A thought I've been mulling over re: men/women pants/skirts.

[BrotherTailor]

I hope this is not out to lunch - ladies please correct me if I am.

It has been my observation in real life and from browsing many internet sites pertaining to fashion (I'm working on a diploma in dressmaking/tailoring and have a small sewing service) trying to stay somewhat abreast of trends and tastes, that women, on average, have come to regard the stereotypical "blue jean" as basic "foundation wear" or "shapewear". I hope that in putting this idea forth it might bring forth suggestions as to why women are abandoning skirts and dresses in favour of pants, and men, at least the men on skirtcafe, are embracing looser skirt type clothing as freeing and beautiful/handsome...

Let me explain. Men for the most part are forced to wear pants and hence choose comfortable and loose styles/sizes...I know very very few men who enjoy very binding jeans. Women, (and I get this from reading blogs and fashion "Dear Abby" type sites) complain bitterly about how hard it is to find jeans that "fit". When one examines their claims further, it comes down to the fact that a certain style or brand of jean does not shape their lower bodies in a way that suits them, hence "it doesn't fit". Although just a size larger would technically "fit" them very well.

The average woman would scoff at the idea of wearing a constricting garment such as a corset as everyday wear to improve their posture and overall silhouette, yet ninety percent of the ladies I meet under 60 years of age daily wear jeans with absolutely no "ease" (ease being defined as the "spare room" commonly allowed in all clothing for movement/comfort/coolness etc). Obviously there is a reason why women prefer this level of shaping ability in their clothing even if it makes it difficult to find a "size that suits", whereas men can just pick up a peg size and wear it, simple. The tightness of many women's jeans makes me wonder how they put them on at times...at least a corset completely opens up and then is laced slowly closed...one need not squeeze in.

So is this simply vanity on the part of women in striving to achieve that desired "shape" below the waist...much like women of the previous century strove to achieve a desired "shape" above the waist? Or is there some other force at work that I've totally not picked up on? A loose, full dress or skirt is certainly not going to give any sort of support or shaping to the wearer, they are by nature swingy and loose. I think men as a whole are less conscious of the details of the image they put forth in their daily dress (I'm speaking very generally here), while women might tend to obsess and worry over some rather insignificant "bit" that seems important to them. I know for a long time I could dress and do a quick look in the mirror and totally miss the fact that I was wearing mismatched clothing or that my buttons were done up crooked or my collar was folded up at the back etc.

There is a sense in which wearing a skirt is "simplifying". Not only is the garment less complex, it is easier to put on, provides more freedom and movement, allows air to circulate, etc...all round better. And of course, men like simple things... I could whip up a nice unlined skirt in about three or four hours on the sewing machine, a pair of trousers with placket, zipper, and pockets, cuffed hems etc would take me two days and three fittings.

So I guess what I'm getting at is that men prefer looser clothing, simplicity, freedom, and comfort, women focus more on body image, shaping ability, what flatters etc. Is this perhaps why the trend for women away from dresses and skirts is increasing, and the trend for men is more toward looser clothing below the waist, seen in some places as simply baggy/saggy pants, and of course on here in choosing skirts/kilts? In other words: men don't care what their body looks like to the same extent as women, hence are happy to hide it under a skirt/kilt? I'm still wondering why it is that women in general seem bound to wear jeans no matter what, spending almost twice as much for a pair as men do, and then lamenting the fact that they "don't fit" correctly. As a person who is hoping to develop a clientele as a dressmaker (also making skirts/men's/children's wear) it would be good for me to have some sort of understanding as to what has turned women OFF of dresses/skirts and seek ways to address those concerns if possible. I guess I want to understand how women make clothing choices and purchasing decisions so they'll buy my stuff...

Ladies, any thoughts? Men, what about it?

[sapphire]

Brother Tailor,
In the beginning, I wore jeans because as a child I had been forbidden to do so. (Guess what, my family was Presbyterian)

Actually, I wore skirts for work and for dress up. Jeans, pants, etc were for sports, cleaning and gardening and in cold weather. Basically, pants were prettty disposable and cheaper than the suits and dresses that I wore for "good" occasions. Pants have another bonus, they are protection from infection for sensitive nether regions.

When I became disabled, I really didn't have anywhere to go and no reason to mess up my good clothes.

Now, I always had a problem with the fit of jeans. Specifically, my problem is that they are not adequately cut to accomodate a woman's waist and hips. Women's jeans have historically been cut for "Slab sided" models. I'm a curvy girl and always have been. When I wore jeans the waistband gapped out in the back by a good six inches. The proportions were just wrong. If I went a size up, that gap in the rear would grow and I'd have a veritable funnel down my backside.

But for a time, I did like jeans. They were a blank canvas up which I could embroider, applique or otherwise embellish. For some reason, I didn't feel like doing that sort of experimentation on other clothing (perhaps because at the time, jeans were cheap)

One thing that I've pondered for a long time is why the garment of choice for women has been skirts and pants for men. Women have that delicate area that needs to be protected from infection and men must be uncomfortable having their bits bound up.

[BrotherTailor]

Thanks Sapphire.

The era of religion playing a role in clothing styles for the majority of us is over I think. Relegated to a few small sectors and the Muslim world. Thank goodness...

You bring up an interesting observation I've made. If one takes a general survey of mature women (and men too) in the Northern/Western hemisphere, they would find a severe shortage of "slab sided" individuals. We, for the most part, are more generously proportioned, and very few of the runway model styles look remotely good on the average Joe or Jane, who as you say has a more natural curvy figure. t is just a fact of life...we are heavier than formerly, and we may as well adjust our clothing styles to reflect reality - society would be a more pleasant place I think. The woman who is angrily mourning having to pitch out her old jeans would be far wiser to simply toss them and wear a full flowing skirt that disguises and eliminates all the stuff that jeans expose mercilessly.

My stilt-like legs magically disappear when I'm wearing a skirt or kilt, the length is broken up and all one knows about is from the kneecap down to my shoes...presto! I have worked with mature figured women who wore both slacks and dresses/skirts in the past, and it was obvious to my eyes (subject to error of course) that they presented much slimmer and unified in a dress/skirt than slacks and blouse or what have you. My decision if I were a woman would be to go with what looks the best: if I looked better in a dress or skirt then I'd chuck the slacks..no sacred cows.

I hope to be able to discuss these sorts of fitting issues and style problems in the course of my work, and so this is why I seem to be hammering away at the subject. I see women as the primary clients I will serve, and want to be helpful and sensitive, and pro-active in offering advice, solutions etc. anyhow, gotta go for now.

[sapphire]

Well, I certainly hope that you and I can discuss these design issues and that others will contribute.

I agree that the runway is the worst place to look to find wearable clothes.

I find that some looks that work well on somewhat larger women are not necessarily wide, flowing clothes, but clothes that fit nicely with the body and are not too short or long (except for evening wear)

Take a look at the styling of Queen Latifah. She's very curvy but always looks great.

But this is a men's forum. There are certain styles and fits that will work better on some men than on others.

[crfriend]

The era of religion playing a role in clothing styles for the majority of us is over I think. Relegated to a few small sectors and the Muslim world. Thank goodness...

I'm not sure I'd dismiss it quite as out-of-hand as that. Here in the US we've got some right nasty factions that make even rabid Muslims look tame. Making matters worse, they have extensive power at the moment. But, in these cases, it's not a matter about faith or religion it's a matter about power and control -- and those two, in my mind, are fundamentally incompatible.

The woman who is angrily mourning having to pitch out her old jeans would be far wiser to simply toss them and wear a full flowing skirt that disguises and eliminates all the stuff that jeans expose mercilessly.

Sometimes I suspect that there's a bit of a disconnect when it comes to matters like this; people tend to get wedded to ideas and don't want to discard them. Most women today, at least those that are under fifty, grew up in dungarees -- the garment is what's familiar to them, and it's a garment that has been "with them" for good times and bad. There's also the notion of vanity; most folks, but women especially, are extremely sensitive to the normal "broadening with age" (Gravity, I've heard it said, is nobody's friend.) and would, most likely, try to ignore or disguise the fact that they're getting a "little soft around the middle". What's tragic, is that some of these folks ram themselves into things that are too small and wind up looking like overstuffed sausages.

My stilt-like legs magically disappear when I'm wearing a skirt or kilt, the length is broken up and all one knows about is from the kneecap down to my shoes...presto!

The skirted "look" can be a great concealer -- but it can also bring out a multitude of flaws. One must be careful with what style one selects. This does not mean that the heavier-set amongst us need to go around wearing tents -- that's ridiculous -- but it takes more skill than just stuffing one's self into jeans and slouching out the door.

As far as the notion of what's turned women off to skirted garments, I think we should reflect back when women really didn't have the choice -- trousers were "forbidden fruit" -- and once that choice opened up they jumped on it and never looked back. Perhaps that's an oversimplification, but it may begin to loosen things up for discourse a bit; compulsion to do anything/wear anything specific is frequently a recipe for problems down the road when the compulsion is removed (like late teens and 20-somethings with alcohol).

[BrotherTailor]

Good feedback!

There are certainly pockets of religious groups that legislate on dress, we've got Mennonites near here and a few UPC. But as a percentage of the total population, I'd say it is no longer an influence as it was 100 years ago. I'd rather stay away from the religion aspect...I left a church after 30 years because of such prejudices on this and other matters. anyhow.

I totally agree with you crfriend that no plus size clothing needs to look like a tent. That is what I hope to be proactive on as I sew for women and men with special requirements, to make them look good in clothes that flatter their good points while down playing those parts they want to disguise. There are certain classic styles that simply yell "Slim!" even if the person is not. there are some types of skirts/dresses and fabrics that are psychologically slimming in the mind of those who see them. I often admire older women who are definitely not stick-like and yet still carry themselves with grace and ease, usually in softer tones, mixing neutrals and embellishment/stripes to create a visual silhouette...to me that is attractive.

This is a men's forum. If you want to discontinue the thread that is fine. I do feel that heavy men face a lot of the same challenges in making fashion choices as their female counterparts. Really the choices are less for men...one simply must buy another version of what they're wearing now, just in a larger size. Women have the choice of going for skirts etc that really do smooth out the profile overall. Perhaps the day will come when men too have the freedom to simply slip on a tunic and head off to work...or a toga I'm not advocating poor health choices or sedentary lifestyles, just wanting to be realistic and trying to nail down why even fairly obese women cling to jeans that are very unflattering. Perhaps crfriend is right, it is simply being "tied in" to a mindset that fails to look outside the box formed in childhood/youth that rejected the "establishment" norms of garb.

Could it be that some women are really not as free with regards to fashion as we might think if they are bound to uphold some cherished ideal of rebellion and having now what you weren't permitted then? To my mind it is not essentially about pants or skirts, but what looks good...and each person having the freedom to choose impartially those garments that make them look and feel good...the world would be a happier place. I know that for myself, being rather "drainpipe" in configuration other than broad shoulders, I simply need to slip on a full petticoat and a skirt with a snug sweater and I have instant curves..almost shockingly female if I look in the mirror and have my head out of view. This drastic transformation can be made to work the other way as well, and we all know the victorian craze for narrow waists and bell-like hoop skirts; it was a straight forward matter for a heavy woman to minimise her waist, just adjust the size of her skirt by adding petticoats or whatnot to balance it out. For a heavy man, the challenge is still to minimise the "spread" and somehow pull off a look that works and is practical. I think Monarchs, kings, of past eras figured this out...wear a richly embroidered floor length robe and simply dazzle those around you with colour and jewels fur trimmed stoles and capes...mmmm.

[Emerald Witch]

Women complain bitterly about how hard it is to find jeans that "fit".... Although just a size larger would technically "fit" them very well.

In my experience, that is not the case. Good fit is not achieved by wearing clothes that sag anywhere. They've got to be just the RIGHT amount of ease EVERYWHERE. And in well-fitting jeans, the right amount of ease is just about skin-tight. The problem comes because women's bodies are all shaped so differently. Some have hips shaped like violins. Some have flat bottoms. Some have large thighs. Some have protruding stomachs. Some are short-waisted. Some are the opposite of all these things. And yet the jeans-making companies are expected to be able to fit these mutitudes of women with usually non-stretchy fabric EXACTLY, without leaving any gaping waistbands, drooping sides, wrinkly butts, or embarrassing crotches. You want something that skims closely without digging in, but that's nearly impossible to find short of hiring your own private tailor. So women bemoan the fact that finding the right fit for their particular shape of body is difficult, and just adding a bigger size isn't going to fix the problem.

As a person who is hoping to develop a clientele as a dressmaker (also making skirts/men's/children's wear) it would be good for me to have some sort of understanding as to what has turned women OFF of dresses/skirts and seek ways to address those concerns if possible.

Speaking only for myself, I'd say the reason dresses are such a pain is because they take so much more CARE than jeans do. You just throw a pair of jeans on, and you go. You don't worry how you look because you know you look "fine". You're wearing the uniform of the day, and nobody is going to look twice at you. Throw on any old shoes, it doesn't matter. Do your hair, don't do your hair, wear makeup if you feel like it, play it up, play it down, it's all up to you. Nobody notices. They notice ME, not my jeans.

A DRESS, on the other hand (or skirt, same thing) becomes something that attracts attention. I invariably get noticed when I wear a dress. People often compliment me and tell me how "dressed up" I look (even if it's just a blue denim skirt). I have to worry what shoes I'm wearing if I'm going to put on a skirt. I have to worry whether I've shaved my legs, or if I'm going to put on hose. I feel the pressure (since I'm so "dressed up" that I'd darn well BETTER put on makeup and all the other layers, even if I'd really rather take it easy and slob around a bit. Nope. Can't do it in a skirt. Skirt = DRESSED UP.

Then there's the care OF the skirt. Most of my skirts AREN'T made of denim. So I worry how to wash them. I don't know about you, but I hate laundry. Jeans are the easiest thing in the world to wash. Don't have to think about them at all. Indestructable! Throw them in, add soap, never worry about temperature or anything. Ignore them in the dryer for three days... Who cares? They're JEANS! They can take it! But a dress or a skirt? YIKES! I dunno... If I'm not careful it might wrinkle, or I might tear it, or I might get a stain... or maybe if it's too full I might rip out a hem, or what if I have to IRON that sucker!!! (EWWWW! Horrible thought!)

So it's not about how it feels, or even how it looks (for me). Really more than anything for ME, it comes down to laundry. Hey, I'm a working mother of two, trying to go to school, handle housework, deal with life in general -- I DON'T NEED THE HASSLE, RIGHT?

But I admit that I do love skirts. Once I got past my fears of wearing them, and my worries of how hard they would be to wash, and realized how WONDERFUL it felt to have gentlemen open doors for me and smile at me and wink at me, and how swishy and elegant they felt... Once I started realizing that I actually LIKED feeling my shaved legs rubbing against one another and I didn't have to wear hose if I didn't want to... Once I realized that pantyhose didn't have to be worn WITH panties (thanks whoever on this board mentioned that, because I honestly never tried that before, and gosh it DOES make a difference!)... Well I am now ambi-garmented. I can wear what I like, and like either one!

[BrotherTailor]

Emerald,

You make an excellent point. For skirts and dresses to ever be popular once more they absolutely MUST be made of "wash and wear" material. I have apready made a special point in my own work to never make a garment for daily wear that requires anything other than standard machine wash and dry. If one whisks it from the dryer onto a hanger even ironing is only touchup. I don't mind ironing (actually my denim overalls are the bloodiest wrinkliest fabric ever woven and I cannot stand wrinkly clothes, so iron them just to go to the stable)

No one has time to fuss with laundry, no one wants to rack up a huge drycleaning bill. The clothes I make must be: A- tough and able to withstand every day wear and tear B-they must be wash and wear fabrics C- they've gotta look good on you. If I make a garment in a wool that requires drycleaning it must be in a weave and colour that will hide dirt and retain its shape through many wearings without bagging and looking like a sack. I'm not a big lace and frills lover, and so the delicate frou frou stuff that needs handwashing is off my list personally. I'll put lace trim on your gown, but don't expect me to come and do your laundry

I appreciate your experiences re: fitting jeans. I guess I'm a disliker of tight pants, and so as long as the waistband fits my waist I don;t care about the rest, as men's jeans always have alot of room. There's nothing there to fit anyway Beanpole...

The idea that an off the rack garment will fit is pretty recent...A byproduct of Sears Roebuck and the Timothy Eaton Co. mail order era. Prior to that dressmakers and tailors were like corner gas stations are today. Perhaps it is simply our disposable income and throwaway mentality that encourages us to treat clothing so lightly, instead of making it an investment that will last us for many years and handed down to another generation. Clothing that lasts like that requires care and attention that slave wage children in China are not likely to provide.

I'll shut up now...

[Peter v]

Hallo Brother tailor,

"Perhaps it is simply our disposable income and throwaway mentality that encourages us to treat clothing so lightly, instead of making it an investment that will last us for many years and handed down to another generation. Clothing that lasts like that requires care and attention that slave wage children in China are not likely to provide. "

It is possible that men will probably wear skirts like they do their jeans, not looking at fashion, and wearing them to the dislike of the wife until they drop off. Instead of just one skirt, a replacement for your standard EVERY day jeans or whatever dull pants, skirt wearing can be totally different, and very enlightening, when you wear all soorts of skirts.

Only not following any fashion trends can lead to wearing your clothes until they are completely finished. This can still be done for jeans, as they are in fashion every year as general everyday pants. Possibly some mens skirts will be so neutral that they are applicable to be worn every year. As I like to be able to pay for my clothes, they will most often have to come from low wage countrys. But I would rather pay a bit more for locally made quality clothes, if at least the fashion didn't change every year as it does now. Clothing and fashion is pretty intricate, once you start looking into it.

Peter v.

[BrotherTailor]

There is a sense in which fashion is always changing, however, if you really sit down and try to "chart" out fashion trends and so on, you will see that year after year year in and year out in all seasons, certain styles that I prefer to call "classic" styles of garments never go out of style, there may be slight periodic variations, but the basic garment style lasts, and eventually returns to the baseline. I have always worn outdated clothes since my mom went shopping at the Second Time Around charity shop, and myself at Value Village. I don't care about what is "hot" on the racks, I care about what looks good.

I too lament the fact that locally made clothes are non existent around here. everything is from southeast Asia... Solution? Make your own...or have me make them Variety is good, but I think that once you settle on a style that flatters you, it is best to work within that "envelope" and play around with colours/patterns/accessories, rather than presenting a radically new "you" every day. However do as you like! Its a free world...for now.