarios.

What are the possible economic ramifications?

Once you've thought all through, if the answer is still to tell them, then be all means bring it up. And try to be nonchalant. Fake it, if you have to. But unfortunately, this is the path you have to take if you're going to tell on yourself.

Hello Big & Bashful,

Most everyone has answered your question more or less the way I would have.

My only tweaks are:
  • The US NE seaboard states, Maine through Maryland and the West Coast states are all quite liberal.
    The Southeastern states comprise the "Bible Belt." If you listen to them long enough you'd swear they missed the memo that announced the end of our (anything but) Civil War.
    Even in our cities and universities on the aforementioned coasts you will find conservatives.
    When it comes to living one's day-to-day life, most Americans, like most people in general, pretty much live according to the maxim, "Live and let live."
    Our political polarization is probably most accurately dated back to the days when Newt Gingrich was Speaker of our House of Representatives and made "compromise" a dirty word and therefore was originated by our Republican politicians and cast into concrete by our media, two-party system and our inherent distrust of government in general.
    If it is our current President that is causing you to think that maybe you didn't understand us Yanks as well as you thought you did, consider this, most American voters voted for someone else in the last Presidential election. In fact, Hilary Clinton received over 3 million more votes than Trump. He got to be President as a result of a system that is probably unique to the US called the Electoral College. (PLEASE don't ask for an explanation as to what it is and why! Suffice it to say that it is a "Rube Goldberg" mechanism that only a committee of Americans, called the Constitutional Convention, could create as a result of our long-term association with pre-19th century Brits.)


My only disagreement with what Jim said about Christians and Christianity is that most Christian theologians would agree with Jim's assertions. Most Christians, myself included, tend to default to taking the Bible fairly literally because that is how we were raised; but, in our adulthood tend to cherry-pick the portions of the Bible we cling to and discard the rest as out of date or irrelevant. The Bible study classes I have taken were based on the belief that little if any of the Bible can be taken as literal fact. Doing so, misses the deeper reality under the stories and many were never intended as anything BUT stories -- Jonah's story being a classic example.

Too many Christians have debated what kind of sea creature could possibly have swallowed Jonah, let alone kept him alive for several days and never give a moment's thought to what the story is really about; namely, what happens to us when we try to ignore a call from God and how much we can accomplish when we answer it.

Similarly, Jesus and the Council of 48 AD dispensed with all of the laws, rules and regulations that Christians inherited from the Jewish religion (Originally, Christianity wasn't named after Jesus, but was referred to as "The Way" and was practiced as a form of Judaism.), but too many 21st Century Christians act as though they haven't gotten the memo and a whole strain of Christianity, Fundamentalism, ignores those historical facts.

However, Fundamentalists are a minority -- a very vocal minority, but a small minority -- of even American Christians so please don't tar all of us with their brush.

Most of Christ's message on how to live one's life can be summed up in one short quote, "Love thy neighbor." As to how we dress, He told His disciples in His "Lilies of the Field" sermon to not worry about what they were to wear. I personally take that to mean neither He nor the Father much care, just so long as you're clothed and that God will see to that. So neither should your neighbor care.
David, the PDX Fashion Pioneer

Social norms aren't changed by Congress or Parliament; they're changed by a sufficient number of people ignoring the existing ones and publicly practicing new ones.
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Re: The things people will say

Post by Coder »

Pdxfashionpioneer wrote:
Mon Jan 13, 2020 4:58 am
Good for you that you opened up a pair of interesting conversations with a simple request, guidance on how to broach your skirt-wearing to your family.

...

My advice based on my experience is first, why do you want your parents to know? You've suggested that your father is old enough that you would just as soon spare him the mental exercise. If so, you can't tell your mother either. Otherwise, you're putting her in the position of having to keep a secret from your father.

...

Carl's advice rings pretty true, but I don't know as I would start the conversation by just showing up in a skirt. For some reason I have the impression you still live with your parents, if so, raising this issue with your parents could lead to your not having a place to stay with just a literal moment's notice. In short, have contingency plans to back all of the worst case scenarios.

...

Once you've thought all through, if the answer is still to tell them, then be all means bring it up. And try to be nonchalant. Fake it, if you have to. But unfortunately, this is the path you have to take if you're going to tell on yourself.
Thanks! Yeah, a lot of issues surrounding this... I honestly think my sister will be the ultimate issue, not my parents (she freaked out over my dad wearing our mom's fuzzy leopard socks, as if it was some big sin - "those are women's socks". My mom just sighed/rolled her eyes at her. I'm pretty sure I laughed a little at her.). Living at home complicates matters... but I haven't met anyone yet, probably never will, and am buying the house in the future, so no point in wasting money. "Wanting" to wear skirts won't be an issue - "wearing" them could certainly be.

Honestly, if it weren't for the internet I wouldn't be this worried. I've spend countless days scouring different "communities" trying to find out where I fit in (as a way to analyze myself and my motivations), and always end up back at men in skirts. That is to say, it's just fashion for me, and this is where I feel most comfortable. But the majority of stuff regarding skirt wearing that is out there is just icky, IMHO, as it encompasses more behaviors than just fashion (and more than skirt wearing), and I don't know if they will be able to make that distinction without a lot of help.
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skirtpettiman
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Re: The things people will say

Post by skirtpettiman »

Jim wrote:
Sun Jan 12, 2020 1:31 pm
moonshadow wrote:
Sun Jan 12, 2020 10:16 am
Well, the scriptures are pretty clear on crossdressing and being an effeminate man. As for pastoral robes, I believe it is commanded in Exodous for men to wear trousers when approaching God (apparently they did exist during biblical times)

There is nothing wrong with ignoring passages we don't align with, after all, virtually everybody does this. But if your church doesn't condone effeminate men or those who wear women's garments than you basically have two choices, nix the skirts or nix the church.

I doubt a hostile church body will be swayed on this matter. There are several Christians on this site that somehow reconcile their skirt wearing with their faith, perhaps they can weigh in.
That sounds like an invitation. I'll accept.

In Deuteronomy 22:5, we read, "A woman shall not wear a man's garment, nor shall a man put on a woman's cloak, for whoever does these things is an abomination to the LORD your God."

The chapter continues:
Moses wrote: 9 Do not plant your vineyard with two types of seed; otherwise, the entire harvest, both the crop you plant and the produce of the vineyard, will be defiled. 10 Do not plow with an ox and a donkey together. 11 Do not wear clothes made of both wool and linen. 12 Make tassels on the four corners of the outer garment you wear.
Most Christians believe the Old Testament law was binding on the Jewish people, not the Gentile converts. This was a big controversy in the early church with the conservatives arguing “It is necessary to circumcise them and to command them to keep the law of Moses!” (Acts 15.5) The book of Act records the resulting Council of Jerusalem, about 48 AD, where the church leaders decided,
the apostles and elders wrote: For it was the Holy Spirit’s decision — and ours — to put no greater burden on you than these necessary things: 29 that you abstain from food offered to idols, from blood, from eating anything that has been strangled, and from sexual immorality. You will do well if you keep yourselves from these things. --Acts 15.28-29
A little later Paul wrote:
Paul wrote: [Christ] made of no effect the law consisting of commands and expressed in regulations, so that He might create in Himself one new man from the two, resulting in peace. - Ephesians 2.15
I would conclude that those Christians who criticize skirts based on Deuteronomy 22:5 are not understanding the New Testament, and if they are not wearing tassels on the four corners of their outer garments are also being hypocritical.

The only New Testament verse I'm aware of that might be used against skirt-wearing is 1 Corinthians 6.9. The King James Bible reads
Or know ye not that the unrighteous shall not inherit the kingdom of God? Be not deceived: neither fornicators, nor idolaters, nor adulterers, nor effeminate, nor abusers of themselves with men, ...
The Greek work the KJV translates as effeminate is μαλακός, malakos, meaning "soft". Modern translations usually conclude this refers to a type of homosexual practice (a different controversy that I don't think we should deal with here).

Of course, in response to Deuteronomy, we could add the arguments that the experts, the fashion designers, have pronounced that there is now just clothing, not men's clothing and women's clothing. There is also the fact that the word "man" in Deuteronomy is not the usual word, but one that may be better interpreted as "warrior". This could be a command to not avoid military service by pretending to be a woman.
I concur with Jim's quotes having done some study into this a few years ago and came to similar conclusions. Thus I was able to reconcile my faith with my skirt wearing.
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Re: The things people will say

Post by Coder »

skirtpettiman wrote:
Mon Jan 13, 2020 5:13 pm
I concur with Jim's quotes having done some study into this a few years ago and came to similar conclusions. Thus I was able to reconcile my faith with my skirt wearing.
Thanks for the quotes - it helps. I'm pretty much reconciled myself - but having these on hand gives me some things to study, research, and so forth.
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skirtpettiman
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Re: The things people will say

Post by skirtpettiman »

moonshadow wrote:
Mon Jan 13, 2020 2:40 am
Coder wrote:
Sun Jan 12, 2020 1:38 pm
At the same time, I don't want people to think I'm trans, as I'm not, even though the trans advocates would say otherwise, which then begs the question - what the heck are you?
Last time I checked (and I do so daily) I'm a human male. :lol:

But seriously, I understand what you mean about the trans thing. I take no issue with transgender people, but I don't consider myself transgender.

As for my gender (since apparently it can differ from sex), honestly I really don't care. I am what I am. The world can and will make their own judgement. My only response is "come what may".

As for Jim, I have a great deal of respect and appreciation for his Christian convictions. If more people were like Jim, I do believe the world would be a better place.

Though I will have to offer a rebuttal on Christians only applying the old testament to the Jews... there are bill boards after bill boards and church signs after church signs that harp on old testament law. I see very little of "Gods love" discussed in these here parts. It's all "REPENT OR GO TO HELL!!!"

Additionally, only one passage quoted calls out an actual "abomination", and that is the crossdressing part. The other passages read like "soft guidelines".

So.... guess I'm an abomination then. Oh well. *shrugs*
I wouldn't consider you or myself as crossdressers i.e. men who dress to look like women. So I wouldn't consider either of us to be abominations. I'm in agreement with Jim's commentary on this matter having come to similar conclusions after doing some studies a few years ago.
Hope
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Re: The things people will say

Post by Hope »

As an European catholic, I'm amazed by the way American people read the Bible! We have also in France many catholic fundamentalist who think that a man wearing a skirt has a one way ticket to hell!
But mainly Christians here are open-minded and are able to accept who I am as I am!
I don't think we have such a literal lecture of the Bible as you may have in the Christian belt in US. (At least, I hope so) 😉
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Re: The things people will say

Post by bobmoore »

moonshadow wrote: Well, the scriptures are pretty clear on crossdressing and being an effeminate man
Yes they are.
As for pastoral robes, I believe it is commanded in Exodous for men to wear trousers when approaching God (apparently they did exist during biblical times)
. No. There is no such command. Neither the Hebrew or Greek texts say anything like it. The garments to be worn by the High Priest were of linen: a coat, a turban, a sash, and undergarments
There is nothing wrong with ignoring passages we don't align with, after all, virtually everybody does this.
There is everything wrong with that. Either the Scriptures are God's word to his people, or they are not. There is no picking and choosing because those who do that are following themselves, not God, because their basic assumption is that the text isn't really "God breathed", or that "men, carried along by the Spirit, spoke from God". But keep in mind that the Bible is not written to the world at large, but to Gods people as instruction on godly living.

Just for information. I am an ordained Ruling Elder, and ordained Deacon in the conservative Presbyterian Church in America (PCA), and am currently serving an even more conservative church, the Associate Reformed Presbyterian Church (ARP). I teach an adult class on the Westminster Confession that is attended even by the Pastor because sound knowledge of Christian doctrine is not optional for believers.
"You can lead a liberal to truth, but you can't make it think."
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Re: The things people will say

Post by bobmoore »

Let me also observe that there is a paucity of intelligent exegesis of scripture. It has become fashionable to cherry pick or entirely ignore it and still claim saving faith. Jesus comments in Matthew 7 on people who are convinced that they are saved when in fact Jesus NEVER knew them. They were never his in the first place because of those that the Father gives him he "will lose not one", and "All that the Father gives me will come to me". Think of this: Jesus asks this question, "Why do you call me Lord, and not do what I say?" Seeing as how the universe and everything in it was created by Jesus one would think that men would take a serious interest in what he has to say.

It is true that the ceremonial laws, dietary laws, and such were specifically ended by the sacrifice of Christ. But the moral law of God remains in full force for everyone. God, who says repeatedly of himself, "I am the LORD, I do not change", pronounced certain things to be abomination. They are still abomination despite what various apostate "churches" might say.

But a man in a skirt, not pretending to be anything but a man in a skirt, breaks no biblical prohibition.
"You can lead a liberal to truth, but you can't make it think."
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Re: The things people will say

Post by Kirbstone »

In Christ's time, before and for a long time after that, the normal garb for both sexes was unbifurcated, hanging from the shoulders for ladies, but belted and waisted tunic-style for fighting men, leaving the from-the-shoulder garments for non combatants, i.e. most male citizens, senators and such like.
Full-length clerical robes are directly descended from the garments worn by learned folk in Biblical times.

Tom
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Re: The things people will say

Post by floatingmetal »

Coder wrote:
Mon Jan 13, 2020 3:36 pm
I've spend countless days scouring different "communities" trying to find out where I fit in (as a way to analyze myself and my motivations), and always end up back at men in skirts. That is to say, it's just fashion for me, and this is where I feel most comfortable. But the majority of stuff regarding skirt wearing that is out there is just icky, IMHO, as it encompasses more behaviors than just fashion (and more than skirt wearing), and I don't know if they will be able to make that distinction without a lot of help.
There you go then. It's just clothes for you. Doesn't have to be anything else. I introduced me wearing a dress (on one day) and skirts (two days) to my work this week and got a null (either they really didn't notice, or were ignoring it until they could ask anyone except me) to very favourable reaction. I had talked about it with one colleague but not anyone else - I just turned up dressed as I wanted to. The dress day was more feminine than probably most here would want to go for but today's outfit, including a male shirt I've worn to work numerous times before and a knee-length green cord skirt that wasn't particularly feminine (I've attached a picture - it wasn't intended for upload here and my phone isn't one for selfies but it'll give an idea.)

As I expressed it when talking to one colleague, I'm the same inside just outside there are nicer fabrics, more interesting colours and patterns. And often, no or tiny pockets. You can't have everything...
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Re: The things people will say

Post by Coder »

Congrats! I’m hopeful the same will be for me, soon, I keep saying soon.

The thing is I’ve been a jeans/sneakers/pop culture t-shirt person for SO long (with the occasional fashionable sweater), I’m a bit concerned it’ll be MORE of a shock being dressed up than actually wearing a skirt. Like, my version of dressy is a plain t-shirt and slacks with a pair of dark Keens. I’m having trouble accepting my t-shirts in context of the skirts I have - they sorta don’t work well. At least, not all of my shirts and skirts go together. Some do.

Now is kinda the best time for me - with sweater weather I can still wear a top that is normal for me.
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