Men in skirts, gays and women

[alexthebird]

In the Hiking in Skirt thread, Owen said "If they had cast aspersions I would probably have remarked on the gayness of their skintight cycling shorts!"

I don't want to pick on Owen, but this is the most recent example of something I see from time to time that I find a little disturbing about this forum. Why is it necessary to say derogatory things about gays and women? Of course Owen didn't make any negative references about women but it wouldn't be hard to find several examples.

It almost seems to me that there is a need to show distance from everything that is not manly (whatever that may be) and a need to reinforce the idea that we are masculine males and the fact that we are wearing masculine skirts doesn't reduce our testosterone one bit!

Well, that seems a bit silly to me. For one thing, there is nothing more hyper-masculine than the art and images of the gay community so to image that gays are less than masculine shows a huge lack of familiarity with anyone gay.

For another, though, the fact is that we (the men who wear skirts community) have shown a significant amount of courage to break through a social taboo. Then, having done so, why is it necessary to reinforce the pervasive social image of what it means to be masculine?

Frankly, I'd rather do things, say things and wear things because of who I am and how I want to present myself in the world than because some unwritten laws say that I have to.

Alexthebird

[Departed Member]

In the Hiking in Skirt thread, Owen said "If they had cast aspersions I would probably have remarked on the gayness of their skintight cycling shorts!"

I don't want to pick on Owen, but this is the most recent example of something I see from time to time that I find a little disturbing about this forum. Why is it necessary to say derogatory things about gays and women? Of course Owen didn't make any negative references about women but it wouldn't be hard to find several examples.
Alexthebird

Whoa there! Let's not venture any further down the PC road! The current (mis)usage of the "G" word, particularly amongst the younger element, refers to the "lack of style" or "naff-ness" of apparel. It seems to be 'cross-gender' in its application, too.

Probably the only way to 'fast-track' the general 'acceptance' of men's skirts is for them to be perceived as just that - something readily identifable as 'masculine' - hence the virtual 'invisibility' of most varieties of denim skirt. Yeah, I'm sure (certain, in fact!) that if some of the so-called 'freestylers' were to be a little more patient with their desire to be outrageously conspicuous, then everyone would benefit, long-term.

As for the strange and illogical premise that there is some 'connection' between men's skirts and homosexuality, this is purely over-hyped media-speak. If you (or anyone!) can think of a positive way to break that perception, then fine!

[ChristopherJ]

It almost seems to me that there is a need to show distance from everything that is not manly (whatever that may be) and a need to reinforce the idea that we are masculine males and the fact that we are wearing masculine skirts doesn't reduce our testosterone one bit!

I agree with all aspects of your post Alexthebird. I have never understood the need to constantly emphasise the masculinity of a man who is wearing a skirt. The skirt is just a piece of cloth - it is non-sexual. Only the conditioning of our culture makes a skirt appear to be a feminine clothing item. I wear skirts that were made for women simply because they are cheap, fit me and look OK. I don't feel the need to emphasise my masculinity - whether I am in a skirt or not.

BTW - you mention that you have often seen posts on this forum referring to gays or women in a negative fashion. I'd like to point out that I have often seen posts referring to crossdressers and transvestites in a similar way - i.e. very negative. I don't understand this. It's possibly a part of the attempt at masculinity reinforcement that you mention.
I'm not a crossdresser or a transvestite, but I completely respect the choices such people have made in respect of their lives and - in many cases - admire them for the difficulties they have had to deal with in order to live in the way they choose. I would not put them down - simply on the basis of the way they choose to dress and act. Crossdressers and transvestites are people too - they deserve some respect and I would hope that posters on this forum would at least accord them that. Instead, I have often seen the terms crossdresser or transvestite used as an insult. This is wrong in my opinion. I say - live and let live.

Probably the only way to 'fast-track' the general 'acceptance' of men's skirts is for them to be perceived as just that - something readily identifable as 'masculine' - hence the virtual 'invisibility' of most varieties of denim skirt. Yeah, I'm sure (certain, in fact!) that if some of the so-called 'freestylers' were to be a little more patient with their desire to be outrageously conspicuous, then everyone would benefit, long-term.

I don't see why you feel that skirts need to be perceived as 'masculine' or 'feminine', Merlin. Trousers are not gender specific. Why should skirts be?

You speak of 'so-called freestylers' in a condescending manner and assert that they desire to be 'outrageously conspicuous'.

I suppose I could be called a freestyler. I do not desire to be outrageously conspicuous. I simply want to wear whatever clothing I choose and contribute toward the relaxation of the current social restrictions that are placed on male costume.

[Since1982]

I don't think there was any thought given to the "gay" lifestyle with that comment. Merlin is very correct that the young today use "gayness" as a non-homosexual slight having to do with poor clothing choices. I think we are (at least I hope we are) past all the "A man in a skirt is a Queen or gay or anything other than a comfortable person in a comfortable piece of apparel." There are many men that because of a slight body form may not "LOOK" masculine to some eyes, however that doesn't make them anything but masculine. Masculine to me is a mental choice, not a muscular "LOOK"... I think a lot of people, gay or otherwise have wayyy too thin a skin and percieve lots of things as being "slights or insults" when they are not.

[Departed Member]

Thank you for your re-inforcement over the "G" issue, Skip! I wasn't sure whether the (current) terminology was used in the USA, or whether it was just a UK, or European, usage. Certainly, our younger son has been using the word in the modern context for some time now. Where did he pick this up? Err, from some of his chums who happen to follow the homosexual lifestyle, apparently.

I'd like to point out that I have often seen posts referring to crossdressers and transvestites in a similar way - i.e. very negative. I don't understand this. It's possibly a part of the attempt at masculinity reinforcement that you mention.

Unfortunately, in the past, there were cases of homosexuals (pre-legality) dressing 'as women' in an attempt to 'procure' young men, or even boys.
For whatever reason, that pre-conception, however mis-guided, has stuck - re-inforced in particular, by certain Sunday newspapers.

I don't see why you feel that skirts need to be perceived as 'masculine' or 'feminine', Merlin. Trousers are not gender specific. Why should skirts be?

You haven't read what I put, in context, have you? It is not my perception that matters (or was 'up for discussion'), its rather Joe & Jane Public's perception. Seeing a 'bloke in a skirt' challenges their (fixed?) mindset. A pretty, flowered frock is only going to re-inforce "bad/pervert" (worn by a man) stereotyping, while a denim skirt is (apparently)representative of (so-called) 'masculinity'. Why do you think so many women feel 'obligated' to wear jeans, these days? Women's pressure groups/'activists' have been ramming home to women for decades now they need to 'adopt' perceived 'masculine' identities to assert themselves. Utter poppycock, maybe, but you'd have to be pretty naive not to realise what has been happening around all of us. Be a man! Read a woman's magazine!

You speak of 'so-called freestylers' in a condescending manner and assert that they desire to be 'outrageously conspicuous'.

Do you read other forums? The 'look at me' ethic is surely what freestyling is all about? "Gender-bending", I think it used to be called. Remember Boy George? That's freestyling! Despite the press hell-bent/determined to refer to him as 'a boy in a dress', I've never seen a picture of him thus clad - have you?

I simply want to wear whatever clothing I choose and contribute toward the relaxation of the current social restrictions that are placed on male costume.

Agreed! 100%!

[owen]

Just to clarify what I meant, what I was saying was that if they had called me gay because of my clothing, I would have been inclined to return the "compliment". Nothing more. I don't see skirts as either masculine or feminine, just as comfortable practical garments for everybody. Similarly, cycling shorts are obviously the best thing for cycling.

[Skirt Chaser]

Alex, I think you will find through more exposure to this forum that posters here are pretty well self-regulated. The community does have people who speak up to present alternate views the rare times when something sounds intolerant. Speaking of which...

Why do you think so many women feel 'obligated' to wear jeans, these days? Women's pressure groups/'activists' have been ramming home to women for decades now they need to 'adopt' perceived 'masculine' identities to assert themselves. Utter poppycock, maybe, but you'd have to be pretty naive not to realise what has been happening around all of us. Be a man! Read a woman's magazine!

Poppycock indeed, not the described agenda but a belief in it. Women wearing jeans are very similar to men who wear skirts, it is about wearing what you like and feel comfortable in. Merlin, I recall you mentioning before that there are actual women who complain they wear jeans to conform but I can assure you it is a small minority. "So many" is not an accurate description of the situation.

While I don't read magazines aimed at women (most are drivel driven by the products advertised) the jist I get from popular culture is an opposite emphasis. My sense is that in the past women felt they had to emulate the men to succeed in business. Thankfully, now women can grow up knowing that it is not 'acting like a man' if they show their intelligence, assertiveness, confidence and so on.

Quiet Mouse

[crfriend]

Merlin is very correct that the young today use "gayness" as a non-homosexual slight having to do with poor clothing choices. I think we are (at least I hope we are) past all the "A man in a skirt is a Queen or gay or anything other than a comfortable person in a comfortable piece of apparel."

Offhand, and I do spend some time out and about in the communities I inhabit, I've not heard the term "gay" used to describe anything other than the "homosexual lifestyle". Once in a blue moon (or more seldom, actually) one will actually hear it used in its proper meaning of "exuberant", but that's getting less and less common. As near as I can tell in my part of the world, it's either an insult or a (unique to another community) term of endearment.

The 'look at me' ethic is surely what freestyling is all about? "Gender-bending", I think it used to be called.

I'm going to call bunk on this one, too. Whist "freestyling" can certainly be about "look at me!", it can also be about tossing aside previously-held notions as to what a body is supposed to wear (i.e. "men wear tr*users, full stop"). In that light, the lot of us might be considered, by some, as "freestylers" (unless we're beholden to the kilt-costume). "Freestyling" can also be about exploring what looks good, what feels good, and what one is comfortable in. Unfortunately, issues of personal bias and taste also get bunged into the mix, so it's somtimes difficult to make sense what comes out the other end.

So, where does "freestyling" end and the "masculine" kilt-costume begin, and are the costumers deceiving themselves? (OK, that last one was a bit inflammatory, and it if got your goat just hold on.) Any male in pretty much any so-called western society that wears anything other than trousers is going to get pigeonholed, perhaps in places he'd rather not be; we just have to accept that. Now, what makes a denim skirt less masculine than a full kilt rig? I posit nothing. It's in the way it's worn. Taking it a step further, what makes a flowing tiered skirt in a dark colour less masculine than a denim skirt? Worn with western-traditional (and I am writing from a western point of view) mens' shirts and whatnot, I'd posit that little about the skirt is non-masculine, especially if the man can carry it well. Now, here's the jump -- substitute a print for a dark solid and see how fast the guys run; is that rational? I think not.

As far as "Boy George" goes, I didn't follow it in the '80s and I don't follow it now. His/her/its stage costumes are of precisely no importance in the larger picture.

[Departed Member]

My sense is that in the past women felt they had to emulate the men to succeed in business. Thankfully, now women can grow up knowing that it is not 'acting like a man' if they show their intelligence, assertiveness, confidence and so on.
Quiet Mouse

Yes, I would certainly agree that is how things ought to be. I sense you are probably not from the UK, though, when you say: "Merlin, I recall you mentioning before that there are actual women who complain they wear jeans to conform but I can assure you it is a small minority. "So many" is not an accurate description of the situation." Whilst I agree, there are not many brave enough to openly state it, there is no doubt that 'following the flock', as much due to outside influences as it is, is now 'de rigeur'.

I'm saddened, as a human being, to see so many women dressed (jeans, thick coats, etc.) as for a chill winter's day, in the height of summer. It is (seriously!) not healthy! The 'intelligent, assertive and confident' (if I may paraphrase you!) women rarely fall into (in my view, heavily influenced by that of my female doctor) that 'trap'. The little 'tactical' exercises we carried out at my last place of work, clearly underlined the premise that skirts are (still) an all powerful 'tool' in the professional environment. I was equally surprised that the tr*user-suit-wearing 'haridans' of HR were equally disliked (even despised) by women in the company as the men.

The UK has for so long been a matriachal society. It is, I fully admit, difficult to see that women elsewhere (USA?) have felt a need to assert themselves in what they consider a 'masculine' way. I suspect that is why (I perceive) they are continuing to 'fall short' of achieving what they should in anything approaching an 'equal' society.

[Departed Member]

All,

This is an interesting thread, to be sure, and I lean toward agreeing with AlexTheBird and ChristopherJ. We shouldn't be derogatory and disrespectful toward women and gay folks, nor should we feel that we are like them just because we choose to wear skirts. On the contrary: I sense that the majority of us on this forum are straight men. I include myself in this category, even though I'm sure that by shaving my legs and wearing pantyhose & high heels, I come across more femme than most of you do. Still, remember that I make no attempt to dress or appear as a woman from the waist up. I shave my legs, but not my mustache.

When curious people in public ask me about my appearance, I explain to them that this is simply a form of expression for me. Although I wish I had a dollar for every time someone has asked me if I'm gay, I'm not offended and I always explain my situation patiently. Indeed, gender expression/identity are quite separate from sexual preference. The former is how we identify and express ourselves on the gender spectrum, while the latter represents the gender with whom we wish to be intimate.

After thinking carefully about this over a fair number of years, I have concluded that in many ways we are in the same boat as the LGBT community (Lesbian/Gay/Bisexual/Transgender). They suffer tremendous discrimination and a deeply negative judgement from society, and so do we. Along with the LBGT folks, we demonstrate tremendous courage and determination when we come out in public and express who we are. We all deserve to feel proud about that.

As for worries of being perceived as too feminine or gay, I suggest that the ability to overcome this fear is very clearly a sign of great strength and conviction. I've gone a fair distance down this road, and I'm proud of it. If a transvestite walks by looking female from head to toe, I will smile at her and compliment her pretty dress even though I'm femme from the waist down only. She doesn't have to know that I'm wearing men's briefs under my pantyhose. If a macho asshole stares at me in disbelief, I will smile back and try to engage him in respectful conversation. I'll compliment his camouflage jacket if he's wearing one, and I might mention that I have a camouflage skirt too! He doesn't have to know that the lubricant I use on my semi-automatic rifles also works great on the zippers of my miniskirts!

Cheers, John

[Emerald Witch]

We shouldn't be derogatory and disrespectful toward women and gay folks, nor should we feel that we are like them just because we choose to wear skirts. On the contrary: I sense that the majority of us on this forum are straight men. I include myself in this category, even though I'm sure that by shaving my legs and wearing pantyhose & high heels, I come across more femme than most of you do. Still, remember that I make no attempt to dress or appear as a woman from the waist up. I shave my legs, but not my mustache.
Cheers, John

John, your type of man is my type of hero. I could gush, honestly, but I'd be here all day typing, and I only have an hour. Thank you so much. (For the whole post, of course, not just this excerpt.)

[Departed Member]

Hello Emerald,

Are you from Kansas or Oz? Wicked or otherwise? Ha ha, park your broomstick at the door...

Thank you for the kudos. It's true, we skirt-wearing guys really do have our work cut out for us to fight the fear and discrimination that's out there. If we don't think this is the case, we're kidding ourselves, no?

Here is a picture of me in one of my outfits. It was taken in a public library, where I enjoy going to read and browse. This is one of my more sensual ensembles, black all over and with a leather skirt. I've worn this outfit with stockings too on special occasions, and that's a really terrific look. I have a somewhat higher pair of heels for that situation. For the library, pantyhose and medium heels are ok.

Cheers, John

[Emerald Witch]

Hello Emerald,

Are you from Kansas or Oz? Wicked or otherwise? Ha ha, park your broomstick at the door...

Thank you for the kudos. It's true, we skirt-wearing guys really do have our work cut out for us to fight the fear and discrimination that's out there. If we don't think this is the case, we're kidding ourselves, no?

Here is a picture of me in one of my outfits. It was taken in a public library, where I enjoy going to read and browse. This is one of my more sensual ensembles, black all over and with a leather skirt. I've worn this outfit with stockings too on special occasions, and that's a really terrific look. I have a somewhat higher pair of heels for that situation. For the library, pantyhose and medium heels are ok.

Cheers, John

Things just haven't been the same for me since that house fell on my sister...

Actually I live near Seattle, Washington, nicknamed the Emerald City, and I'm not wicked at all. A tad sinful by some people's standards, but I no longer go to those churches. My skin isn't really green, only a light olive.

Don't make me call my flying monkeys now.

Pictures like that one can get a girl in trouble. We need to set up an area in this board somewhere, where a lady can have a private chat with a gentleman and not have to be quite so proper, and I'll tell you what I REALLY think! But for now we are in public, and I'll just say -- nice legs!

(wow!)

[knickerless]

It is so refreshing to have another female member to this group. I think we need to have the women behind us to achieve anything or get anywhere. Regarding your request to send private messages to other members. I believe it is possible but diabled at present. Can we not have this enabled by request. I know some people do not like private messages and some people have misused this facility in the past. I for one would have no problem receiving private messages.

Nick

[SkirtDude]

deleted