Perhaps we need a TV room?

Emerald Witch · Post by **Emerald Witch** » Tue Aug 21, 2007 11:48 pm

I know a lot of folks are still really squeamish about the "T" word around here. Geez, a lot of energy is spent in dancing around issues which to me seem so straightforward... All I want to do is talk honestly and openly with folks, but everyone seems to feel that if everything isn't defined and pigeonholed and labled carefully to ensure that nobody will mistake it for carrying a hint of (gasp!) transvestitism (eurgh!) then it just isn't SAFE.

Maybe it has something to do with being American. Maybe we are just used to being more up-front and open about things.

Maybe it is just that some people are ready to face their demons (both inner and outer) and some people are not.

Honestly, I am not here to shove demons into the faces of folks who don't want to deal with them. But I DO want the chance to talk openly with folk who don't consider these issues to be so gosh-darned nasty.

So I suggest that perhaps it would be easier if there were a separate area for those of us who are comfortable talking about such things. Folks who find it distasteful could just stay the heck out.

Dunno if it makes sense. Just a suggestion. Any thoughts?

ziggy_encaoua · Post by **ziggy_encaoua** » Wed Aug 22, 2007 12:30 am

Perhaps you should join a tranny forum if you want to discuss tranny things

Stevie D · Post by **Stevie D** » Wed Aug 22, 2007 12:40 am

Hello Emerald Witch,

Firstly let me say [publicly

] that I'm pleased you are sticking around the Cafe. Your views are most welcome, as far as I'm concerned.

I think your suggestion of a TV room (perhaps a T* room to cater for various options) is a good idea. The general consensus among the membership is that the Cafe is a place where we can discuss men wearing unbifurcated garments as men, i.e. not as TVs trying to pass as women. However, I am also aware that some members, at some stage in their experimentation with skirted garments, will have come along the TV or other transgendered route. Perhaps that was their way into this forum and mens' fashion freedom. They may also still be going along that route.

In the header to the Cafe it says "We recognize a diversity of styles our members feel comfortable wearing, and do not exclude any potential choices. Continuing dialog on gender and masculinity is encouraged in the context of fashion freedom for men."

So, while I do not think the Cafe should become a 'tranny board' (there are plenty of those on the internet), I nevertheless feel that it ought to be possible to discuss T* issues which affect us, in a sane and dignified manner, without the feeling that we should not be doing so, because 'it's not what this board is about'.

So, to anyone reading this who doesn't want to discuss the T* thing, then that's fine, just don't take part in the discussions. But let those that do, do so. I think the Cafe is a bit like BBC Radio 4, described on its website as "intelligent speech" and therefore we can do rather better than gushing accolades of false femininity that seems to be typical of many tranny boards. That's not what I have in mind and nor, I suspect, does Emerald Witch (please excuse me if I'm wrong).

For myself, I am interested in knowing whether there are any people here (as well as myself) who came to MIS via the T* route.
What were/are your motivations?
Did mens' fashion freedom/MIS 'solve' any gender-related problems for you?
Looking at it another way, is mens' fashion freedom/MIS merely a more socially acceptable comfort zone, enabling you to sidestep (temporarily or otherwise) the perhaps harder issues to cope with which go with being transgendered in some degree?

I think these are valid questions that may be important for some of us here and therefore worth discussing.

Skirt Chaser · Post by **Skirt Chaser** » Wed Aug 22, 2007 4:59 am

I thought this would be a television thread.

While a transvestite discussion section would give too much attention to a subject tangential to the site's point a thread like this one would be worthwhile. I know the subject interests me, especially a discussion on the emphasis on a one-dimensional characterization of womanhood (or at least that is my perception of it).

Quiet Mouse

trainman · Post by **trainman** » Wed Aug 22, 2007 9:36 am

I must admit a more open minded room would be a welcome addition.

I have been feeling the lack of a more relaxed forum since IMFF has been offline.

knappen · Post by **knappen** » Wed Aug 22, 2007 11:31 am

a more relaxed group always seems attractive to me I came to male skirting after a long period of expiermenting with tattoos piercings etc all of them seem to envoke bias from someone. today I have little simpathy for narrowminded people if I need to live in a box to be acceptable to someone they are going to be dissapointed. I too would like to hear from those exploring thier T inclinations.K.

ziggy_encaoua · Post by **ziggy_encaoua** » Wed Aug 22, 2007 11:53 am

We shouldn't be encouraging transvestitism we should be encouraging fashion equality & transvestitism isn't fashion equality. Transvestites don't want the erosion of the gender clothing apartheid they want it reinforced!

ziggy_encaoua · Post by **ziggy_encaoua** » Wed Aug 22, 2007 11:59 am

If Emerald Witch wants to discuss such displeasures as tips on passing or tranny fiction then I suggest they join forums such as http://www.trannyweb.com/ or http://rosesforum.tv/forums/index.php

Stevie D · Post by **Stevie D** » Wed Aug 22, 2007 12:35 pm

Ziggy, we all know your standpoint - you've made it abundantly clear many times. However, there are several of us who (strange though it might sound to you) think differently.

No-one is suggesting that we are, or should be, 'encouraging transvestitism'. We just want to discuss some aspects of what it means to be trans*.

No-one is forcing you to join in the discussions. If you don't want to, that's fine. I'm sure the threads will be readily identifiable, so you will know to keep away from them.

trainman · Post by **trainman** » Wed Aug 22, 2007 1:02 pm

Have to agree with Steve.

I'd say not a TV room so much, as a room that opens up the mind to further exploration of ones self. I have never had a desire to pass, but at the same time I have never been 100% comfortable with myself, or my choices.

Now I have looked at the Atrium, and find it's far too extreme for my taste. IMFF was good, it was slightly more liberal, but at the same time no where near as radical as other places. That's the sort of place I miss the most.

Excuse me if i'm kind of hard to understand... It's late here, and I'm getting ready for work.

iain · Post by **iain** » Wed Aug 22, 2007 2:48 pm

I'm fine with TV-issue threads and I'm glad Emerald and Quiet take an open minded view.

The only possible point I can see against catering specifically to the TV element is that in two previous forums, one on MIS and one unrelated to it, they opened up to TVs and within literally three months both places were in need of heavy censorship. Some of the stuff being posted was alarming and truly near the knuckle.

Both forums were run by women, and in both cases there was clearly a hell of a lot of concern on the part of those managers -- and both closed down very shortly afterwards, without notice, mainly because they were unable to maintain any kind of control. I miss those forums!

I resented that they had been made into places where I couldn't feel comfortable -- some of the posters were obviously crackpots, and really obsessed with sexual issues. But once the forums slipped into really dodgy areas, that was it, there was no bringing back the people who had fled and the forums were just left as burnt out shells.

Can we perhaps avoid that by not having one specific area which will be loaded with sexual issues, thus obliging every poster to conform to the same standards as are in place now?

ziggy_encaoua · Post by **ziggy_encaoua** » Wed Aug 22, 2007 3:10 pm

Steve D wrote: No-one is suggesting that we are, or should be, 'encouraging transvestitism'. We just want to discuss some aspects of what it means to be trans*.

What discussing what its like to spank the monkey whilst wearing the wife's underwear fine people want to go & discuss that there's plenty of tranny forums across the net where people can.

What there isn't is enough places for the discussion of Men's Fashion Freedom with out the tainting of tranny ********.

iain · Post by **iain** » Wed Aug 22, 2007 4:50 pm

QM also has a good point about the one-dimensional aspect of TV. If a guy really wanted to live like a woman, it would be very disappointing not because of physical limitations, but because the woman's life is not one long glorious ecstasy from one revealing outfit to the next, revelling in the sensations of their own bodies.

Most women are quite self conscious about at least one aspect of their body and no woman in her right mind flaunts her sexuality continually. A large part of the time she could be struggling with food issues, or self confidence, hormonal variations, conflicts with other women, intansigent men, unwanted attention, etc.

How many TV's celebrate their feminine side by wearing baggy pajamas, going to bed early, putting on a mud pack and watching a chic flick? That's not something they want to consider.

If the one-dimensional view of women, that TVs seem to have, comes from repressed sexual urges maybe that's why TV forums can easily get out of control so quickly. But a discussion of TV-ism itself rather than a how-to-and-then-show-us forum, would be a great thing, especially if EW and QM are interested in it. And we could encourage people to use punctuation as well, as it's free and saves a lot of effort to the readers.

After all a forum belongs to its members and they are pretty special members!

ziggy_encaoua · Post by **ziggy_encaoua** » Wed Aug 22, 2007 8:17 pm

iain wrote:If a guy really wanted to live like a woman, it would be very disappointing not because of physical limitations, but because the woman's life is not one long glorious ecstasy from one revealing outfit to the next, revelling in the sensations of their own bodies.

Teah many transvestites now just to make out they're transsexuals & have surgery etc then when they find out it ain't as glorious to a woman they then blame everyonew else for having the chop.

ChristopherJ · Post by **ChristopherJ** » Thu Aug 23, 2007 12:17 am

I don't know why you hate transvestites Ziggy - but your repeated posts on the topic are getting tedious. You have made your point now.

As for me - I'm happy to chat about TV in the sense of how it impacts on men who wear skirts. But that's all. I don't see the need for a separate section here. What is the point of that? I don't see the problem with things as they are. EmeraldWitch may feel that a separate area is needed simply because some people on this forum seem to get upset at the very mention of transvestism. But IMO tolerance is what is require - not a separate section for TV talk. By tolerance, I mean showing tolerance for other people if they choose to discuss topics that you may not feel comfortable with.