Oh, this will frost some of us, it did me!

[Scott]

We were discussing "reading gender" in my classes this week and how gender is a construct. A lot of the issues we touched on were old hat to this forum as far as: Guy comes home to find girlfriend/wife in his clothes = hot but if a woman came home and found her boyfriend/husband in one of her skirts = divorce/counseling/murder(?) and why if a woman wears a suit, it's fine, but if a guy wore a skirt he was a pervy.

Sadly, I don't have much hope for the future. A lot of the students held to the same tired viewpoints. It's easier for an elephant to pass through the eye of a needle than it is to pass a bb pellet through their minds, they are so narrow.

When I told them about my student who wore a kilt to class every day, since it wasn't plaid, they wrote him off as being a crossdresser. I told them about the guys wearing floor length skirts at the goth concert and they still insisted people looked at them funny at the show, even though no one did.

Oh there were a few brave souls, but they were shut down by the rest of the class. None of them had the wherewithal to stand up for their beliefs. I have to maintain a position of moderator/incoming cash flow and this being a fairly conservative school (I got called on the carpet for saying the synonym for manure that starts with "S," even though I apologized on the spot to the class.), to admit my own sartorial leanings would have been disastrous. I momentarily thought of showing up in tights and a skirt, but didn't. I'm sure I wouldn't be typing this now if I had.

[Departed Member]

Scott, that's really awful to hear! When we were taught 'debating', it was an un-written pre-requisite that we were expected to be able to present the subject from both sides, i.e., the best way to counter an 'enemy' is to be able to understand (and thus counter) their argument. Do you ever get the chance to introduce such tactics to your students? As a trained facilitator, I found this to be a useful 'tool' when undertaking management/worker team-building exercises. Worth a try?

[taosit]

I hate to concur with Scott, but in my 20+ years of working closely with college students of both genders, I see much the same thing, perhaps even more so in recent years. Of course it is not unsual to see a lot of intolerance and conformity in this age group. And that has given me some pause in my very much out and about skirting in my block since a couple of my guys have cruised past my house just to shoot the breeze with me. At the time I was in shorts, but they could have just as easily found me in a sarong or skirt. I've wondered how it might undermine my position as their supervisor, and what damage could result with my bosses. Where's that winning lottery ticket?

Merlin, the art of debating is almost a museum piece in the US. Just look at our Presidential "debates."

[Departed Member]

Merlin, the art of debating is almost a museum piece in the US. Just look at our Presidential "debates."

Yeah, seems hand in hand with US diplomacy skills (or rather, lack of!).


Back to the thread, UK kids of today appear to be under tremendous pressure to 'conform' to someone else's viewpoint - peer pressure at first glance, but is it? We have a government which is hell-bent on 'control' (and that doesn't have to be party political, either) of the populus. Most of today's youngsters seem devoid of imagination and freewill. Those that try to rise above it are rapidly 'put down' - starts in the schools, I'm sorry to say, and the boys take the brunt of it.

It's like the "I can't wear that!" "Why?" "It hasn't got a 'designer label!" "But it's identical and it cost less than a third!" "I'll get 'picked on' by my mates, that's why!" debates that are becoming all too common. I feel really sad for the kids, all becoming little more than clones of one another, in minds as well as clothes........... :shake:

[iain]

ok, ok, we're all agreed people find it impossible to move out of their accustomed rut even by one inch.

we all know that. what we don't know is, what are we going to do about it? well, women who have been involved with me came to accept it as normal. my g/f helps me choose ones she likes, and there are a surprising number of good looking, functional skirts for guys. check out g-star in covent garden. they have a black one with useful pockets (not half-inch deep ones), tough looking stitching and solid design.

and this saturday me and my stepdaughter are going to London and I'll be in a kilt or my new gstar skirt! so change people one at a time, if that's all we can do!

[Scott]

I hate to concur with Scott, but ."

Why? What did I do? Have I offended? If so, I'm sorry. Please elaborate.

[iain]

relax! he probably means he hates to agree that such a disheartening interpretation of things is probably true!!

[Scott]

Oh, alright. I don't want to offend anyone and would hope if I did folks would call me on it ASAP.

[crfriend]

I hate to concur with Scott [...]

Why? What did I do? Have I offended? If so, I'm sorry. Please elaborate.

I was originally going to flame off with a "brothers divided by a common language" remark, but that's clearly not the case here. I think what we have here is a basic "failure to communicate" due to overly-hasty response-times.

Now, those readers who have gotten past the first two sentences are going to ask, and quite naturally so, "What's this git going on about now?!" I'll tell you what -- it's that all too few folks actually take the time to read, and, more importantly, comprehend what another writer (or speaker, take your pick) has actually said (or tried to say). Why is this condition so common? One word: "time". We no longer allow ourselves the time required to interpret the thoughts presented to us either in writing (an increasingly rare form of communication, the Internet notwithstanding), or even in the spoken language; we react instinctively, within the first few syllables, before hearing the thought out -- and we're cheapened, as individuals and as societies, by that. So, lads, let's all try to understand the writers' thoughts here (as the written language is all we have in this forum, save assorted "smilies") before we either take offence or perceive to have offerred same.

Taosit was not even remotely offering insult or perceived offence toward Scott -- quite the opposite in fact! He was agreeing, in very stong terms, with the original ideas, the thrust of which he felt was unjust.

"What's this got to do with blokes in skirts?", you may reasonably ask. Well, there may be more here than meets the eye. Most folks are horribly stressed for "time" these days. They've got e-mail, cell-'phones, telephones, pagers, PDAs (no, not *that* form of PDA), and all other manner of instant interruption; one can hardly fault them for not having the time to contemplate the occasional "oddity" that intrudes into their comfortable little space (like the once-in-a-blue-moon bloke in a skirt). What are they to do? Can they afford to "invest" the time to rationally confront the entrenched notions that "skirts are for women only"? That's doubtful. So, they either dismiss the wearer as some form of freak (which is, for the most part, the best that "we" can hope for) or perceive the wearer as some form of threat that must be addressed immediately (either by calling the police or more "personal" physical or verbal assault).

So, let's please, please, try to listen to, and, yes, here, read, what folks are trying to say before reaching for the keyboard.

Cheers, lads.

[Scott]

crfriend,

I think I'm the one being misinterpreted now. If you go back through and read it several times, shifting emphasis on word groups each time through, whether main subject "I hate to concur" or object of the preposition "with Scott," the phrase can lend itself to ambiguity and since the written form lacks the shifts in volume/tone and accompanying physical hand/facial expressions of the oral form, that's my confusion and why I asked, "Did I do something wrong?"

I know I could get to be sometimes over the top when I posted on the old site, but I hoped I wasn't doing it here.

I hope I clear myself up there.

[gshubert]

Most of the messages in the forum recently have been very thoughtful, well-considered, and full of heart. I appreciate all the different points of view, and how well, generally, they are expressed. Thanks to you all.

[taosit]

relax! he probably means he hates to agree that such a disheartening interpretation of things is probably true!!

Scott, Ian has my meaning spot on, as does crfriend:

Taosit was not even remotely offering insult or perceived offence toward Scott -- quite the opposite in fact! He was agreeing, in very stong terms, with the original ideas, the thrust of which he felt was unjust.

The written word is all I have to go on here and my writing style sometimes is stream of consicousness and disjointed, though I don't think so in this case. Scott may rely more on auditory or visual cues that are lacking in this medium. Nevertheless, we remain comrades in arms.

[Scott]

I just didn't want to offend anyone. I don't know anyone here personally, but I like everyone here. Glad that's all sorted out then.

[iain]

I think long posts are counter-productive sometimes--when a person goes on too long, whether it be giving a sermon, playing a solo or presenting an argument.. they tend to cancel themselves out.

Was a good day out today. Wore a black denim g-star skirt out with my stepdaughter, who was in jeans. Maybe 500 people will be going home from london today and telling someone "I saw something unusual today: a guy in a black denim skirt--shopping with a cute girl--he didn't look so bad."

..I hope!

let's count any threads we've managed to kill--this one counts as one for me!