Why can't MEN admit what the kilt is really about?

[STEVIE]

Once again, you can't call it out...

Dust, I will on one point, a question, you stated that it was absurd to suggest that kilt wearing is a cover for wearing female clothes, to which I made a specific reply.
I'd welcome your comments, with the added advantage of getting back to topic too.
This thread really has nothing to do with feminism either, it is all about the clothes and the power of societal attitude on men who dare to be different.
In an entirely different role, I speak to many men who are desperate to the point of contemplating suicide.
Had my circumstances and attitude been different on that Saturday, I could very well have been one of them.
This is not melodrama based on any theory, it is real life, up close and bloody awful for too many guys.
Steve.

[Mouse]

If anyone feels like they have the right to criticise my attitude ponder this.
The majority of the male guests would have been in a skirt called a kilt, I was effectively excluded because I actively wear a skirt which is given it's proper name.
That said, no regrets, because there is nothing better than telling the truth and finding acceptance for that truth.

OK Steve, I have no rights to criticise, but I am trying to understand and unpack this thread. So correct me where I go wrong....

A Scottish wedding was held in Scotland on the 2nd of November. All the principal men attended in hired Scottish kilts of a particular tartan, with all the trimmings and looked like the guy on the front of the shortbread tin. It was a great laugh with the lady friends/partners making jokes about what was under the kilts, while the guys paraded round like they were in Brave Heart. The bride wore a white dress with a tartan sash to match the tartan of the kilts. The whole event was held in stunning Scottish scenery with a building made of granite to hold the event in.

A few weeks before..... In to the wedding planning walks a man in a dress talking about kilts being skirts and those that wear them wanting to be women. He is asked to attend as the previously mentioned shortbread tin, and refuses on some principles/previous grievence/hurt.

On the day, the wedding goes ahead as planned and everybody gets drunk but no man cards are lost. On the same day, a man and lady with a dog have a nice day out in some other stunning Scottish scenery. Everybody is happy.......

Me? I made a similar decision to not attend church with my brother and mother, since I didn't have trousers and didn't want to upset the holiday vibe. http://www.skirtcafe.org/forums/viewtop ... 83#p261083
Pre public skirting, for weddings I have gone along and bought the required suit or matched my tie, or whatever was required by the bride.

Now I wear skirts all of the time, I have attended a wedding in a black kilt and heels, where I was just an ordinary guest and my aunts funeral in the same black kilt with flat DMs. Faced with a family wedding... I would probably do whatever was required, since I love my skirting style, but I would want to be at a family wedding.

Of course I have no idea of Steve's family predicament, history, hurt etc. We each have to navigate our own families as we see fit, since none of us chose our family and we can't change them.

I do agree that some men use a kilt as a male disguise for a normal skirt.... ME !!!! But I do not think the average Scottish bag pipe player or the guy wearing a hired kilt at a wedding because the bride thought it would be cute, is necessary a man wanting to be a skirted person. However any man who finds himself in a skirt/kilt may like it and have less of a problem to do it again. Then the same man walks into a contra dance class and finds being handed a skirt less of a problem..... I think the more men in skirts of what ever shape and form, helps the rest of us with our skirting.
Stevie, you are also not unique with your kilts. There are many men walking around London in skirted outfits, for one reason or another. How many of them like the feeling of a skirt and wish they too could wear more skirts? Even the latest fashion shorts with so much material in the legs are like wearing a skirt with a modesty snap between the front and back, those guys too probably wish they could rock a skirt, but hide in the flappy shorts?

I think we have to relax and let everybody wear what ever they like and pack in making assumptions about people who happen to wear something different.

[SkirtsDad]

A couple of related articles I've found that might be of interest to some:


Heilbrunn Timeline of Art History Essays
The Kilt
https://www.metmuseum.org/toah/hd/kilt/hd_kilt.htm


What is Difference Between Skirt & Kilt?
https://help.scottishkiltshop.com/hc/en ... Skirt-Kilt

[STEVIE]

I think we have to relax and let everybody wear what ever they like and pack in making assumptions about people who happen to wear something different.

In principal, I agree Mouse, and sure that's the ideal scenario.
My family history and difficulties are well documented, they are mentioned in the Herald article, so no secrets on that score.
Fact is that I choose very carefully whom I will compromise for and family in general have not earned that degree of loyalty.
Actually, my daughter is unique in having that privilege!
Ironically, had I attended in a suit, I'd not have been any more welcomed anyway, so no point really.
I'm going to put in a snap that Susie took this afternoon, and is a perfect example of the high regard that I have for the traditional Scottish Kilt.

20241110_145556.jpg

Tongue in cheek, but humour helps too.
Especially note the wording on my top, I really don't give a damn. Clarity, I hope.

What is Difference Between Skirt & Kilt?

Actually SkirtsDad, based on those photos about £1,500 UKS. I own a skirt very much like it which cost £80.00, the kilt, the sky's the limit.
Steve.

[SkirtsDad]

What is Difference Between Skirt & Kilt?

Actually SkirtsDad, based on those photos about £1,500 UKS. I own a skirt very much like it which cost £80.00, the kilt, the sky's the limit.
Steve.

Well, sorry to dissapoint, but the kilt pictured in that article probably works out cheaper that your skirt lol
I found it here:
https://scottishkiltshop.com/products/clark-tartan-kilt

[STEVIE]

Well, sorry to dissapoint, but the kilt pictured in that article probably works out cheaper that your skirt lol
I found it here:

Not disappointed or surprised, SD, that's a cheap knock-off of the "real" kilt, however, no less valid in my opinion.
They are all based on a fallacy in the first place so pay your money take your choice.
The skirt, on the other hand is what you see, is what you get, a nice enough design and comfortable too.
Just one snag, made for women so taboo for a lot of men.
The girl could wear that kilt, 99% of folks would pay it no heed, go figure.
Steve.

[DrFishnets]

I have a similar dilemma to Stevie and the wedding but it involves visiting my partner’s parents. As I don’t like wearing trousers or jeans anymore I ask if I can wear my skirts but my partner forbids me because her parents come from a time it was frowned upon for a man to wear skirts which I guess it still is to this day, However, the crazy thing is I am allowed to wear my kilt and I can wear it casually as well with a t-shirt of jersey and Doc Marten boots and even nude tights. The logic is crazy as there is no difference between a knee length skirt and a kilt. The only difference is the kilt is tartan.

[new2skirts]

As far as the actual article, it makes a lot of great points about kilts: rules, snobbery, history, and baggage. But the final one about men in kilts really wanting to wear women's clothes, seems absurd and unsupported, even to someone who wears both non-traditional kilts and female marketed skirts.

I'll be the first to admit that I've been envious over the years of women's clothing options, and that I wear kilts and other skirts in part to expand a similar range of options for men. And I've moved away from kilts in part due to the aforementioned rules, snobbery, and baggage.

Some men who really want to wear women's clothes have bought a kilt as it was a way to rationalise they are still wearing men's clothing. Perhaps not so common men's clothing, but a stepping stone to jean skirts etc...

The majority who buy kilts love the "history and heritage" behind them, especially those in the US with links to Scotland, no matter how tenuous. They will embrace the "THCD" (Traditional Highland Cultural Dress) and even enforce it, in terms of hose (socks), sporrans, brogues worn with the kilt.

Others love the variety of tartans and are more flamboyant. And with the advent of Instagram, Reddit, Tumblr etc a lot of young people may legitimize their skirt wearing under the increasingly acceptable LGBT banner. Others just are like, this is me, and wear what skirts they like, such as Mark Bryan, Skirtyscot, and there was an Instagrammer in London called Chris who had some fitted pencil skirts custom made for him. Very few bad an eyelid, I've seen other guys in skirts of all types, but surrounded by friends, or others out and about.

Yes, there's lot of baggage (and expense) that comes with traditional kilts...

[Barleymower]

"Some" is the operative word.
To put things in perspective, there are 1500000 skirts for sale on a well known auction site. This is just a glimpse of what's out there, second hand!
On the same site there are 1900 men's skirts and half of those are tarten.
The men's market is miniscule

[STEVIE]

"Some" is the operative word.
To put things in perspective, there are 1500000 skirts for sale on a well known auction site. This is just a glimpse of what's out there, second hand!
On the same site there are 1900 men's skirts and half of those are tarten.
The men's market is miniscule

Since I was the one to kick this whole damned mess off in the first place, with a rant or two, I may as well stay in character.
One thing that is disappointing, are the ones who are conspicuous by their absence and abject silence.
Kith, Kin. bloody minded relations and now add certain "friends"!
If it wasn't so bloody serious, it would be seriously funny.
Proves another belief of mine, just do your thing, writing about it in an obscure corner of cyberspace changes nothing at all.
Sorry BM, but you are wrong, that's not the "men's" market, that actually amounts to 1,501,900, skirts for folks.
Men's skirts are going nowhere, not because of "The Kilt", that's a red herring, irrelevant.
It's about the fact that men can't or wont admit what men are really about.
Steve.

[Barleymower]

Sorry BM, but you are wrong, that's not the "men's" market, that actually amounts to 1,501,900, skirts for folks.
Men's skirts are going nowhere, not because of "The Kilt", that's a red herring, irrelevant.
It's about the fact that men can't or wont admit what men are really about.

Stevie what are men really about?

[STEVIE]

Stevie what are men really about?

Sorry BM, you're asking the wrong guy.
I only know what I'm about, being me, and learning really not to give a damn.
Except for the special people, and dogs, in my life, that is.
Steve.

[Barleymower]

Stevie what are men really about?

Sorry BM, you're asking the wrong guy.
I only know what I'm about, being me, and learning really not to give a damn.
Except for the special people, and dogs, in my life, that is.
Steve.

Steve I thought a man of your calibre would have a go at that one. A quick google of that one says this:

#A man wants to be financially secure so he can adequately provide for himself and family.

#He is not afraid to show the world who you are, exactly as you are.

#He rejects toxic behaviour and embracies the differences of others and uplifting those around him.

Men have a lot to live up too. Basically when describing a man imagine noble attributes and there you have it. A man protects without seeking protection.

This is where the kilt comes in. A man can wear a kilt becuase that is a male space. His role as protector is not challenged. Wearing a skirt is a female space, go there and a man is no longer a man. He will be greeted by a big sign FORBIDDEN.

What are men really about? That's anyone guess. Nobody is asking them. They are too busy telling them what they need to live up too.

[new2skirts]

Stevie what are men really about?

Sorry BM, you're asking the wrong guy.
I only know what I'm about, being me, and learning really not to give a damn.
Except for the special people, and dogs, in my life, that is.
Steve.

Steve I thought a man of your calibre would have a go at that one. A quick google of that one says this:

#A man wants to be financially secure so he can adequately provide for himself and family.

#He is not afraid to show the world who you are, exactly as you are.

#He rejects toxic behaviour and embracies the differences of others and uplifting those around him.

Men have a lot to live up too. Basically when describing a man imagine noble attributes and there you have it. A man protects without seeking protection.

This is where the kilt comes in. A man can wear a kilt becuase that is a male space. His role as protector is not challenged. Wearing a skirt is a female space, go there and a man is no longer a man. He will be greeted by a big sign FORBIDDEN.

What are men really about? That's anyone guess. Nobody is asking them. They are too busy telling them what they need to live up too.

Take a look on Instagram at the likes of Vicson Wong, RomainFashion and countless others on Reddit who are out there, skirted and don't give a sh!t what others think. Perhaps it's a generational thing, those older brought up in the 60s and 70s are still bound by lots of rules in their minds and have defined men's behaviour and expectation, as breadwinner, strong, don't show emotion etc... wheras the younger generation have been told Be your best you, you do you and express it more in the more fluid dress, or wear what they feel like. Some may do this using the popular LGBT banner, having notified friends, colleagues at work (see KMTLMN on Instagram, with longer hair, but a guy who could be mistaken for a lady but wears some smart workwear and dresses. There's Chris Hill in London, UK who seems to work from home but also is seen in his part of SW London in fitted pencil skirts and smart boots, in the same style as Mark Bryan who used to post here (seems to be more focused on his modelling but haven't seen posts recently on Instagram either)

There are countless other men on more common platforms who are out there in their kilts and skirts, no damns given.

For the majority of men, it's just easier to throw on your boxers, vest, jeans, socks, shoes rather than looking for either kilt, sporran, hose, brogues, or skirt, tights shoes, handbag, plus having pockets and not watching how to sit. Depends on work environment too. A kilt is impractical on a building site...

Kilts still command high prices, and are still very popular on mainstream sites. In our little corner of cyberspace, that coud pass us by as most do not know this site exists and can see no evidence of proof (pictures) unless they join. Youngsters love to see pictures as reference, sometimes validation or inspiration. The majority aren't pigeon holing what men are and are not (unless in political spheres where too much emphasis was put on woke agendas in the last few years)