Perhaps we need a TV room?

[Since1982]

There are thousands of transvestite forums on the internet, so far, this hasn't been one. I'm not telling anyone how to think or what to wear, I'm happy this hasn't been (so far) a tranny site. That said, do/say what you want.

[Skirt Chaser]

But you guys try to get at the root of the reaction, which makes much more sense and is more constructive, but isn't an intuitive approach to a male who is defending a weak point in himself.

But lots of men do that here too. I'm mostly here to argue and as likely to toss out the apple of discord into the forum as make peace.

Okay, I'll back down and gracefully accept the compliment

[iain]

I should think so too! I don't give out very many!

[Bob]

Emerald... I think that we certainly are not all on the same page as far as what we mean by the word "transvestite." That is understandable: these words have fluid meanings in the wider society. However, within the SkirtCafe context, we have over time come up with precise, unambiguous definitions --- ones that have worked remarkably well for us.

The key aspect of what we do that differentiates us from transvestites is a lack of trying to pass. We don't choose feminine names, we don't try to convince people we're a woman while wearing a skirt, we don't use wigs or breast forms or bras. Those are all standard tranny fare, which we just don't do. We have "gender honesty" --- which means that if we consider ourselves to be men, then we always present ourselves to the world as men no matter what we're wearing. At the very least, that means we use masculine pronouns and masculine names.

And I agree with others here --- the tranny endeavor goes against so much of what we hold dear. In particular, TV activity actively reinforces so many gender stereotypes that have been harmful for both men and women in our society, but especially for women. I have no interest in running a board that reinforces ideas of women as one-dimensional sexual playthings. That is demeaning.

You bring up the issue of a guy who looks more manly in public and maybe more feminine in private. That is not tranny, unless he actively pretends to be a woman --- i.e. take on a woman's name, role play his version of woman's roles, etc. You wear different things depending on the context and how you're feeling, and sometimes you might dress rather masculine, but that doesn't make you a tranny. Same thing for a man.

In the case you mentioned that guy would definitely be a part of this board. I would not consider him a transvestite, no matter what he wore while calling HIMself "Joe" or "Marvin."

And believe me, there are probably some guys like that on this board. We have no acid test for "looking" masculine or feminine --- which is a subjective evaluation in any case. We only seek to dress on the outside as we perceive ourselves from the inside, and to be honest about that with the world. This board is about our inner reality, not about role-playing.

[crfriend]

I think that we certainly are not all on the same page as far as what we mean by the word "transvestite." That is understandable: these words have fluid meanings in the wider society. However, within the SkirtCafe context, we have over time come up with precise, unambiguous definitions --- ones that have worked remarkably well for us.

Out of curiosity, I don't recall ever seeing those definitions explicitly written down anywhere -- and some of them are precise enough (for instance the way we use the term "transvestite" or "cross-dresser") that they may deviate from what society at large may accept and use. Is there a repository for those definitions (and the "gender honesty" policy) that can be easily perused, or should those data be gradually acquired by new participants over time by interaction with other board denizens?

[Bob]

The answer is half and half. There is a core level of shared understanding, but it has not been made explicit enough. For example, the "gender honesty" policy is implied, and most people "get it" without it ever being stated. But now and then I do get registrations of non-women under names like "Samantha", etc; and once in a very long while, I get registrations including words like "TV" and "XX".

But in general, this forum is in sore need of a good overhaul; and I think that will make more explicit the things we've learned over the last several years.

[Emerald Witch]

Emerald... I think that we certainly are not all on the same page as far as what we mean by the word "transvestite." That is understandable: these words have fluid meanings in the wider society.

(oooooo! I think I may have figured out quotes! Yaaay)

(ahem, back to serious.)

Thank you, Bob. I really appreciate that you take the time to recognize and validate my struggle. All I've wanted all along was to be friendly, and it is so frustrating when misunderstandings creep in due to words which seem so easily understandable, but are not.

The key aspect of what we do that differentiates us from transvestites is a lack of trying to pass (as females).

As I have said before, it is the very fact that you are all so masculine which attracts me in the first place. If I were attracted to women, I would be visiting a site for women.

So then I guess the real thrust of my original meaning was not to have an area for any sort of roleplaying but just to have an area where the more generally "feminine" aspects of dress would be more openly discussed, and those who find it distasteful would know to not bother wandering by. Obviously the rest of the board would still contain the same mix as always.

I just find the masculine/feminine mixture so fascinating, I cannot help but encourage it whenever I can. I find the men who have the bravery to choose to come forward with those styles to be among the most courageous and sexy men there are.

I can understand good reasons why this board would need to stay pretty straightlaced, but I believe -- not for pruriant reasons, but because it is part of the human condition -- that we really do need to find a way to discuss the "sexy" factor of things somehow.

There are just so many times I would like to make a comment, but I'm afraid of being thought crass... I would just HATE to offend by giving a wink that a man thinks is out of line... yet sometimes I think a chance for a compliment missed is almost as bad as an insult.

And this is another reason (maybe I'm overstepping my bounds here) why I have hesitated to announce to everyone I know "hey, girls! Come over here and meet all the sexy dudes I've met at SkirtCafe!" Part of me is afraid they'll swarm over, bubbling with hormones and perhaps not quite as much restraint as me, and start drooling all over everyone.

Could be quite a mess. Might need a mop.

Things could get out of hand, is what I'm saying.

Maybe that is not my place to predict. Maybe they are fully as capable as me of showing decorum, etc. It's just that the other place I know them from (EddieIzzard.com) is rather more freespirited than here. Not sluttish, just way more open about girly things like makeup and how sexy it looks on men.

Ah, then again, maybe I'm brewing a tempest in a teapot. Nobody here is Eddie Izzard, and they are rather DEVOTED fans.

That's the other thing I feared... as soon as anyone said anything the least bit negative about "trannys" -- they'd be off like a shot. Eddie is a self-proclaimed transvestite, and proud of it. An "Executive Transvestite", rather than a "wierdo" transvestite, as he distinguishes it.

I must admit, I am rather a devoted fan myself, though not a rabid one. I highly recommend his DVD's to everyone, whatever their clothing-choice leanings. He is just completely brilliant.

Well, my time is up for the day. I'm so sorry I don't have more. I haven't even had a chance to glance at any area of the board but this one thread. I am a slow typist. But I care so much.

'Till next time.

[Sarongman]

Emerald Witch, I know of a motoring writer here in Australia who, a few years ago, "came out" as a transvestite and, in consequence can get an idea where you are coming from. He and his wife often go out as a couple of girls (He's well in his 60s so old ladies may be more appropriate) and what about our Aussie icon "Dame Edna Everage?" While Barry H. may be as gay as a kite, the said motoring writer certaimly isn't.

My personal rationale for skirt wearing is the sheer rightness of doing so, against the narrow mores of society. I have no desire to pass as a woman, and would fail dismally anyway, due to tha beard.

[ziggy_encaoua]

the tranny endeavor goes against so much of what we hold dear. In particular, TV activity actively reinforces so many gender stereotypes that have been harmful for both men and women in our society.

Exactly what I've been saying

[binx]

No TV activity here, please. We are Skirts and Kilts for men, not skirts and kilts for men wanting to look like women.

binx

[binx]

No TV activity here, please. We are Skirts and Kilts for men, not skirts and kilts for men wanting to look like women. Hmmm, no way to delete posts?

binx

[binx]

No TV activity here, please. We are Skirts and Kilts for men, not skirts and kilts for men wanting to look like women. Sorry for multiple posts. First one gave me an error message, so I tried again.

binx

[AMM]

... I guess the real thrust of my original meaning was not to have an area for any sort of roleplaying but just to have an area where the more generally "feminine" aspects of dress would be more openly discussed, and those who find it distasteful would know to not bother wandering by. Obviously the rest of the board would still contain the same mix as always.

I would like to see this, too.

I find myself going to crossdressers.com, even though I have no interest in their version of "crossdressing," because it seems like they sometimes will talk about feelings and "feminine" desires. They tend to stick to the usual division of all of human experience into "masculine" and "feminine", but at least they mention feelings and desires on both sides of the Great Divide.

I think that most of us guys here still have some terror of finding out that we are being "unmasculine," or might be seen as such. (This terror could be the subject of a whole forum.) Some of us handle this fear by acting macho in some way or other, or insisting on how masculine we are, despite this "feminine" thing we're doing. (Yes, I'm wearing a skirt, but look how masculine it is.)

I'd love to have a place where I could freely talk about wanting to wear clothes that are far more feminine that what I have the courage to wear out in public, even among the most tolerant people I know. I'd go into more detail, but worry that some of the people here would be wierded out (Cf. the "No TV activity here, please." posts.)

I'd also like a place where I could try to figure out how a guy can wear girly stuff and rewire (and replaster) houses and attack difficult [computer] programming tasks and be a good (well, I'd be satisfied with "just adequate") father to two teen-age boys -- and still be one person.

And someday I'll have to explain to my sons what I'm doing and why, maybe sooner than I've planned. It would be nice to have a good and honest explanation when that day comes.

I actually think that, deep inside, many of us here have more in common with Orthodox Crossdressers than we'd like to think, even if we express/handle it in very different ways. One of the things I like about SkirtCafe, and the reason I'd like to see the discussion happen here, is that we here at SkirtCafe do not handle these issues by splitting ourselves into separate "masculine" and "feminine" personas.

I just find the masculine/feminine mixture so fascinating, I cannot help but encourage it whenever I can. I find the men who have the bravery to choose to come forward with those styles to be among the most courageous and sexy men there are.

Are you saying I'm -- sexy? (Gee, I wonder if I can get her to say it again. )

There's another issue: how our feelings about wearing skirts, etc., affect how we feel in "intimate" contexts. I don't mean we need explicit discussion of sex, but, for instance: maybe I'm the only one, but I still have a little trouble believing that a woman would be attracted to a skirt-wearing man. (The fact that I'm not in a relationship at this point -- still recovering from a divorce -- doesn't help.)

[EW is afraid to say]... "hey, girls! Come over here and meet all the sexy dudes I've met at SkirtCafe!" Part of me is afraid they'll swarm over, bubbling with hormones and perhaps not quite as much restraint as me, and start drooling all over everyone.

No problem! I'm a dad, I have lots of experience with babes drooling on my shoulder. (My trick: keep a cloth diaper on your shoulder at all times.)

-- AMM

[ChristopherJ]

I agree wholeheartedly about keeping the focus of this forum aimed where it is at present - i.e. a forum for men who wear skirts - as men. To go beyond that remit would dilute the 'communal' feel of the forum. Also - as has already been pointed out, it would likely be flooded with posts from what I call "internet TVs" - i.e. people who are acting out a fantasy of being a TV via internet forums.

I don't have any bad feeling at all toward men who dress in order to look like a woman. I say good luck to them. In fact, one thing that has distressed me on this forum has been when I have seen comments by people who are implying that transvestites (and maybe crossdressers too) are perverts or weirdos etc.
I do not agree with that at all. I see the TV and CD communities as being marginalised by society in a similar way to many other small groups of people - including MIS - who have chosen to live or dress in a fashion that is outside of the conventional norms. So, in that respect, I feel a kinship with TVs and CDs and so do not like to see abuse hurled at them. Nevertheless, we have our own 'places' on the internet where we meet etc. - and I think it is preferable that they are separate.

[Bob]

This is all so interesting.

I like the idea of being able to explore my own body and identity. However, I am not comfortable with the idea of having my body objectified for the pleasure of random women I don't know. Of course, this is the kind of stuff women have to deal with every day and it is certainly a problem.

But I don't think that expanding objectification to men's bodies is the right way to level the "gender playing field," so to speak. I'd rather see our society move in the direction of giving more respect to women's bodies.