Had skirts for men always been - what then?

[imadube]

This is a strange thought I admit but -
What if men had continued to wear skirts up through today, how many people would not have chosen the Homosexual or Transvestite lifestyles?
Where I formed this question from?
The story is this:
As a Pre-teen I found some of my sisters old dress' and skirts. I (at the time knew I was different then most) set out to try some on. I really liked the feel and look. Now this being the mid 70's, there was no way I would venture out in any of these and also - I had no clue how the wear such things "as a boy".
Doing this act of investigation it sparked some cofusion in me. "Was I gay?" "What is wrong with me?"
I then set out to see what I could discover. It wasn't long - one day at school - until I knew I was in no way gay. I didn't try to pick up some guy or nothing, I just quickly knew I didn't want that. But I still wanted to wear these garments. So now, am I then suppose to be a girl? During this time you never seen or heard about sex change operations but is that what I needed? NO.... I quickly figured out that IF I did become or was a girl I would be a Lesbian! I really like the female gender as partners. I then decided I was just strange and to keep this all to myself.
During my life since there of been times that I found ways to wear skirted things, mostly shower wraps. However in the life I had all else was wierd. It is now that I have a wife that rather likes the idea and thinks it's fine. A bit jealous, as I have a better figure then her right now.
Now what if I had not been so investigative would I had "given in" to what could have been a lifestyle change? In no way am I thinking I need to. I am totally heteralsexual I know this without doubt. However, how many people could have gone through the proccess I did, but gave in to the lifestyle change because sociaty says those feelings make you that way?

[trainman]

You do raise an interesting point.

But maybe the question should be, "What if Freedom of Expression was always there?"

Essentially what you are referring to is not just the aspect of skirts, but of freedom to display yourself to the world without any form of stereotype, or expectations of how your supposed to behave. For instance, I am not your typical male. Not because I wear skirts, but because I'm willing to allow myself to be who I am. I cry at movies, I love shopping, I'm more than willing to listen to people, and help them with problems. At the same time I'm very mechanical of mind, and have an excellent sense of direction (I've only ever been "lost" once, and that was due to circumstances beyond my control). What I find is my biggest hurdle is being able to be who I am. I'm slowly getting there, but it is this challenge that many people face, and these are what drives many to things like GRS, and homosexuality (although the latter I doubt, I admit I am quite bisexual, and always have been).

[SkirtDude]

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[imadube]

I understand that homosexuallity has been around since forever, I do not perceive to think or say that skirting and that are combined. It is though a deep social affect on the mind that if one feels less then Manly then they must be homosexual. In that affect, wouldn't the freedom to dress for comfort affect the person so deeply as to fill the need in some manner. Would it be possible that the affect on the mind actually relieve sociaty of many "disorders" - not that I feel any of this is a disorder, I only use that as a current social discription for lack of other discription.

[imadube]

Some how my post got in here twice and no way to remove the second on I decided to edit it to this. Sorry do not know how it loaded twice.

[crfriend]

What if men had continued to wear skirts up through today, how many people would not have chosen the Homosexual or Transvestite lifestyles?

The currently prevailling wisdom is that homosexuality is not a "choice". So speculation of fashion mores "driving the numbers" of homosexuality is probably pushing things a bit.

As a Pre-teen I found some of my sisters old dress' and skirts. I (at the time knew I was different then most) set out to try some on. I really liked the feel and look.

This might be what one could term "phase one" of the move into male skirt-wearing. As a pre-teen, it's got everything to do with curiosity -- curiosity about how something feels (children are amazingly tactile creatures). This is perfectly innocent and understandable behaviour; where it gets warped is that because of social mores, it's also a forbidden behaviour (for boys). This, of course, adds a bit of a "zing" to it, makes the child feel somewhat "naughty" and inspires the need to keep it hidden, and that's where things start going bad. Girls are subjected to none of this; boys get the raw end of the deal.

"Phase two" tends to happen in adolescence and has a decidedly sexual twinge to it -- it's still not homosexual in any way for the vast majority of teens, but teens (being what they are) are particularly vicious when it comes to any type of non-conformity. Skirt-wearing is still "forbidden territory" but has the added problems in the teen years of picking up a fear of being a "pervert" and being on the receiving end of some nasty abuse. "Phase two" is where out-and-out transvestitism probably starts out for guys -- perfectly straight normal guys -- and they are driven even farther into the shadows (or closet, depending on your point of view). Note that all the while, the girls have been allowed to "get away" with anything they want costume-wise.

"Was I gay?" "What is wrong with me?" [...] I then decided I was just strange and to keep this all to myself.

There's societal pressure at work -- in spades. Just because what you'd experimented with was slightly "unorthodox" by commonly-held standards you internalised it and made it your problem. This is usually where the story ends for guys unless they go the "transvestite route" (which can be devastating for things like careers and marriages) and keep it secret by trying to pass. It is not the activity so much that's the cause of the problems, it's the need for secrecy and all the issues that causes.

During my life since there of been times that I found ways to wear skirted things, mostly shower wraps.

And here is what we might term "Phase three" in the journey, and it's usually only reached in mid-life when one is very confident in who he is, where he stands with things, and how he interacts with those around him. It's an acceptance that skirt-wearing is "odd" by normal standards, but that it injures precisely no-one and is perfectly harmless to society as a whole. It is an understanding that comes from confidence and, in that, power. It is a statement that, "By my actions, I am willing to try and change the world around me and make it a better place." Not many men get to that point in their lives, but those that do should be very proud of it!

It is now that I have a wife that rather likes the idea and thinks it's fine. A bit jealous, as I have a better figure then her right now.

Having a supporting figure is immense in this regard. From my experience, men seem to be a relatively insecure lot (needlessly), and there's a lot of pressure on them that keeps them insecure and unwilling to "push the envelope" (even in something as fundamentally harmless as "what shall I cover my lower half with today?"). There's pushback (or perceived pushback) from all angles -- there are no positive role-models in the media, "men's men" are relentlessly shoved into one tiny fashion box, there can be worries of "what happens if my boss (or a prospective boss) finds out?", and there will be the good-natured ribbing that one will get from one's friends at the outset (this, from personal experience, decays with time). "Phase three", in this regard, being driven from a position of personal power (what some might term the core of "masculinity") can finally release all the pent-up baggage of years of "hiding". It's very invigorating.

[Departed Member]

Interesting thread! Had skirts been just as 'acceptable' for boys/men (don't forget some of us are old enough to have worn dresses 'til around two years of age!), then I would have always worn skirts - plain and simple. My early experiences with the dreaded tr*user (hypothetically assuming they were an equal option), would have rendered them 'banished' - certainly being 'forced' to wear them as a 'societal requirement', has left me with permanent damage to the nether regions.

In the circumstances of the day, I was always perplexed why girls could wear virtually what they wished, and were obviously far more relaxed and comfortable as a result. It wasn't a case of being jealous, just, "Well? Why can't I?". Comments from the Clinic Nurse to my mother to the effect, "If only he wore skirts, I'm sure x....x would clear up in no time!" wasn't particularly helpful! My mother wouldn't have minded, I'm sure, but my Dad! 50,000 feet!

I was totally unaware of homosexuality as a youngster - it never occured to me. When, as a teenager, I observed a lad attempting to 'fiddle' with a younger boy, it struck me as 'un-natural'. I've only ever been inquisitive as to, "Why?" Same as with Lesbians. Being an life-long "People Watcher" (& birds, locos, aircraft, etc., etc.!), over the years, I've formed opinions based primarily on observation and conversation. Certain patterns have evolved, especially where the particular religion of most of the folk involved must have played a significant role in their chosen 'lifestyle'. At no stage, have I ever associated (or the gents, I know personally) homosexuality with 'skirt-wearing' - very much the opposite, in fact. Drag acts are just that, acts, parodying women as in the case of the "Dame" application.

As for the hypothetical case of, "What would I be, if I woke up one day as a girl!", then, as someone else has mentioned already, I would immediately opt for the Lesbian 'lifestyle' - nothing to do with wearing skirts, per se, although with re-designed nether regions, no doubt tr*users would be somewhat less injurious to health (although I would nowadays doubt that, bearing in mind what my female GP and Urologist say.........).

[imadube]

crfriend makes a good break down of events.
To reach what we could call Phase Four - Public Wear (at least for me) is to be able to afford those garments not labeled "Ladies". To be able to show a tag labeled Mens could clearly ease the wears mind in being public with the garments.
As far as phase three the greatest acceptance I could recieve is my kids, now 12 and 9, a couple years ago my wife (not thier mother) helped me with showing them how skirts are good for guys as well and I wasn't strange. They took to it like ducks to water.

[Dennis A Lederl]

Dear imadude:
What you have desrcribed in your childhood a lot of other men, cluding myself, have gone through. With the addition, in my case, that my mother actually wanted me to be a girl. So for almost five years I was raised as if I were a girl or going to become one.
I also went my entire life trying out the various TV, TS, TG to see if I could get comfortable with an impersonation image. I think that's what you are really refering too. If we can "pass" as women then we can wear what we want, just like women do today.
The trouble with that is most men can't pass. We are usually to big, but even the smaller men have the wrong shape to their bodies and the overall body structure.
What you seem to be longing for is traditional or maybe even old fashioned women style of clothing adapted for men.
I have felt all my life that those style of clothing, dresses and skirts, with the usual paraphenalia that go with it, slips, purse, nylons, etc. wshould be made to fit men's bodies too.
A dress is actually more comfortable then a skirt or kilt to wear. It is fitted around your waist and shoulders and can hang down without any support to hold it up, like belts or suspenders. Of course a dress for men would have to be called a tunic and not a dress, just like, to some extent, a kilt is a skirt for men.
Back in tthe early 1970's women began having a deadly problem, called toxic shock syndrome, they would go into a coma and dies. The root cause was the tampons being worn by women then almost to the exculsion of sanitary pads. The National Institute of Health issued a finding that tampons blocked up the free flow of menatrual fluid (it's not blood) out of a woman's body, leaving some bad fluid behind which could create germs that caused the shock. Them same report also showed that women wearing nylon underpants, in the form of briefs had a greater chance (nearly epidemic in nature) of getting more vaginal infections.
Both these were modern problems since women didn't begin to wear underpants until the 20th century. Even the first underpants worn by women had spilt crotches which allowed more air circulation under their skirts, dresses and petticoats. There was a small mention that men wearing kilts and in the scottish tradition, no underwear, were free from various diseases of the male groin area, such as the well known crotch rot that has plagued athletes off and on.
So both genders would be healthier wearing skirted garments and going "cammando" as some Bravehearts like to call it.
But until Tunics for men are brought out and made available to the public the right to go around in anything perceived as being "female" will be a tough sell for men.
We each have to make up our own minds as to what wqe can do in our own lives.
Their are anti-discrimination laws on the book the protect gays, lesbians and the trangendered community (that's were the new concept of TG comes from, our federal government).
If you have your wife's support I'd go for it!
So many of us hear need only that much to change our lives around.
Dennis A. Lederle

[WSmac]

Hmmm, this is a good one!

disclaimer: I enjoy this topic and my comments are not meant to be harsh or offensive to imadube

The opening comments are written from a narrow perspective on men wearing skirts and dresses.

Broaden that perspective to include the rest of the non-Western world and it pretty much fails.

Skirt and dress wearing has continued for men in other parts of the world, non-stop.
In those 'other' countries, men seem to not have the difficulties separating clothing choice from sexuality.

Your thoughts are completely Western in feeling

That's okay, at least you're coming 'round to our way of thinking!

Once again, one of our society's biggest problems comes to front... What we see is what is reality.

To speculate that there are more male-to-female transgendered people than female-to-male, is bad science my friend.(edited to say this should be directed to SkirtDude)

The FtoM's I have spoken with all started out living their adult and sometimes teen years as lesbians. Usually taking the dominant or 'male' oriented role.

So, how many lesbians might be transgendered but equally as confused about the whole issue as the general public?
To be sure, the F to M's I know are understandably upset that the M to F's get the bulk of the attention/recognition.
Women who appear masculine are not as worthy of attention in our society as Males who appear feminine.

There are many variations hidden under the umbrella, Transgendered.
The desire to wear pretty clothing and skirted clothing probably has little to do with 'turning' someone into a homosexual.

This argument is called, Post Hoc Ergo Propter Hoc.
Basically you are saying that because a young male wants to wear his sister's skirts (assuming that he doesn't have his own), and he is aware that 'something' is not quite right with it, he must be homosexual and therefore must move in that direction if for no other reason than to make sure.

They use the same sort of argument about marijuana... more heroine, coke, addicts smoked marijuana first. Supposedly this proves that smoking marijuana leads to 'harder' drugs.
This is a complete fallacy considering these same people have many other things in common in their lives that could also explain why they are taking these drugs.

You mention something else...
In the 70's, there was actually a little bit of information out there about transgenderd people. There were no terms to use other than 'a girl born in a boy's body', or transvestite, etc.
There's Christine Jorgenson from the 50's who wrote a book about her experience.
There's Dr. Renee Richards who's life was splashed across the tv screen in all it's black-and-white glory (we didn't have color tv yet ).

I was 10 in 1970, just to give you a reference point on my perspective and experience from that time.

For my entire conscious life (meaning the life I remember), I have known I should have a girl's body.
In the days of ESP, out-of-body transporting, Uri Geller bending spoons with his mind , Ouija boards, transcendental meditation, etc., I truly believed that if I concentrated hard enough, I could wake up in the morning in the correct body.

I have understood this all my life; this was not brought out in any sort of therapy.

It was this feeling, not the wearing of my sister's and... ick... my mom's clothing, that made me question my sexuality when I was young.
The clothing part was just an expression of my feelings, not a precursor for them.

I, too, learned that I was not attracted to males as a homosexual. Now, we could say that was from the creepy old guys who hit up a young fair-haired boy at the bus stop, but I really did try to figure out if I was homosexual or not.
Still, not understanding more about gender and it's variants left me with only two options - gay or straight.

Today, even though I reluctantly accept the label of Transgendered, I can understand that my propensity for wearing skirts and dresses (and I'm using the standard dictionary definition, not the gender-specific definition commonly applied to these words) can be seen as a separate issue from my gender issue.

I will acknowledge that as someone who wishes to express a more female gender, I would also like to dress in the common clothing of that gender.

But, I do want to make it clear that as most everyone here states over-and-over again... skirt wearing is about COMFORT, not gender, not sexuality.


Sorry folks.... I'm particularly bad at being concise when I have so much free time on my hands

I'll stop before I hit some kind of word count limit

I am glad you brought this subject up. I'm enjoying the comments...er... when I'm not spending hours typing out my own.

[Sarongman]

As my first post as a refugee from the frustratingly long closed off imff forum, I'll put my two penny worth to this thread. I believe that the culprit is a certain Anglo Saxon negative mindset compounded by a Christian emphasis on SIN Boys in early puberty are just getting used to the changes in their bodies and are often prey to a swirl of conflicting emotions, confusions and often, great guilt about their thoughts. In a free and open society, we would let them grow into their true personalities without any pressures and probably counsel those who still don't feel that they fit. In the early 60s as a naive and trusting boy, I fell in to conversation with a paedophile at 13 or 14 and, during the train ride was fondled to an erection until I was able to get free. This confused me for some two or three years, however, at the end of that time, I was sure of my sexuality ("straight", although I'm wary of that word as it denotes a form of sexual self righteousness) and am confident enough to acknowlege gay friends as ordiary people and not threats to society!
I never thought to dress in unbifurcated attire until I entered an Anglican seminary and found the freedom of wearing a cassock with nothing underneath Summer only, from then on, I was hooked- ergo the mini is not for me but ankle length is definitely the go.
I am veering from the point in hand , so will just say that being human means there will always be problems with perceptions and differences to the common herd mentality will always be codemned. The unfairness of it all still remains, Women can wear whatsoever they want and get away with it while we men are, if we are to be accepted as "kosher" members of society, condemned to the crotch burqas. Hey maybe this is the reason for transvestitism!

[staticsan]

And I mean most posts in the thread.

I was going to post that I only experimented with unbifircated garments once I moved into my own home. But then I recalled that that was not quite true: when I much younger my siblings and I used to play 'dress-up' with a old-clothes bag my mum had around. I don't recall what we were 'dressing-up' for, though...

I've also had reason recently to really explore how my sexuality works. I'm not homosexual (to guys). At all. It just does not work for me. If anything, I'm over in the other direction, not just attracted to girls, but in some way wanting to be one. I found a description for what this tendancy leads to: "male lesbian". I haven't yet figured out who tangled up this is with my attraction for skirts.

[Since1982]

If not for leather "leggings" which later became "trousers and pants", worn specifically for riding a horse without chafing your crotch raw when wearing a tunic or kilt on the saddle or back of the horse, WE would be wearing MUGs as a normal MANs style of clothing. Either tunics, kilts, sarongs, other wraps or robes would have gotten more and more fashionable for men over the centuries and today, a stop at a first class Men's clothing shop on Saville Row would have us leaving in a classy looking tunic, kilt or robe with a Tuxedo, Hunting or other style Jacket. We also wouldn't be thinking of how dressy or colorful our pocket patch was allowed to be.

[WSmac]

I have never really heard where pants/trousers came from other than the Turks started wearing some sort of trousers for horse-riding.

Leggings under skirts/dresses?

I know leggings have been popular throughout the world, but I guess I didn't make the connection between them and trousers... duh!

[Big and Bashful]

Since,
I think you might have a point there, maybe camels and hephalumps are less abrasive.