I am a collector of old books, and possess a number of old sets of how-to encyclopaedias, and old magazines from the 50's and late 40's. It always refreshes me to spend an hour browsing through them, not only for the practical data, but also for the illustrations and photographs.
It seems like up until 50 years ago, the whole female world wore lovely dresses and skirts. Page after page shows women doing everything imaginable, from officework to housework, to farmwork, to gardening, and cleaning, to cleaning eavestroughs all wearing dresses and skirts. It must have made the world a more interesting and beautiful place. I can only imagine darkly what sort of competitive monster has poisoned the minds of Modern Woman in her almost categorical rejection of the skirt or dress.
Just a lament I guess. It is a fully trousered society where I live. To see the rare skirt or dress is a very welcome occurence, it stays with me the whole day as some sort of omen that the world is still within the bounds of hope for recovery from this present chaos...
Skirts Skirts Everywhere!
I'll disagree, I think the way things are now is an improvement. With women previously forced to wear skirts, the skirt was in part a symbol of oppression. Many activities are more practical in pants, yet women were not allowed this practicality, having to always look pretty for the men in their lives. I've read plenty of accounts of women who felt it was pretty stupid that they had to wear tights and knee-length skirts to school in the middle of a snowstorm.
Not to mention the fact that as long as women are forced to wear skirts, men will never be allowed to do so.
Not to mention the fact that as long as women are forced to wear skirts, men will never be allowed to do so.
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AMM
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1. I'm someone who likes seeing women in skirts, but also sees the justice in not requiring it. But there is a middle ground.
In the days when there was a Certain Someone in my life, I would never complain when she dressed in trousers, but I would compliment her whenever she wore a skirt or dress I liked. I don't know if it was a simple case of cause and effect, but I notice that she wore skirts and dresses more and more as time went on.
As my mother used to say, "you catch more flies with honey than with vinegar." (Actually, that's not true about flies, but you get my point.)
2. Now that it is rare to see a woman in a skirt, I've had a Perfect Rejoinder ready in case a woman complains to me that I shouldn't wear a skirt because "only women wear skirts." You all, of course, know what that Perfect Rejoinder is. Unfortunately, most women say they like my skirts, and the one woman I can think of who didn't put it as "if you want to get a girlfriend, lose the skirt." So my Perfect Rejoinder is just mouldering away
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In the days when there was a Certain Someone in my life, I would never complain when she dressed in trousers, but I would compliment her whenever she wore a skirt or dress I liked. I don't know if it was a simple case of cause and effect, but I notice that she wore skirts and dresses more and more as time went on.
As my mother used to say, "you catch more flies with honey than with vinegar." (Actually, that's not true about flies, but you get my point.)
2. Now that it is rare to see a woman in a skirt, I've had a Perfect Rejoinder ready in case a woman complains to me that I shouldn't wear a skirt because "only women wear skirts." You all, of course, know what that Perfect Rejoinder is. Unfortunately, most women say they like my skirts, and the one woman I can think of who didn't put it as "if you want to get a girlfriend, lose the skirt." So my Perfect Rejoinder is just mouldering away
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I agree with Bob. Being forced to wear only one type of garment, whether it is appropriate for the task at hand or not, leads to resentment. Many of you on this forum feel that resetnment when you feel that society allows you only the choice of wearing trousers.
I know that I felt much more free when I really had the choice between skirts and trousers. I susoect that you will feel that freedom when there will be no question as to whether you chooses skirts or trousers.
For me, trousers are utlilitarian. They cover the bits that need covering and I don't mind of they get messy. I DO mind if my skirts get messy.
I know that I felt much more free when I really had the choice between skirts and trousers. I susoect that you will feel that freedom when there will be no question as to whether you chooses skirts or trousers.
For me, trousers are utlilitarian. They cover the bits that need covering and I don't mind of they get messy. I DO mind if my skirts get messy.
Skirts on stage
Our Choruses Christmas concert was this past Friday night. Of the 15 women in the group, 11 wore long black skirts, 4 wore long black trousers. Of the 6 men, all wore long black trousers including yours truly.
It was very nice to see all these skirted ladies, I was, however, jealous. I considered wearing mine, but I wasn't ready to announce it to the entire town -- yet. Besides, I want one of those nice inverted pleat skirts that someone pictured on this site recently, that had a nice masculine look to it and would fit the occasion!
It was very nice to see all these skirted ladies, I was, however, jealous. I considered wearing mine, but I wasn't ready to announce it to the entire town -- yet. Besides, I want one of those nice inverted pleat skirts that someone pictured on this site recently, that had a nice masculine look to it and would fit the occasion!
-John
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You see, ya can't please everyone, so ya got to please yourself (Rick Nelson "Garden Party")
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You see, ya can't please everyone, so ya got to please yourself (Rick Nelson "Garden Party")
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Departed Member
This is a concept that (oh dear!) probably has religious connotations, does it not? Or is it just a USA thing? There are certain religious factions (some of which emanated from the USA) here who have such 'rules'.Bob wrote:I'll disagree, I think the way things are now is an improvement. With women previously forced to wear skirts, the skirt was in part a symbol of oppression. Not to mention the fact that as long as women are forced to wear skirts, men will never be allowed to do so.
I too grew up in the era of (most) women/girls in skirts & dresses. It was also a time when lads wore shorts rather than long tr*users. It was a darn sight more 'uncomfortable' for those (us!) lads in inclement weather than the girls. They had the advantage of adding a slip (they called 'em petticoats, in those days!) or two, and adding stockings (or tights) in addition to knee socks, or wearing knee-high boots!
In the heat of summer, a loose dress beat (the same) shorts, buttoned-up shirt & tie, hands down. And didn't the lasses gloat! I honestly cannot recall a single girl (in those days) ever complaining about being 'forced' to wear skirts, etc. The opposite, yes, I've certainly had girls express sympathy with my 'plight', the all too visible (and non-visible!) effects of chafing!
Looks like we had different experiences on either side of the pond.
When I was small, the only boys who wore short trousers were little boys (toddlers). Once into public school, the boys wore long trousers. Ties were worn to school and church, but not for play.
In bad weather, boys had long dress coats, hats, gloves and galoshes. Girls had long dress coats, hats and gloves. If we opted (and if the school allowed) to wear trousers under our skirts, we were forced to change in the hallway.
In grade school, I had the choice of this skirt or that dress or a snowsuit for winter play (not allowed at school). If I played rough and tumble with the other children, I would be sternly scolded for getting my dresses and skirts dirty. Heaven help me if I ripped anything.
By high school, it became acceptable to wear trousers for play/sports, but never for school and certainly not for church.
Overall, dress was more formal and traditional than it is now, but the boys certainly had the edge on comfort.
When I was small, the only boys who wore short trousers were little boys (toddlers). Once into public school, the boys wore long trousers. Ties were worn to school and church, but not for play.
In bad weather, boys had long dress coats, hats, gloves and galoshes. Girls had long dress coats, hats and gloves. If we opted (and if the school allowed) to wear trousers under our skirts, we were forced to change in the hallway.
In grade school, I had the choice of this skirt or that dress or a snowsuit for winter play (not allowed at school). If I played rough and tumble with the other children, I would be sternly scolded for getting my dresses and skirts dirty. Heaven help me if I ripped anything.
By high school, it became acceptable to wear trousers for play/sports, but never for school and certainly not for church.
Overall, dress was more formal and traditional than it is now, but the boys certainly had the edge on comfort.
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HockeySkirt
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BrotherTailor
Interesting idea skirtdude - "Wear a Skirt to Work Week".
Leaving aesthetics aside, and speaking from the perspective of comfort and practicality only, I see no valid argument that can be made against skirts in my own life's work. Everything I do can be done wearing a dress or skirt. This goes beyond "sitting and sewing" which I do a lot of, and includes farmwork, driving tractors, working in the stables, fixing machinery, gardening, etc. To my ears, the "dresses and skirts are SO impractical" and "I couldn't POSSIBLY do that in a skirt" arguments are very shallow, and not borne out in actual practice. If the will is present it is all very easily done. Perhaps other occupations are different, and I respect that difference, however I'm not familiar with all those other lines of work.
Please note that I'm thinking of sturdy twill and other heavy durable types skirts here...leave the lace and frills for others. Hemlines can vary according to the season and job. One need only go back into ancient history books and see both men and women working skirted. The men might have only owned one garment, which they wore long on formal occasions and then tied up into the waistband for fieldwork basically like a short kilt.
I'm all for freedom of choice. I would never wish to force a woman to wear a dress or skirt. Please don't think that. I simply wish they would return the sentiment with regards to my own preference against trousers. From what I occasionally read on here, with wives and girlfriends "not accepting" or applying silent pressure to conform to accepted male standards of attire, I think women by and large need to do some critical examination of their outlook and the way they apply the rules that have enables them the freedom of choice. It must go both ways. To date, I have never seen a major emphasis in the press or other print and internet media where women themselves are clamouring for men's right to public freedom in what they wear in this regard. The few "niche" sites like this are a minority, a very small minority.
Perhaps I'm just a relic anyhow. I would welcome the chance to live as a full-time stay at home 1920's era homemaker here on the farm: growing all my own fruits and vegatables, canning, preserving, doing the washing, ironing, sewing, cleaning, preparing meals, baking fresh bread, churning my own butter, making my own cheese, keeping a flock of hens and tending my flower beds...keeping the old cookstove going, to see my family happy and healthy as a result of these labours of love. If only...I have no desire for a career, and haven't the brains or ability for it anyway. In my spare time I would rather "sit and sew" beside a cozy fire as the clock ticks away on the mantel... Does anyone else ever feel like that?
Leaving aesthetics aside, and speaking from the perspective of comfort and practicality only, I see no valid argument that can be made against skirts in my own life's work. Everything I do can be done wearing a dress or skirt. This goes beyond "sitting and sewing" which I do a lot of, and includes farmwork, driving tractors, working in the stables, fixing machinery, gardening, etc. To my ears, the "dresses and skirts are SO impractical" and "I couldn't POSSIBLY do that in a skirt" arguments are very shallow, and not borne out in actual practice. If the will is present it is all very easily done. Perhaps other occupations are different, and I respect that difference, however I'm not familiar with all those other lines of work.
Please note that I'm thinking of sturdy twill and other heavy durable types skirts here...leave the lace and frills for others. Hemlines can vary according to the season and job. One need only go back into ancient history books and see both men and women working skirted. The men might have only owned one garment, which they wore long on formal occasions and then tied up into the waistband for fieldwork basically like a short kilt.
I'm all for freedom of choice. I would never wish to force a woman to wear a dress or skirt. Please don't think that. I simply wish they would return the sentiment with regards to my own preference against trousers. From what I occasionally read on here, with wives and girlfriends "not accepting" or applying silent pressure to conform to accepted male standards of attire, I think women by and large need to do some critical examination of their outlook and the way they apply the rules that have enables them the freedom of choice. It must go both ways. To date, I have never seen a major emphasis in the press or other print and internet media where women themselves are clamouring for men's right to public freedom in what they wear in this regard. The few "niche" sites like this are a minority, a very small minority.
Perhaps I'm just a relic anyhow. I would welcome the chance to live as a full-time stay at home 1920's era homemaker here on the farm: growing all my own fruits and vegatables, canning, preserving, doing the washing, ironing, sewing, cleaning, preparing meals, baking fresh bread, churning my own butter, making my own cheese, keeping a flock of hens and tending my flower beds...keeping the old cookstove going, to see my family happy and healthy as a result of these labours of love. If only...I have no desire for a career, and haven't the brains or ability for it anyway. In my spare time I would rather "sit and sew" beside a cozy fire as the clock ticks away on the mantel... Does anyone else ever feel like that?
Skirts as oppression
I'd like to add a bit of historical musings to this discussion.
Durng WW2 in the US many, many young men went to war. Many women went to work to fill the jobs that had been vacated by the men.
Remember the posters of Rosie the Riveter?
My own Mom joined the United States Marine Corps. She had a degree in chemistry and worked as an environmental technician while in the Marines.
When the war was over, the men came home and demanded their jobs back. The women became unemployed.
Several other factors came into play. There was the fear of Communism, the baby boom, a major housing shortage, the great urban diaspora to the suburbs and the need to reintegrate veterans who had experienced other cultures back into American society.
The result was a wave of rampant conformity and narrowly defined roles for both men and women. To defy those roles could result in economic blacklist and economic ruin or jail (remember McCarthy-ism)
With regard to impact on women, a common saying was "A woman's place is in the home". A woman having a job outside of the home was frowned upon and marginalized by society.
For the women who had gotten educated and who were able to work and live independently, not being allowed to work was like a jail sentence.
Eventually, there was enough of a groundswell of discontent that the Woman's Movement was born. As part of this, the enforced wearing of skirts was discarded by women, in favor of trousers. I think in part, this was due to the fact that many women returning to work were seen as sexual toys by the men they worked for.
Obviously, there is a whole lot more to this than this short overview.
Basically, in the US, the convulsive social changes in the US during and after WW2 led to the rejection of skirts by women.
as a postscript: My Mom stayed home to raise my brother and me and resented the social pressures that kept her there. Once my brother and I were on our own, she went back to work and eventually retired from Princeton University
Durng WW2 in the US many, many young men went to war. Many women went to work to fill the jobs that had been vacated by the men.
Remember the posters of Rosie the Riveter?
My own Mom joined the United States Marine Corps. She had a degree in chemistry and worked as an environmental technician while in the Marines.
When the war was over, the men came home and demanded their jobs back. The women became unemployed.
Several other factors came into play. There was the fear of Communism, the baby boom, a major housing shortage, the great urban diaspora to the suburbs and the need to reintegrate veterans who had experienced other cultures back into American society.
The result was a wave of rampant conformity and narrowly defined roles for both men and women. To defy those roles could result in economic blacklist and economic ruin or jail (remember McCarthy-ism)
With regard to impact on women, a common saying was "A woman's place is in the home". A woman having a job outside of the home was frowned upon and marginalized by society.
For the women who had gotten educated and who were able to work and live independently, not being allowed to work was like a jail sentence.
Eventually, there was enough of a groundswell of discontent that the Woman's Movement was born. As part of this, the enforced wearing of skirts was discarded by women, in favor of trousers. I think in part, this was due to the fact that many women returning to work were seen as sexual toys by the men they worked for.
Obviously, there is a whole lot more to this than this short overview.
Basically, in the US, the convulsive social changes in the US during and after WW2 led to the rejection of skirts by women.
as a postscript: My Mom stayed home to raise my brother and me and resented the social pressures that kept her there. Once my brother and I were on our own, she went back to work and eventually retired from Princeton University
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BrotherTailor
(I really ought to be sewing - have two Christmas deadline projects waiting on the table)
Good input. I suppose I inhabit a somewhat different paradigm than most. It was only the Industrial Revolution that started this concept of working away from home as we know it. In my ideal world, BOTH man and wife stay home on the farm or in the family shop. Neither one is required to "go to work" formally. And this still exists where I live amongst some farm families where husband and wife are a team.
But steppping back, I think a lot of what drives a great many women (and men) to live the life they do, is the fact that they derive the greater part of their self-identity and self-worth from their work. The woman who had any sort of an eye to impressing others would not likely say, in response to the question "So where do you work?", "Oh, I'm a homemaker". No, they would emphasise their earned degrees, their appointments, their company, their latest business trip, etc. Men do this all the time as well.
My whole philosophy of life is built on the fact that my identity and worth are entirely independent of anything I could ever do or achieve. I couldn't care less if I have a cool career, or if others respect me. I've got nothing to prove, no image to groom, no ladder to climb. So I come at these situations from another perspective, and perhaps this confuses others. Sometimes I forget that the rest of the world sees matters in a different light.
So I find it difficult to understand the mindset that would feel jailed and resent being bumped out of the capitalistic ratrace...I've voluntarily opted out of the ratrace, my positive choice. I still work, but it is simply subsistence. I've got nowhere to "go", I'm at the bottom and prefer to stay there.
The fact that some men see women as toys is a sad commentary on the human spirit that refuses to submit to an objective moral authority outside of, and transcending, their own limited intellect. They shall answer for their conduct. Any elementary study of theology would point out that Eve, the first woman, was the pinnacle of all creation, the most unique and distinctively graced, and the last in the natural order of events. Such status is hers by right, and men must honour all women for that...Just as I honour and reverence the Second Eve, Our lady, the Blessed Virgin Mary, as the first in whom our Lord Jesus was pleased to dwell, a special vessel uniquely called and gifted as no other before or since; Eve was the last in order of natural creation, Mary is the first in the spiritual order, the living embodiment of all the fullness of holiness and purity promised to the Church. Women have influenced this world's course in far-reaching ways. Such a high view precludes any base or profane attitudes or behaviour. We are responsible for maintaining the honour and dignity of all women (and men for that matter). It is a task laid upon all men. Those who shirk and trespass shall regret it.
Sorry for the sermon...
Good input. I suppose I inhabit a somewhat different paradigm than most. It was only the Industrial Revolution that started this concept of working away from home as we know it. In my ideal world, BOTH man and wife stay home on the farm or in the family shop. Neither one is required to "go to work" formally. And this still exists where I live amongst some farm families where husband and wife are a team.
But steppping back, I think a lot of what drives a great many women (and men) to live the life they do, is the fact that they derive the greater part of their self-identity and self-worth from their work. The woman who had any sort of an eye to impressing others would not likely say, in response to the question "So where do you work?", "Oh, I'm a homemaker". No, they would emphasise their earned degrees, their appointments, their company, their latest business trip, etc. Men do this all the time as well.
My whole philosophy of life is built on the fact that my identity and worth are entirely independent of anything I could ever do or achieve. I couldn't care less if I have a cool career, or if others respect me. I've got nothing to prove, no image to groom, no ladder to climb. So I come at these situations from another perspective, and perhaps this confuses others. Sometimes I forget that the rest of the world sees matters in a different light.
So I find it difficult to understand the mindset that would feel jailed and resent being bumped out of the capitalistic ratrace...I've voluntarily opted out of the ratrace, my positive choice. I still work, but it is simply subsistence. I've got nowhere to "go", I'm at the bottom and prefer to stay there.
The fact that some men see women as toys is a sad commentary on the human spirit that refuses to submit to an objective moral authority outside of, and transcending, their own limited intellect. They shall answer for their conduct. Any elementary study of theology would point out that Eve, the first woman, was the pinnacle of all creation, the most unique and distinctively graced, and the last in the natural order of events. Such status is hers by right, and men must honour all women for that...Just as I honour and reverence the Second Eve, Our lady, the Blessed Virgin Mary, as the first in whom our Lord Jesus was pleased to dwell, a special vessel uniquely called and gifted as no other before or since; Eve was the last in order of natural creation, Mary is the first in the spiritual order, the living embodiment of all the fullness of holiness and purity promised to the Church. Women have influenced this world's course in far-reaching ways. Such a high view precludes any base or profane attitudes or behaviour. We are responsible for maintaining the honour and dignity of all women (and men for that matter). It is a task laid upon all men. Those who shirk and trespass shall regret it.
Sorry for the sermon...
Brother Tailor Yes there is just such another relic here in Australia. Don't forget to add the regular trimming of the Aladdin lamps and keep an eye on them in case they flare up and soot up the mantle! (Been there, done that) I couldn't think of a more calm and, yes, fulfilling way to live. Until my SO came into my life, I even ironed using a flatiron on the woodstove and didn't think it any hardship- she did- we now uae a modern gee whiz iron that beeps at you if it stays still for too long-slave driver machine. 
As to the thread, It is, as others have said, a matter of free will. There should be no coercion to either wear a skirted or bifurcated lower garment. BTW a few days ago, I was in my long dark grey cargo skirt and got the dirtiest look from two similarly skirted women coming the other way--They were Exclusive Brethren- enough said!
As to the thread, It is, as others have said, a matter of free will. There should be no coercion to either wear a skirted or bifurcated lower garment. BTW a few days ago, I was in my long dark grey cargo skirt and got the dirtiest look from two similarly skirted women coming the other way--They were Exclusive Brethren- enough said!
Brother Tailor,
I think you inhabit a unique situation that most of us do not have.
Still, imagine if you will, that as a child you were allowed to follow a calling that appealed to you. Then imagine that you were not allowed to follow that calling and were sent to do other work not of your choosing.
Would that be OK with you? Would it be OK if your freedom of choice was taken away and regulated?
Is it not a precept that men in skirts is all about: to have the freedom to choose their fashion expression in a world not so idyllic as your own?
I think you inhabit a unique situation that most of us do not have.
Still, imagine if you will, that as a child you were allowed to follow a calling that appealed to you. Then imagine that you were not allowed to follow that calling and were sent to do other work not of your choosing.
Would that be OK with you? Would it be OK if your freedom of choice was taken away and regulated?
Is it not a precept that men in skirts is all about: to have the freedom to choose their fashion expression in a world not so idyllic as your own?