sorry to burst any bubbles around here, but menswear isn't clothing for men. it's a generic look that emulates men's styles.
a menswear skirt is simply tailored to fit and hang like men's trousers would. oxford high heels are sometimes referred to as menswear shoes.
similarly, crossdressing and transvestism are 2 names for the same thing. like elephant & pachyderm. the uses of these words have changed many times over the years, to finally be (currently) accepted as any man wearing any women's clothing or accoutrements.
granted, the usual idea of a crossdresser is "priscilla, queen of the desert", but almost all of us will be lumped in with that. we can complain & exhort all we want, but this is the plain & simple truth of the situation.
we are all crossdressers here, unless you're only using kilts or sarongs or skirts originally designed for men.
in fact, seeing as how most clothing is now also designed for women, most men can be labelled as crossdressers.
menswear & crossdressing
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r1g0r
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menswear & crossdressing
you know... george orwell warned us!
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"Moderation is a colorless, insipid thing to counsel. To live less would not be living."
Sister M. Madeleva Wolff (1887-1964), CSC
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"Moderation is a colorless, insipid thing to counsel. To live less would not be living."
Sister M. Madeleva Wolff (1887-1964), CSC
Maybe there's a language issue going on here. When I go to the store that advertises a "menswear collection," I find a big selection of fancy shirts, suits, ties, polo shirts --- all made for men. In my experience, it has nothing to do with women, although I won't dispute the possibility that women's clothing can get labeled as "menswear" as well. Reminds me of the "boyshorts" popular with (female) dancers today.
I agree that cross-dressing and transvestism are the same thing. However, I must disagree that any time a man wears a piece of clothing designed for (or perceived as being designed for) women, that it's cross-dressing --- although some people, especially those who haven't thought much about it, probably believe that to be the case. Remember that a woman isn't "cross-dressing" just because she picked up a shirt and tie from the men's aisle.
But at SkirtCafe, we believe we can forge a new direction in the gender universe, rather than being held captive by outdated (and often ignorant) views. Gender is a social construct, and we can play an active role in defining (and re-defining) that construct. We are not passive recipients of others' ideas of who we are, but rather active agents who are fully capable of self-actualization and effecting change on the rest of society.
Not to beat a dead horse, but... there are plenty of cross-dresser websites out there, including even a whole genre of cross-dresser fiction! A quick read of this literature shows major differences, in philosophy and practice, between the cross-dresser crowd and the SkirtCafe crowd. I summarize some of the salient points here:
1. Cross-dressers have a female persona, which they "go into" when "dressed femme." They switch between a masculine personna and a "femme" personna as a way to access different "sides" of their personality. We have only one personna, and it's masculine. To the extent that we have different sides to our personalities, we try to integrate them into one being.
2. Cross-dressers on-line (and in other cross-dressing circles) almost universally use only their femme names. You'll be hard-pressed to find a cross-dresser on-line who will tell you his real name (or even any alternative masculine-sounding name) while admitting he's a cross-dresser, because he's not interested in relating to you with that "side" of his personality at that point. At SkirtCafe, we have only one name. Some of us use pseudonyms on-line, of course, but that's common in many on-line areas for other reasons.
3. Cross-dressers live with an underlying assumption that wearing "women's clothes" --- especially skirts --- has a transformative effect on the man who dons them, thereby feminizing him and helping bring out his femme personality. We believe the opposite --- that wearing "women's clothes" has a masculizing effect on the garment, thereby turning it into "this man's clothes." Put another way, we believe our Mojo is stronger than any perceived feminizing power of a skirt.
4. Cross-dressers for the most part keep their "dressing" secret. We generally do not try so hard to keep our skirt-wearing a secret, and many of us are seen in public, by our friends, wearing as skirt.
5. Cross-dressers do a lot of stuff to try to "pass" in public as a "real woman" --- breast forms, padding, hair removal, heavy makeup to cover stubble. They compete with each other on how much skin they can show and still "pass," posting photos to prove it. They work on "talking femme" and "walking femme." They discuss this stuff endlessly on their forums. We at SkirtCafe have no need for that, of course, because we're not performing as anyone other than our old (masculine) selves.
6. Cross-dressers, in their actions and philosophy, uphold out-dated rigid gender stereotypes. More often than not, they seek to emulate a feminine "ideal" that women threw out and moved on from 40 years ago. Thus, cross-dressers are retro, and do little to move things forward --- their actions do little to make people question their underlying assumptions on gender. We at SkirtCafe are on the cutting edge of gender and gender expression --- our actions get people to think and broaden their horizons.
7. Cross-dressing is about pretending to be someone else, about switching back and forth between the "real self" and the "other self." It is about this other self even more than it is about the clothing --- but the clothing is a means to that end.
But SkirtCafe is a fashion web site for men, and it's about (the cutting edge of) men's fashion.
OK, 'nuff said.
PS: Personally, I think cross-dressing is creepy. That's why we've forged new ways at Tom's Cafe, now SkirtCafe.
I agree that cross-dressing and transvestism are the same thing. However, I must disagree that any time a man wears a piece of clothing designed for (or perceived as being designed for) women, that it's cross-dressing --- although some people, especially those who haven't thought much about it, probably believe that to be the case. Remember that a woman isn't "cross-dressing" just because she picked up a shirt and tie from the men's aisle.
But at SkirtCafe, we believe we can forge a new direction in the gender universe, rather than being held captive by outdated (and often ignorant) views. Gender is a social construct, and we can play an active role in defining (and re-defining) that construct. We are not passive recipients of others' ideas of who we are, but rather active agents who are fully capable of self-actualization and effecting change on the rest of society.
Not to beat a dead horse, but... there are plenty of cross-dresser websites out there, including even a whole genre of cross-dresser fiction! A quick read of this literature shows major differences, in philosophy and practice, between the cross-dresser crowd and the SkirtCafe crowd. I summarize some of the salient points here:
1. Cross-dressers have a female persona, which they "go into" when "dressed femme." They switch between a masculine personna and a "femme" personna as a way to access different "sides" of their personality. We have only one personna, and it's masculine. To the extent that we have different sides to our personalities, we try to integrate them into one being.
2. Cross-dressers on-line (and in other cross-dressing circles) almost universally use only their femme names. You'll be hard-pressed to find a cross-dresser on-line who will tell you his real name (or even any alternative masculine-sounding name) while admitting he's a cross-dresser, because he's not interested in relating to you with that "side" of his personality at that point. At SkirtCafe, we have only one name. Some of us use pseudonyms on-line, of course, but that's common in many on-line areas for other reasons.
3. Cross-dressers live with an underlying assumption that wearing "women's clothes" --- especially skirts --- has a transformative effect on the man who dons them, thereby feminizing him and helping bring out his femme personality. We believe the opposite --- that wearing "women's clothes" has a masculizing effect on the garment, thereby turning it into "this man's clothes." Put another way, we believe our Mojo is stronger than any perceived feminizing power of a skirt.
4. Cross-dressers for the most part keep their "dressing" secret. We generally do not try so hard to keep our skirt-wearing a secret, and many of us are seen in public, by our friends, wearing as skirt.
5. Cross-dressers do a lot of stuff to try to "pass" in public as a "real woman" --- breast forms, padding, hair removal, heavy makeup to cover stubble. They compete with each other on how much skin they can show and still "pass," posting photos to prove it. They work on "talking femme" and "walking femme." They discuss this stuff endlessly on their forums. We at SkirtCafe have no need for that, of course, because we're not performing as anyone other than our old (masculine) selves.
6. Cross-dressers, in their actions and philosophy, uphold out-dated rigid gender stereotypes. More often than not, they seek to emulate a feminine "ideal" that women threw out and moved on from 40 years ago. Thus, cross-dressers are retro, and do little to move things forward --- their actions do little to make people question their underlying assumptions on gender. We at SkirtCafe are on the cutting edge of gender and gender expression --- our actions get people to think and broaden their horizons.
7. Cross-dressing is about pretending to be someone else, about switching back and forth between the "real self" and the "other self." It is about this other self even more than it is about the clothing --- but the clothing is a means to that end.
But SkirtCafe is a fashion web site for men, and it's about (the cutting edge of) men's fashion.
OK, 'nuff said.
PS: Personally, I think cross-dressing is creepy. That's why we've forged new ways at Tom's Cafe, now SkirtCafe.
Bob,
I agree, although I like wearing skirts, I just want to be myself, a man wearing clothing that is comfortable and that I like. Women wear what they like so, if equality is part of life these days (as it should be), men should be able to wear what they like also.
Bryan
I agree, although I like wearing skirts, I just want to be myself, a man wearing clothing that is comfortable and that I like. Women wear what they like so, if equality is part of life these days (as it should be), men should be able to wear what they like also.
Bryan
Travel, transport and photography
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Departed Member
Well written piece, Bob! From a UK perspective, your description of a 'cross dresser' is spot on - brilliant!Bob wrote: Maybe there's a language issue going on here. .... I agree that cross-dressing and transvestism are the same thing.
PS: Personally, I think cross-dressing is creepy. That's why we've forged new ways at Tom's Cafe, now SkirtCafe.
Most folk I know tend to use the term 'Transvestite' only to describe someone who wears the opposite gender's apparel 24/7 - as a 'lifestyle' commitment. (Only someone 'going the whole way', physically, would be described/regarded as, 'Transgender').
Bob, good response, and description of what crossdresser is.
However, I think what the O.P. is trying to say is that if we freestylers are considered crossdressers, then women that wear pants, jeans, slacks, t-shirts, or other clothing originally made for men (yes tights are in there as well as miniskirts), are indeed crossdressers.
Perhaps if they were labled such the label would go away all together, or be applied to those people who dress AND act as the opposite gender.
However, I think what the O.P. is trying to say is that if we freestylers are considered crossdressers, then women that wear pants, jeans, slacks, t-shirts, or other clothing originally made for men (yes tights are in there as well as miniskirts), are indeed crossdressers.
Perhaps if they were labled such the label would go away all together, or be applied to those people who dress AND act as the opposite gender.
Isn't cross dressing the wearing of clothing from what the other sex normally wears?
Then men wearing pants are cross dressers. That is old hat. The name comes from a certain time, when people were wearing certain clothes. When people change their clothing, then the term cannot be used to describe the changed situation.
Freestylers is a very suit able word for anybody who chooses fashion that is different to that generally associated with that gender AT THAT POINT OF TIME, and irregardless what clothing is worn by men or women, the word and definition ( MY definintion ) will ALWAYS be correct.
Cross dressing seems to imply that women wear one certain type of clothing, easily defined, and men one type of clothing also. As this is not the case, has not been so for many years, it is an outdated term that cannot be used correctly in these times.
The times are a changing, this discussion proves it yet again. It is time for a redefinition of the words.
For this new century.
Some people do want to look exactly, mimic the oposite sex, would they be called cross-sexuals? This refers to crossing over, and to what is crossing over, so to me this would be the correct name to use. These people can even be virtually naked, as it is their appearance, NOT their clothing that they do their best to adapt to mimic the other sex. Cross-sexuals can wear T shirts with denim trousers. both male and female.
Peter v.
Then men wearing pants are cross dressers. That is old hat. The name comes from a certain time, when people were wearing certain clothes. When people change their clothing, then the term cannot be used to describe the changed situation.
Freestylers is a very suit able word for anybody who chooses fashion that is different to that generally associated with that gender AT THAT POINT OF TIME, and irregardless what clothing is worn by men or women, the word and definition ( MY definintion ) will ALWAYS be correct.
Cross dressing seems to imply that women wear one certain type of clothing, easily defined, and men one type of clothing also. As this is not the case, has not been so for many years, it is an outdated term that cannot be used correctly in these times.
The times are a changing, this discussion proves it yet again. It is time for a redefinition of the words.
For this new century.
Some people do want to look exactly, mimic the oposite sex, would they be called cross-sexuals? This refers to crossing over, and to what is crossing over, so to me this would be the correct name to use. These people can even be virtually naked, as it is their appearance, NOT their clothing that they do their best to adapt to mimic the other sex. Cross-sexuals can wear T shirts with denim trousers. both male and female.
Peter v.
A man is the same man in a pair of pants or a skirt. It is only the way people look at him that makes the difference.
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Since1982
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MUGs
I'm with Bob. There are indeed tons of "crossdresser and or transvestite" sites out in webland. I've never thought of this site, even way back when I first joined and Tom Manuel was the main guy, RIP., as anything except a site that promoted the wearing of MUGs...Male Unbifurcated Garments and other garments that are and or were in the area of men's wear in some century or another. From sarongs, sulus, tupenus, kain or any other encircling garment that wasn't split in the middle and formed trousers. A pair of denim shorts, cut and sewn to no longer be trousers but to form a skirt certainly doesn't look feminine because it no longer has 2 legs. Clothing worn by men in a feminine way and by men trying to pass as females is a different thing completely than a MUG wearing man.
A skirt, of suitable material, worn in a masculine way has become Menswear. Just as trousers, worn in a feminine way has become womenswear.
A skirt, of suitable material, worn in a masculine way has become Menswear. Just as trousers, worn in a feminine way has become womenswear.
I had to remove this signature as it was being used on Twitter. This is my OPINION, you NEEDN'T AGREE.
Story of Life, Perspire, Expire, Funeral Pyre!I've been skirted part time since 1972 and full time since 2005. http://skirts4men.myfreeforum.org/
Story of Life, Perspire, Expire, Funeral Pyre!I've been skirted part time since 1972 and full time since 2005. http://skirts4men.myfreeforum.org/
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Since1982
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I'm with Bob
I'm with Bob. There are indeed tons of "crossdresser and or transvestite" sites out in webland. I've never thought of this site, even way back when I first joined and Tom Manuel was the main guy, RIP., as anything except a site that promoted the wearing of MUGs...Male Unbifurcated Garments and other garments that are and or were in the area of men's wear in some century or another. From sarongs, sulus, tupenus, kain or any other encircling garment that wasn't split in the middle and formed trousers. A pair of denim shorts, cut and sewn to no longer be trousers but to form a skirt certainly doesn't look feminine because it no longer has 2 legs. Clothing worn by men in a feminine way and by men trying to pass as females is a different thing completely than a MUG wearing man.
:)
A skirt, of suitable material, worn in a masculine way has become Menswear. Just as trousers, worn in a feminine way has become womenswear.:)
:)A skirt, of suitable material, worn in a masculine way has become Menswear. Just as trousers, worn in a feminine way has become womenswear.
:)I had to remove this signature as it was being used on Twitter. This is my OPINION, you NEEDN'T AGREE.
Story of Life, Perspire, Expire, Funeral Pyre!I've been skirted part time since 1972 and full time since 2005. http://skirts4men.myfreeforum.org/
Story of Life, Perspire, Expire, Funeral Pyre!I've been skirted part time since 1972 and full time since 2005. http://skirts4men.myfreeforum.org/
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AMM
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One thing to keep in mind is that, like in the gay community, there is a crossdressing "culture" in which certain things are valued and others are not. What Bob describes is what I would call the dominant perspective at this time in this culture, which most participants will tend to adjust their attitudes and behavior to conform to, whether or not they realize they are doing it.Bob wrote:... A quick read of this literature shows major differences, in philosophy and practice, between the cross-dresser crowd and the SkirtCafe crowd....
Currently, what I would call a "transsexual" perspective is what is valued. As with all things cultural, I suspect this perspective has changed over time and will change in the future. It probably also depends upon what part of the world you are in.
Do we hafta stick with our "old (masculine) selves"? Can't we try on new (masculine) selves? (Oh, yeah:Bob wrote:5. ... We at SkirtCafe have no need for [learning to "walk femme" and "talk femme"], of course, because we're not performing as anyone other than our old (masculine) selves.
)I have to say no, it's not. Cross-dressing is an impersonation of the other gender through wearing of clothes normally meant for that gender. It involves not only clothes but taking on a name and mannerism perceived of being from the other gender.Isn't cross dressing the wearing of clothing from what the other sex normally wears?
That's why your average woman on the street in blue jeans is not cross dressing.
That is impossible to answer, since gender is a social construct and changes over time. But I think it's the wrong question. I don't think it's easy to draw a clear line between the guys here one might call "100% masculine" who wear skirts in a "masculine way," and the guys here who intentionally want to present as somewhat feminine. I don't think we need to make a distinction either. As described in the fashion press, sometimes women want to wear things perceived as more "masculine" or "androgynous," so why can't men do the same?Which glosses over the $64 question: what constitutes "[wearing] in a masculine way"?
The real distinction is that we're not cross-dressing and we're being ourselves; we're saying "it is OK for men to dress this way and to look this way, and we're still men."
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Since1982
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Since I said it..
Since I said it, I'm giving my definition of it. Wearing a skirt in a masculine way to me, means wearing it to appear both male and comfortable with my look. Feeling that I'm not presenting as trying to pass as anything other than a happy male comfortable in his maleness and at peace with what garments he wears. To me, this leaves a definite line between a male presenting as female or even presenting as somewhat female-ish and a male presenting only as a male at peace with his maleness no matter what clothing he wears. This person exudes the male attitude and look.
Some things I don't really think a male can wear without seeming to be passing over that line are, a bra, extremely frilly very colorful clothes, lots of makeup or fishnet stockings or extremely high heeled shoes or boots. In today's society, I don't believe wearing all or any of these items can be carried off in a masculine way. My opinion.
Some things I don't really think a male can wear without seeming to be passing over that line are, a bra, extremely frilly very colorful clothes, lots of makeup or fishnet stockings or extremely high heeled shoes or boots. In today's society, I don't believe wearing all or any of these items can be carried off in a masculine way. My opinion.
I had to remove this signature as it was being used on Twitter. This is my OPINION, you NEEDN'T AGREE.
Story of Life, Perspire, Expire, Funeral Pyre!I've been skirted part time since 1972 and full time since 2005. http://skirts4men.myfreeforum.org/
Story of Life, Perspire, Expire, Funeral Pyre!I've been skirted part time since 1972 and full time since 2005. http://skirts4men.myfreeforum.org/
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Departed Member
Re: Since I said it..
Before anyone tries to jump down your throat wailing about 'total fashion freedom', Skip, I agree with you - 100%!Since1982 wrote: Some things I don't really think a male can wear without seeming to be passing over that line are, a bra, extremely frilly very colorful clothes, lots of makeup or fishnet stockings or extremely high heeled shoes or boots. In today's society, I don't believe wearing all or any of these items can be carried off in a masculine way. My opinion.
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Departed Member
My assumption would be that there was an African origin........?