Men in skirts, gays and women

[Bob]

It should be possible to email anyone.

That said, I'm coming around to believe that I should take the plunge and set up PM's. It is simpler for most people involved, and would enable private conversations.

I'm putting that on my list for the next SkirtCafe overhaul, which will come real soon now...

[Bob]

Regarding the gay community and skirts: that is a really common misperception, that somehow the gay community is into skirts. It is not. Skirts are used pretty much only for the "drag queen," which is a theatrical act. In the mainstream, gay men do not generally wear skirts or try to "look femme" on a day-to-day basis. On the contrary, the gay image can be almost hyper-masculine, because these are people who like men and want to be liked by men who like men.

But somehow, the belief that men who wear skirts are gay is very persistent, especially among conservative religious communities.

And gay men are certainly not into the transvestite thing (men pretending to be women). If one were to "pass" as a woman (a major goal of the TV community), that would only attract other men who like women. The transvestite community is dominated by straight men.

SkirtCafe is mostly straight men as well. But skirts are a fashion, not a lifestyle. If you want to adopt skirts as a men's fashion, your sexuality is just not important. Same as if this were a board about socks or T-shirts or any other piece of clothing.

[Departed Member]

Regarding the gay community and skirts: that is a really common misperception, that somehow the gay community is into skirts. It is not. Skirts are used pretty much only for the "drag queen," which is a theatrical act. In the mainstream, gay men do not generally wear skirts or try to "look femme" on a day-to-day basis. On the contrary, the gay image can be almost hyper-masculine, because these are people who like men and want to be liked by men who like men.

Apart from the use of the "G" word (which I will never use in that context!), I agree whole-heartedly with your observations, Bob!

I suspect the misconceptions (& subsequent fears?), periodically 're-inforced' by media 'blindness', relate to some highly publicised incidents many, many years ago (pre-'legal') when certain homosexual transvestites used their 'female appearance' to lure young and/or vulnerable men into sexual encounters. It was more to do with 'fooling the authorites', than the wearing of feminine garments, though. Unfortunately, this unsavoury image has 'stuck', and remains a potential threat to those of us who merely seek to wear comfortable clothing on our lower bodies.

[knickerless]

To activate your e.mails - click on profile on your home page and then page down and ensure that the button 'always show my e.mail adress' says YES.

Nick

[Emerald Witch]

That is an astute observation, sir. I congratulate your keen eye.

I now find myself open to a number of questions:

Why is there no e-mail button on most of our messages?
How can I get mine enabled?
Why is private messaging disallowed?
How can I allow it for myself?
How can I get it blocked for one particular person if they become bothersome to me?

Surely, while public conversation should maintain public standards of politeness, there is no reason why adults should not have the occasional private word, is there? The entire world need not look over our shoulder ALL the time...

[Emerald Witch]

I'm coming around to believe that I should take the plunge and set up PM's. It is simpler for most people involved, and would enable private conversations.

I'm putting that on my list for the next SkirtCafe overhaul, which will come re
al soon now...

Thank you, Bob! That sounds pretty cool.

[knickerless]

if you go into your own profile on the home page and page down you will see a button marked always shown my e.mail address - click on yes and we will be able to e.mail you direct if we want to. Similarly you can e.mail anyone else who has their e.mail on disply. You can try mine if you like.
BOB is also about to activate the PM feature where you can PM any member.
There is a way of blocking a member if they get on your nerves.

By the way did I say - welcome to this group.

Nick from
England

[Emerald Witch]

if you go into your own profile on the home page and page down you will see a button marked always shown my e.mail address - click on yes and we will be able to e.mail you direct if we want to. Similarly you can e.mail anyone else who has their e.mail on disply. You can try mine if you like.
BOB is also about to activate the PM feature where you can PM any member.
There is a way of blocking a member if they get on your nerves.

By the way did I say - welcome to this group.

Nick from
England

Thank you, Nick! Everyone here has been so welcoming, it makes me feel very at home.

I really wouldn't be comfortable putting out my private e-mail address for public access, though, so I'll wait for the PM feature to be fixed. (sigh)

Doncha just HATE having to practice your patience? There's no way to speed it up.

[WSmac]

Guess I'll wade in here ...

What I get from all this conversation is that the folks here definitely think deeper and longer about issues than the general public I run into.

Looking over a few of the posts, it is quite obvious to me that some individuals have a strong sense of 'their' world around them which they extrapolate to the greater world beyond.

I find this interesting and quite frankly, it doesn't bother me as much as those people who think less deeply about issues yet paint the world with a broad brush also.

Same brush, different strokes?

Personally, I have no idea how any of us can state emphatically 'why' women as a whole choose to wear pants. There are so many variables such as age, social upbringing, gender, sexuality, feelings of superiority or inferiority, on-and-on....

I certainly think some of the views expressed here about women wearing pants can be valid to some women, but I think it is useless to try to explain the greater population of women and their desire to wear pants.
(this is not one of those typical guy slights on women, the same idea applies to any community, gender in our world. Didn't want any women to think I was picking on them )

On the issue of 'Gay', or 'Gayness', or even Gheyness*, this has certainly been a friendly discussion on what could be a very hot topic which could easily lead to heated arguments.
Kudos to the gang here for being a bit more cerebral.

*just to help clarify the use of the term gay or ghey by the 'younger' generation... http://www.urbandictionary.com/define.php?term=ghey

My own viewpoint on men, gay/homosexuality, skirts, women & pants, is influenced by the fact that I am... for a lack of a better 'term'... Transgendered(TG).

I live with the knowledge that when some people find out I am TG and like to wear skirts, they assume the skirt-wearing and being TG are one in the same.

While there may be some small truth in that, I know that my wearing skirts is mainly related to how comfortable they are; after all, I do still retain my male anatomy 'down below' like all of you 'straight' guys... I assume so anyway

I also know, from experience, that there are those people who would describe me as gay/homosexual because I wear skirts, and also shave my legs.

My quandry is this...

Am I an affront to the Gay community because there are those in our societies who would label me as gay and therefore transfer their feelings about me towards actual gay persons?

Am I an affront to the Straight Male community because I currently appear as male, but wear skirts?

Am I an affront to the Skirted Male community because I associate with this group yet I also identify myself as Transgendered?

Here's another question...

For definition purposes, I will use the term transwoman to mean a biological born male who identifies with the female gender to the point that this person will someday take the necessary actions to initiate bodily changes that will allow them to present as female as possible or as needed for him/her to finally live the rest of their life in comfort.

I will use myself as an example even though some of this may or may not apply to me.

Is it okay for someone like me who currently passes only as male to represent the MIS community?
If not, then no further questions need be asked.

If so, then at what point does an individual like me quit representing this community...
I've already reached that point by admission (guess this goes along with the question above)?
At the point I start outwardly showing a more feminine appearance or manner?
After Gender Reassignment Surgery (Sex Change to those who might not be aware of the whole TG issue)?

I am not trying to find out if you all accept me or not... I will always support Men In Skirts because I believe it is a valid and healthy concept... and I just plain like being here!

I'm just curious what differing opinions there might be on this topic.

Be aware though, that I understand this is 'just' the internet and I won't be jumping all over anyone just because their comments might be distasteful to me or opposite my own. You are free to feel and think how you like.

Just thought I'd take that little bit of pressure off

I do want to say, that I live with my own concerns about these questions, every day.

I certainly want to feel free to be myself and live my life publicly and privately how I wish with respect to my fellow humans.
But, I do at times feel I may cast a 'dark cloud' over the whole MIS community by also admitting to being Transgendered.
Because of me, will the non-MIS world be thinking, "Hmmm, SEE! Those guys who wear skirts are really just fags who want to act like women, but want us to accept them as straight!"

This sorta goes with Merlin's comments about public perceptions and how what we do influences those perceptions... good or bad.

[Big and Bashful]

WSmac,
I think that was a very interesting message and your circumstances give you a unique viewpoint. I think you have a valuable contribution to make to MIS, as you progress down your road you should stay part of MIS for mutual support and the enlightenment of the rest of us.

[Emerald Witch]

Being transgendered like WSmac has got to be about the toughest thing there is. I can't imagine wanting to add to that discomfort with any sort of meanness or teasing. I can't imagine doing anything other than welcoming you in whatever capacity you want to be recognized, be it male or female, and treating you with respect, and letting it go at that.

I'll tell you a story someday about how I once screwed it up when I should have been more respectful to a transgendered person... and then how one day it finally came around all right. Mostly I think people are rude because they just don't know how the hell to behave. Nobody has taught them.

So we face our fears, get the word out, and do the best we can, eh?

[WSmac]

Mostly I think people are rude because they just don't know how the hell to behave. Nobody has taught them.

Hey, I like that!

Speaking from my experience with American society, I think your quote fits the bill quite well.

Once I learned there were other people like me, not only in this country but all over the world, I opened up a part of my psyche that has allowed me to live more comfortably in this world than I have ever done before.

In America, gender is predominantly defined by two variables... female & male.
We have no similar expression for anyone who feels caught in-between or believes they belong to the opposite end than what people around them are telling them they are.

The labels given to people who fall outside the 'gender norm' vary - fag/queer, transvestite, drag queen, transgender, trans man/woman, t-girl, chicks with ****'s (edited by myself - refers to a certain area of porn), you get the idea.

The medical community labels us as 'dysphoric', puts us in the holy bible of psychology, the DSM, and declares us to have some sort mental issue.

How on earth can I expect the average 'gender normative' person to know how to react to me?
They have no simple expression that is respectful, yet accurate and analogous to the two common terms - male/female.

Until the day comes along when we expand our vocabulary to include new everyday terms describing every differing example of humanity, I will still be largely viewed as an anomoly.

The same goes for men who wear skirts in this country and wish to be treated as normally as any other person walking down the street on any given day in America... or England... or other like places.

WOW! Sorry about the soapbox stance... and I'm not even running for office!

I wonder if I'm taking this whole thread off on a tangent.
If so, feel free to ask me to start anew, or drop the issue entirely.

back to EW's post above...

Feel free to make 'mistakes' when talking about me or to me concerning gender. As I say above, I certainly understand how difficult it could be to 'wrap one's head' around this whole issue, especially with it being so new relative to history.

I also don't mind kidding about it either.

A good friend who learned a couple of years ago about my gender once asked me a question concerning my 'interest' in women.

He was genuinely curious whether I was still attracted to females and the conversation went like this...

CC: Suppose there was a lady on her front porch one morning wearing a red nighty. Would you still be interested in that sort of thing?

ME: OH SURE I would! I just hope the nighty was my size!

I believe in the power of laughter. I practice it every day at work with patients and their families when I can discern it's appropriateness.

Thanks for the support you all (Big and Bashful, and Emerald Witch).

[Brandy]

This is a very interesting thread. I have little to add to the comments already posted. BUT in light of the topic I heard a comment on the radio last week that floored me.

I do not remember the station or program. I do remember a woman commentator and interviewee was also a woman. Some how the conversation came around to women’s fashion and how some women will wear men’s clothes. I this case the discussion was about some female celebrity wearing a men’s tie. The killer comment made by the host was " I guess when she put on the tie, the ties DNA CHANGED!" I kid you not this was a radio broadcast. Just wish I could remember more details.

-- Brandy

[Sasquatch]

Am I an affront to the Skirted Male community because I associate with this group yet I also identify myself as Transgendered?

WSmac, you're no affront to me. There may be some members who would worry about the image of SkirtCafe when someone with a unique sense of (sexual) self is a regular correspondent, but I would argue that we are all unique individuals in that respect, differing only by degrees. I'd like to say thanks for sharing your sense of self.

Some might characterize me as a "waist-down transvestite" because I shave my legs and use subtle polish on my toenails - and, of course, wear skirts, even though my skirts are not especially feminine or flamboyant in any regard. Why do I do this? "Dunno! Because I like to," is the best answer I can offer. I doubt if Freud himself could figure me out. That's why I really respect and appreciate your articulation of your own nature.

I believe this site is a "big tent" in that regard. I think there is room enough for any respectful and thoughtful corrrespondent. I enjoyed very much reading your introspective comments.

Thanks,
Sasq

[ChristopherJ]

Is it okay for someone like me who currently passes only as male to represent the MIS community?

No one person represents the MIS 'community'. It's a community, you see. That means that it comprises of lots of people with a common interest or purpose. A fellowship.

But the members of this community - like the members of any community - are all very different. Some are tall, some are short; some are tubby, some slim; some have dark hair, some fair; some prefer a very masculine style in their appearance, some do not; some are heterosexual, some are not. I could go on forever here, but you get the idea.

I absolutely love the diversity of people that seems to comprise MIS. It is actually a relief to me, because if people who wore skirts were all cut from the same cloth (terrible mettyfore, I know!), then it would be a little bit boring. So - to try to answer your question - in my opinion, no one person can represent the MIS community - I certainly would not attempt to. But I can represent my own viewpoint as a member of the MIS community. That is perfectly valid. And you can do the same - and your own viewpoint is particularly interesting because of your TG background.