The things people will say

General discussion of skirt and kilt-based fashion for men, and stuff that goes with skirts and kilts.
Coder
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The things people will say

Post by Coder »

I’m trying to find the courage to discuss skirt wearing with my folks, as I’d rather they find out from me rather than the grapevine. My dad had to have his gallbladder out, so spent a few days helping out. There were two incidences where the perfect situation was setup for me to interject something - but neither time felt right.

One time, a nurse says in a sickly sweet womanly manner to my mom, “oh, after eating at the cafeteria, you should check the gift shop out. It has such wonderful things”. After we ate, my mom said to me “Why do women think all women like shopping in gift shops?” - I cringed a bit as I though in another time and place, this would be a good time to interject some skirt-related humor.

Second incident was on discharge. My mom casually remarked to my dad as she helped him get dressed, “You wouldn’t have to worry about that if you were wearing a dress”. I’m like, oh man, why here?

Anyhow, it got me thinking. How often for you hear off the cuff remarks like these, and what would your response be? The lizard brain in me thinks remarks like those are simply said in jest (or in the case of the shop, fear of not conforming) and of my dad really wore a dress, or even suggested such a thing, the demeanor of said woman would change.

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Re: The things people will say

Post by crfriend »

Coder wrote:
Sat Jan 11, 2020 4:24 pm
I’m trying to find the courage to discuss skirt wearing with my folks, as I’d rather they find out from me rather than the grapevine.
I rather suspect that there's no "gentle way" to introduce them to the concept; sometimes an "in your face" method is the only option open.

Discussing the matter beforehand gives them the upper hand; simply showing up sometime -- especially if asked -- puts you in charge of the situation. In the former, convention will likely guide their thoughts and they'll indicate displeasure over the matter which will tend to shut you down; in the latter, you immediately have the power to ask that age-old question, "Why?", and then back that up with other details if they can't get their heads around it. Note that if asked, you could colour the matter a little bit and say you got caught by surprise and came immediately "as you were".
My mom casually remarked to my dad as she helped him get dressed, “You wouldn’t have to worry about that if you were wearing a dress”.
Remarks like that happen in context, and can also be a form of humour. Possibly this was the first time you mom helped your dad get dressed -- quite unlike what things might have been like in years long gone by when your mom occasionally asked for some help in putting something fancy on (e.g. "Can you zip this up for me?"). I highly doubt there was any subtext to it.
How often for you hear off the cuff remarks like these, and what would your response be?
They're actually reasonably rare, but if one can interject something -- say like, "That makes sense." -- one might take a shot at it. However, I think the "in your face" approach still the best.

Here's hoping the best for your dad.
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Re: The things people will say

Post by STEVIE »

Hi Coder,
Depending on your local community it is likely to be when your folks become aware not if.
Get in there as soon as you feel able and show or tell on your terms.
When I was at your stage I used a combination of photos, poetry and display.
Most receptions were positive apart from my Daughter and she gets a special compromise from me.
As to general comments, most are not deliberately hostile but borne of a general thoughtlessness or misplaced attempts at humour.
Disparaging stares, I particularly dislike and try to grin them down but just sometimes there is some temptation to teach a lesson or two.
Good Luck and I sincerely trust that your misgivings will prove unfounded.
Steve.

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Re: The things people will say

Post by Big and Bashful »

Coder wrote:
Sat Jan 11, 2020 4:24 pm
I’m trying to find the courage to discuss skirt wearing with my folks, as I’d rather they find out from me rather than the grapevine. My dad had to have his gallbladder out, so spent a few days helping out. There were two incidences where the perfect situation was setup for me to interject something - but neither time felt right.

One time, a nurse says in a sickly sweet womanly manner to my mom, “oh, after eating at the cafeteria, you should check the gift shop out. It has such wonderful things”. After we ate, my mom said to me “Why do women think all women like shopping in gift shops?” - I cringed a bit as I though in another time and place, this would be a good time to interject some skirt-related humor.

Second incident was on discharge. My mom casually remarked to my dad as she helped him get dressed, “You wouldn’t have to worry about that if you were wearing a dress”. I’m like, oh man, why here?

Anyhow, it got me thinking. How often for you hear off the cuff remarks like these, and what would your response be? The lizard brain in me thinks remarks like those are simply said in jest (or in the case of the shop, fear of not conforming) and of my dad really wore a dress, or even suggested such a thing, the demeanor of said woman would change.
Missed opportunity there, you could simply have said something along the lines of "That's why I like wearing them, easy access." She had just stated an advantage, great way to broach the subject.
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Re: The things people will say

Post by Fred in Skirts »

I am of the opinion that the best way to broach the subject is to just get out there and say it.
"I wear Skirts!"
Then answer any questions as best as you possibly can. Do not allow the subject to be changed or veered off of the main, keep it on track. :D

The first time I went to my daughters in a skirt I did not even prepare her for it I just showed up and it was not a problem. It could have been a real big problem as she lives in Nebraska and I live in South Carolina. :lol:

I believe my rights to live and dress as I please are just that "MY RIGHTS". Not anyone else's. If they don't like it they can just kiss my Big Brown Pucker Spot.
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Re: The things people will say

Post by Happy-N-Skirts »

Everyone who knows me also knows that I like to hike, go for walks, and I am a wildlife photographer. I tell people that skirts are very practical for those activities. Unlimited stride, ventilation, freedom, and comfort. People's responses are usually short and very few questions. I have never had laughter, giggles, pointed fingers, stupid remarks, or dumb questions. Surprisingly no one has asked me what I wear underneath. If they ever did I would answer "briefs."

There are occasions that I wear pants. I belong to a few organizations and occasions where pants are more appropriate and I don't want to be the only person in the room wearing a kilt or skirt. I change back into a skirt as soon as I get home.

I have had surgery that pants are very uncomfortable during recovery. That is when I really appreciated skirts.

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Re: The things people will say

Post by Coder »

Big and Bashful wrote:
Sat Jan 11, 2020 6:14 pm
Missed opportunity there, you could simply have said something along the lines of "That's why I like wearing them, easy access." She had just stated an advantage, great way to broach the subject.
I'm pretty sure a "WHAT?" would have ensued. Heh, makes me chuckle a bit, but still, didn't seem appropriate at the time (I really should have though- maybe like, "I hear they are comfortable"). I'm going to breech (pun intended) the subject sometime in the next two weeks. The challenge I have to navigate is that in our church community there are "no pants on women" families, and in fact when she was working at a school some parents chided her because she wore pants at times, frustrated her, so I could use that avenue a bit. But I'm 100% certain those same families would be fine with a kilt... in fact I think one of the kids got married in one.

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Re: The things people will say

Post by moonshadow »

Tread lightly here.... I told my mom, and as was indicated earlier in this thread, it did seem to give her the upper hand. What's worse is it seems to have damaged our relationship to an extent.

This is one genie you can't put back in the bottle.

In hindsight, I think I would have been better to let it slide, and if they found out by other means, I would then "own it" and play it down as no big deal (because it really isn't)

If your church has lots of women who are forbidden to wear pants, that could be a problem.

My own father still doesn't know, and he seems so near the end now that I'm fine to keep this from him. It also helps that we are about 200 miles apart.

Nevertheless, his constant political rants and passive aggressive bigotry are driving a much bigger wedge between us than I feel like my skirt wearing ever would. It's to the point now where I almost don't care if he finds out, I'm tired of biting my tongue every time we speak. I have pleaded with him to spare me his political garbage and talk about something else, but almost every conversation, he can't resist... I've come mighty close a few times to showing up in a dress... if he can't respect my wishes, why should I respect his?

However I refrain...

I love my parents, but they don't love me... they love the person they think I am/want me to be... not the person I am...

Again, tread lightly or this to may be your situation.
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Re: The things people will say

Post by skirts4me »

Two recent discussions come to mind. In the first I was talking to someone involved in professional standards in the Anglican Church about comments which had been fed back to her, and the issue of my "attire" was raised. Whereas I had no problem talking about me wearing skirts she studiously avoided using the word. I raised eyebrows when I mentioned that all the men in the Bible wore skirts or dresses every day, that our albs and cassocks are effectively dresses, and that men's opposition to wearing skirts on the ground that women wear them is a clear indication of those men considering women to be somehow inferior. [Ask any man if he'd wearing Lord Mayoral robes and preside over local government meetings, and you're almost certain to get a 'yes' because of the status involved, but ask the same men if they'd wear a skirt publicly and you're more than likely going to get a determined 'no']

The second was a discussion with my parish priest and another of the leaders in the parish about having a certain person helping in the sanctuary, which would require him to be wearing an alb. The immediate response from the other leader was "no way: he won't wear a dress"!

I leave those two thoughts with you.
Shalom
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Re: The things people will say

Post by moonshadow »

Well, the scriptures are pretty clear on crossdressing and being an effeminate man. As for pastoral robes, I believe it is commanded in Exodous for men to wear trousers when approaching God (apparently they did exist during biblical times)

There is nothing wrong with ignoring passages we don't align with, after all, virtually everybody does this. But if your church doesn't condone effeminate men or those who wear women's garments than you basically have two choices, nix the skirts or nix the church.

I doubt a hostile church body will be swayed on this matter. There are several Christians on this site that somehow reconcile their skirt wearing with their faith, perhaps they can weigh in.
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Re: The things people will say

Post by Big and Bashful »

Tell me, are there any "normal" parts in the U.S.? I have never visited, but the impression I get from the News, from various forums and even the occasional on line game, is that America seems to be made entirely from areas of either ultra religious, ultra conservative, ultra erm throwback (Amish), ultra sort of hillbilly type (Deliverance?), gun collecting crackpots, ultra right wing etc. Please don't take this as an insulting post, I am genuinely curious because it seems to be only the more extreme personalities, creeds or whatever that we hear about here in Little Britain. As a fairly typical apathetic depressed Brit in our strangely deluded little country America fascinates, and frightens me a bit! I am glad to say that the few Americans I know living around here are all really nice folk, so what I see in the media certainly doesn't fit in with the folk I know.

Oh by the way, by "normal" I meant not dominated by extremists of one sort or another. I hope that makes sense.
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Re: The things people will say

Post by Jim »

moonshadow wrote:
Sun Jan 12, 2020 10:16 am
Well, the scriptures are pretty clear on crossdressing and being an effeminate man. As for pastoral robes, I believe it is commanded in Exodous for men to wear trousers when approaching God (apparently they did exist during biblical times)

There is nothing wrong with ignoring passages we don't align with, after all, virtually everybody does this. But if your church doesn't condone effeminate men or those who wear women's garments than you basically have two choices, nix the skirts or nix the church.

I doubt a hostile church body will be swayed on this matter. There are several Christians on this site that somehow reconcile their skirt wearing with their faith, perhaps they can weigh in.
That sounds like an invitation. I'll accept.

In Deuteronomy 22:5, we read, "A woman shall not wear a man's garment, nor shall a man put on a woman's cloak, for whoever does these things is an abomination to the LORD your God."

The chapter continues:
Moses wrote: 9 Do not plant your vineyard with two types of seed; otherwise, the entire harvest, both the crop you plant and the produce of the vineyard, will be defiled. 10 Do not plow with an ox and a donkey together. 11 Do not wear clothes made of both wool and linen. 12 Make tassels on the four corners of the outer garment you wear.
Most Christians believe the Old Testament law was binding on the Jewish people, not the Gentile converts. This was a big controversy in the early church with the conservatives arguing “It is necessary to circumcise them and to command them to keep the law of Moses!” (Acts 15.5) The book of Act records the resulting Council of Jerusalem, about 48 AD, where the church leaders decided,
the apostles and elders wrote: For it was the Holy Spirit’s decision — and ours — to put no greater burden on you than these necessary things: 29 that you abstain from food offered to idols, from blood, from eating anything that has been strangled, and from sexual immorality. You will do well if you keep yourselves from these things. --Acts 15.28-29
A little later Paul wrote:
Paul wrote: [Christ] made of no effect the law consisting of commands and expressed in regulations, so that He might create in Himself one new man from the two, resulting in peace. - Ephesians 2.15
I would conclude that those Christians who criticize skirts based on Deuteronomy 22:5 are not understanding the New Testament, and if they are not wearing tassels on the four corners of their outer garments are also being hypocritical.

The only New Testament verse I'm aware of that might be used against skirt-wearing is 1 Corinthians 6.9. The King James Bible reads
Or know ye not that the unrighteous shall not inherit the kingdom of God? Be not deceived: neither fornicators, nor idolaters, nor adulterers, nor effeminate, nor abusers of themselves with men, ...
The Greek work the KJV translates as effeminate is μαλακός, malakos, meaning "soft". Modern translations usually conclude this refers to a type of homosexual practice (a different controversy that I don't think we should deal with here).

Of course, in response to Deuteronomy, we could add the arguments that the experts, the fashion designers, have pronounced that there is now just clothing, not men's clothing and women's clothing. There is also the fact that the word "man" in Deuteronomy is not the usual word, but one that may be better interpreted as "warrior". This could be a command to not avoid military service by pretending to be a woman.

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Re: The things people will say

Post by Coder »

moonshadow wrote:
Sun Jan 12, 2020 10:16 am
Well, the scriptures are pretty clear on crossdressing and being an effeminate man. As for pastoral robes, I believe it is commanded in Exodous for men to wear trousers when approaching God (apparently they did exist during biblical times)

There is nothing wrong with ignoring passages we don't align with, after all, virtually everybody does this. But if your church doesn't condone effeminate men or those who wear women's garments than you basically have two choices, nix the skirts or nix the church.

I doubt a hostile church body will be swayed on this matter. There are several Christians on this site that somehow reconcile their skirt wearing with their faith, perhaps they can weigh in.
As for myself I have reconciled it - as is I tend to wear mixed fibers on any give day - and I have read about at least one catholic member on this board, so I know some parishes would be welcoming. And I'm not opposed to pants as many are here, so I would skirt the issue by not wearing a skirt to mass.

The problem, as I see it nowadays, is one of messaging (or "scandal"). The whole (and I'm not trying to start a new discussion) trans thing has really opened up my possibilities at work because everyone is now so woke. Across the university on MLK day what are they celebrating? Gender diversity, because that's what MLK was fighting for, and not racism (I know, it's the new civil rights crusade). At the same time, I don't want people to think I'm trans, as I'm not, even though the trans advocates would say otherwise, which then begs the question - what the heck are you? And I am a very meek person so yeah, I don't feel comfortable talking about it. It's a preference, I like them, that's all.

I ran across this blog post - which I found quite hilarious - by a lady in response to a awful screed directing women to give up pants (the guy who wrote the screed admits to wearing a kilt):

https://simchafisher.wordpress.com/2010 ... nifesto-2/

and her followup:

https://simchafisher.wordpress.com/2010 ... ants-pass/

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Re: The things people will say

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Big and Bashful wrote:
Sun Jan 12, 2020 1:26 pm
Tell me, are there any "normal" parts in the U.S.?
Actually, for the most part, the United States is peopled with perfectly average folk who tend to be open, warm, and even generous. There are pockets that "have issues" (as there are everywhere), but those tend to be the exception rather than the rule.

The problem with listening (or reading) the mass media is that the mass media is intent on selling copy (and advertising) so tend to amplify the sensational aspects of things "for effect".
As a fairly typical apathetic depressed Brit in our strangely deluded little country America fascinates, and frightens me a bit!
This, save for swapping "Brit" for "American" pretty well sums things up for the vast mass of humanity in this country. Everybody, save for the handful of billionaires, is more than a little bit scared for the future because the future here, by any meaningful standard, looks pretty bleak for those who toil for a living (which is to say most everybody).
I am glad to say that the few Americans I know living around here are all really nice folk, so what I see in the media certainly doesn't fit in with the folk I know.
There you go -- a personal observation. Those should carry more weight than anything you read in the papers or see on the telly.
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Re: The things people will say

Post by Coder »

Big and Bashful wrote:
Sun Jan 12, 2020 1:26 pm
Tell me, are there any "normal" parts in the U.S.? I have never visited, but the impression I get from the News, from various forums and even the occasional on line game, is that America seems to be made entirely from areas of either ultra religious, ultra conservative, ultra erm throwback (Amish), ultra sort of hillbilly type (Deliverance?), gun collecting crackpots, ultra right wing etc. Please don't take this as an insulting post, I am genuinely curious because it seems to be only the more extreme personalities, creeds or whatever that we hear about here in Little Britain. As a fairly typical apathetic depressed Brit in our strangely deluded little country America fascinates, and frightens me a bit! I am glad to say that the few Americans I know living around here are all really nice folk, so what I see in the media certainly doesn't fit in with the folk I know.

Oh by the way, by "normal" I meant not dominated by extremists of one sort or another. I hope that makes sense.
So... it's complicated. I'm in Michigan, so my experience will be different from other parts of the country. Generally speaking, large cities and college towns tend to have more liberal people (the town I work in is super liberal), whereas the rural areas tend to be dominated by shades of conservatism. That being said, you'll find both types of people in both areas, it's just the ratio that changes.

I have the odd situation of having grown up in a right wing household - but my working life has been in a liberal bastion (university) so my take on things is... a bit more nuanced. I don't tend to apply the word 'ultra' in a negative way to many/most groups except when extremism comes into play - and by that I mean when a group wants to infringe on my rights (as defined by the constitution, etc...) or bring harm to people. Some woman wants to collect guns? Is she hurting anyone? No? Ok! Have fun! The Amish? Glad they love their life (not for me!).

The thing about news media is... they have normalized liberalism and *anything* to the right is abnormal, so they report on it with disdain - causing fear, uncertainty, doubt (I only say this because you didn't include liberals in your list :D). And I would wager that there are more "nice" people than "extreme" people in the USA. But extreme people are easier to get people to fear, which drives up ratings. Plus, what is more interesting - a story about "a nice family who ate dinner at the table every night" or a "protest for and against some major issue"?

My take on it - the media hypes stereotypes for ratings over-inflating their numbers, but there are pockets of extremism here and there. America seems to have become more tribal in the last decade (at least online), though I'm not certain the cause, I love to blame the media for it, but maybe social media is the cause :D

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