MIS in Wikipedia

[Departed Member]

I fully agree with Bob about the fact that there's a whole world of difference between those two phrases, "Men in Skirts" and "Skirts for Men". The former phrase has always troubled me, as the inference is "Men in any style ('femme' or otherwise) of Skirt", whereas there is little or no ambiguity in the phrase, "Skirts for Men".

However, I don't personally believe I am (consciously) making a 'fashion' choice, but I am certainly making a 'lifestyle' choice, albeit tempered by deference to the wife's concerns. My only 'fashion criteria' is that the skirts are what I consider to be of clearly 'masculine appearance'. In other words, 'style' over-rules 'fashion'!

[ChristopherJ]

I would prefer the article were filed under "Skirts for Men", rather than "Men in Skirts". It makes it clear that this is a fashion choice, not a lifestyle choice.

It is both - in my opinion. As much as we might prefer this to be a simple issue of a fashion choice - men wearing any form of skirted garments automatically raise other issues, at least in the minds of many people. So it is a little dishonest to present the male wearing of skirts as being merely a fashion choice.

To place an article under the title of 'Skirts for Men' could trivialise the many serious issues that surround men wearing skirts. It could be portrayed as just another fashion fad - rather than a serious attempt by some men to break free of some of the social expectations and limitations that have been placed upon them since birth.

Also, it emphasizes that the skirt is being adapted to the man, not vice versa. These men are no different than any other man.

I believe that men who wear skirts are different from other men. They wear skirts - and that is a serious lifestyle statement. It can not be compared to wearing certain clothing, like brown socks, or not wearing a tie to work etc. To me, at least, men who wear skirts (of any description) have chosen to challenge the validity of some aspects of our social rules. Very few men actually do such a thing - ever. So I would suggest that the emphasis should remain on the word 'man' rather than on the word 'skirt'.

That's just my opinion. It's absolutely correct - but just my opinion . . .

[Steve 1]

I think Christopher is right Men in Skirts is the movement, with political and other issues.

But you can buy skirts for men, just as you can buy anything else, without getting involved in the politics.

Two sides of the same coin.

[ChristopherJ]

I think Christopher is right - Men in Skirts is the movement . .

In fact, this could be more than just a movement . . .

It could be an ADVENTURE!!

:cheer: :cheer: :cheer: SKIRT POWER!! :cheer: :cheer: :cheer:

Sorry. Got a bit carried away there . . .



(a half-remembered quote from a film, I think)

[Sasquatch]

I think Christopher is right Men in Skirts is the movement, with political and other issues.

But you can buy skirts for men, just as you can buy anything else, without getting involved in the politics.

Two sides of the same coin.

I agree. It's about the men, not the skirts. Calling it skirts for men seems just too effeminate.
Sasq

[Departed Member]

I agree. It's about the men, not the skirts. Calling it skirts for men seems just too effeminate. Sasq

Oh dear! My viewpoint here is on the opposite tack! I don't for one minute doubt Joe Public is more likely to equate, "Men in Skirts" with, "Men in ANY form of skirt, be it floral, flouncy or frilly, but very definitely effeminate!", whereas "Skirts for MEN" surely (esp. if you emphasise the MEN!) strongly implies 'non-femme'? It is far, far more likely to encourage any bloke wavering on the edge of actually trying a skirt on - no 'femme' connotation to worry about! The only way there ever could be a 'Movement' as such, is to be actively seen to 'break the (perceived) link' with the CD/TV brigade. Sadly, I suspect their ranks would be the more likely to grow stronger on a "Men in Skirts" ticket. To our detriment.

I just wonder if there's an alternative phrase that might have some credence that's acceptable to the widely disparate views here. Just as long as it doesn't include that dreadful acronym, "MUG", with all of it's negative associations!!!!!!!!!

[Departed Member]

I agree. It's about the men, not the skirts. Calling it skirts for men seems just too effeminate. Sasq

Oh dear! My viewpoint here is on the opposite tack! I don't for one minute doubt Joe Public is more likely to equate, "Men in Skirts" with, "Men in ANY form of skirt, be it floral, flouncy or frilly, but very definitely effeminate!", whereas "Skirts for MEN" surely (esp. if you emphasise the MEN!) strongly implies 'non-femme'? It is far, far more likely to encourage any bloke wavering on the edge of actually trying a skirt on - no 'femme' connotation to worry about! The only way there ever could be a 'Movement' as such, is to be actively seen to 'break the (perceived) link' with the CD/TV brigade. Sadly, I suspect their ranks would be the more likely to grow stronger on a "Men in Skirts" ticket. To our detriment.

I just wonder if there's an alternative phrase that might have some credence that's acceptable to the widely disparate views here. Just as long as it doesn't include that dreadful acronym, "MUG", with all of its negative associations!!!!!!!!!

[ChristopherJ]

Oh dear! My viewpoint here is on the opposite tack! I don't for one minute doubt Joe Public is more likely to equate, "Men in Skirts" with, "Men in ANY form of skirt, be it floral, flouncy or frilly, but very definitely effeminate!", whereas "Skirts for MEN" surely (esp. if you emphasise the MEN!) strongly implies 'non-femme'?

I don't see a problem with people here having different viewpoints. That's part of life - isn't it?

My perspective on the two phrases is as follows:

The phrase "Men in Skirts" to my mind states that this is a group of men who chose to wear skirts. It says nothing, one way or another, about the feminity or masculinity of the said skirts. I don't see where you get the effeminate overtones from.

The phrase "Skirts for Men" to my mind says that here is a collection of skirts that have been designed or made to be worn by men. Again, it says nothing to me either way about the femininity or masculinity of the said skirts - although the phrase "Skirts for Men" does have a girly ring to it IMO.

I think that your strong association of the first phrase with an effeminate meaning could simply be your own personal association - as I do not have the same association at all. In fact - in complete contrast, to my mind, the second phrase (Skirts for Men) has a greater overtone of femininity.

Hope that makes sense.

[Departed Member]

Hi, Christopher J!

From my perspective, I visualise (a) Skirts of all possible styles, colours, lengths, materials, frilly, fussy, effeminate - being worn by, err, Men = "Men in Skirts". My wife's best (female) friend, when I asked her to 'define' the phrase, said as much, too.

Whereas I visualise (b) Kilts, Denim skirts with pockets, zip flies, (deep) belt loops, etc., or 'cargo' style skirts, as having a definite 'masculine' appearance, .... especially when worn by Men = "Skirts for Men". I've even 'challenged' some of my/our female friends/work colleagues, when so clad, on the basis of their 'crossdressing'! "Ah, well, we can get away with it!", being the usual response.

[ChristopherJ]

From my perspective, I visualise (a) Skirts of all possible styles, colours, lengths, materials, frilly, fussy, effeminate - being worn by, err, Men = "Men in Skirts". My wife's best (female) friend, when I asked her to 'define' the phrase, said as much, too.

Whereas I visualise (b) Kilts, Denim skirts with pockets, zip flies, (deep) belt loops, etc., or 'cargo' style skirts, as having a definite 'masculine' appearance, .... especially when worn by Men = "Skirts for Men". I've even 'challenged' some of my/our female friends/work colleagues, when so clad, on the basis of their 'crossdressing'! "Ah, well, we can get away with it!", being the usual response.

Thanks for making your thoughts clear Merlin.

I don't see why you have associated words like "frilly", "fussy" and "effeminate" with the phrase 'Men in Skirts'. I cannot see any automatic association there at all. Why should you associate these words with men? Or, for that matter, why should you associate these words with 'skirts'? Not all skirts are frilly, fussy or effeminate.

In contrast - (deepens voice . . ) I cannot see why you automatically associate styles such as kilts, denim skirts, zip flies etc. - with the phrase 'skirts for men'.

My own interpretations here come from the placement of the words. To me, 'Men in Skirts' puts the emphasis on MEN - as that is the first word - so my mind first of all thinks of MEN, i. e. a masculine image - and then reads the rest of the phrase and sees SKIRTS - and only then puts the two together. The result for me is an emphasis on the (masculine) MEN).

My "mind picture" is very different when I read the phrase 'Skirts for Men' - as then I first read the word SKIRTS - so I am automatically thinking of skirts etc. - in other words a feminine image - and I then read the rest and see MEN - and then put the two together. The result for me is an emphasis on the (feminine) SKIRTS.

-------------------------------------

I will leave it there. Probably we have debated this enough. I don't want to bore people to death. :rolleyes:

I am quite tickled (find it funny) that some people who wear skirts are very concerned about being seen as masculine. I believe that it is largely a persons' behaviour that determines whether they are identified as 'masculine' or 'feminine' - rather than the clothes he (or she) wears.

I wear quite short mini skirts sometimes. And tights. I don't feel the slightest bit feminine when I'm wearing stuff like that.

Actually, I was chuffed yesterday when I was out around town in a mini. One guy (a student) said "Hey - I like your skirt!" in passing - but that didn't mean as much to me as the women who was pushing a pram (with baby) - and husband in tow - who simply said to me when she 'overtook' me as we walked along - "I love your skirt".

Fabulous! Made my day!

[Departed Member]

You're probably right, Christopher J! We have 'hogged' this one a bit, between us, haven't we? My 'perception' is partly based on the reactions of others to such issues, but equally to my schooldays when we were 'introduced' to debating. The emphasis was always supposed to be placed on the end of a statement - a bit like a torpedo running & exploding on contact, metaphorically speaking!

I find myself in total agreement with you (you can get up off the floor now!) about a person's behavior being the focus of 'identity' in a person. Women seem far able to identify the 'masculinity' one projects, and as you found, open enough to comment.

[ChrisM]

What means please "chuffed"?

[Steve 1]

Chuffed: very pleased and brimming with pride

[ChrisM]

Thank you Steve!

[Charlie]

I've even 'challenged' some of my/our female friends/work colleagues, when so clad, on the basis of their 'crossdressing'! "Ah, well, we can get away with it!", being the usual response.

They get away with it because they've been doing it for so long, but had a fight at the start. It's all a question of perception. When girls started wearing pretty dresses with jeans underneath, we all thought 'yuk!' - I still think it looks horrible, but that look has become acceptable now. So guys, keep on bashing Joe and Josephine public with men wearing masculine skirts, and we'll eventually beat it into their little heads and then we will get away with it

Charlie