Fashion freedom, through my wife's eyes

[MtnBiker]

My wife & I were talking last week... I was telling her about the BBC radio show mentioned here, where guys phoned in to talk about wearing women's clothes and 'fashion freedom'.

She thinks men already have fashion freedom, and to a larger degree than women. Some examples she gave were that if she wanted to wear a skirt to a dress-nice-but-not-formal party she would still be (in other's minds) required to wear pantyhose and unreasonable shoes). I on the other hand would wear any of my kilts, for instance and a pair of tall socks and reasonable shoes. Additionally, she feels societal pressure to wear makeup all most all the time. Thankfully, us guys do not. It cannot be argued that makeup could be used to enhance anyone's (guy or girl) appearance but guys get by without it.

She pointed out that I get more comments on some of my hats than I ever get on a skirt. She says we're free to wear most anything respectful -- just be prepared for any possible comment. Most folks are not even going to notice, and if they notice they are not going to care. The ones who notice enough to comment would comment on a strange hat or strange shoes or strange jewelry -- it's the strangeness that prompts the comment, not the skirt itself.

True? I think yes. Maybe somewhat of a simplification, yet true nonetheless.

[me012247]

There is no fashion freedom at least not in the US. Of course, you can wear what you want in most states I know, but because WE - males - are always concerned about what others might think about us, we follow the "rules". There are guys out there having problems wearing a pink shirt. I know older guys they never would wear shorts and I know (older) women refusing to wear any kinds of pants/shorts at all. My wife has no problems with my kilts/skirts to any public places however, she is not a fashion freedom advocat.

[iain]

It's actually just a question of perspective. if someone feels obliged to wear a certain thing in a given situation, their entire focus will be on this restriction and how awful it feels.

I know of a girl who went to a girls' school where the uniform was, in her words, "a great big skirt which seemed to start somewhere at the chest and was so unflattering".

she hates skirts now. whenever she feels obliged to wear one, at some formal affair like a wedding, she gets really angry. nothing more than programming.. maybe we men are more free than we think we are.

[MtnBiker]

Of course, you can wear what you want ...

Sounds a lot like freedom, to me.

[skirttron]

Yeah Biker, I guess a lot of guys get by without makeup, but just about all men on TV and all male politicians use it, and so do I if appearance is important and the occasion demands it (e.g. making a presentation). It's just that our kind is supposed to be invisible.

[crfriend]

It's actually just a question of perspective. if someone feels obliged to wear a certain thing in a given situation, their entire focus will be on this restriction and how awful it feels.

The basic premise here is correct -- it's about what one feels "obliged to wear". And for men, that means a "monkey suit". We are expected to wear them to weddings, to funerals (including our own!), to work, to job interviews, and whenever we're "expected to look our best". Yeah, that's freedom -- the same dull, drab, boring, blend-into-the-crowd, and don't-stand-out look. That's not freedom -- that's shackles!

I know of a girl who went to a girls' school where the uniform was, in her words, "a great big skirt which seemed to start somewhere at the chest and was so unflattering".

she hates skirts now. whenever she feels obliged to wear one, at some formal affair like a wedding, she gets really angry. nothing more than programming.. maybe we men are more free than we think we are.

That's her baggage, and she's entitled to it. In fact she can revel in it, as, it seems, she does.

The point here is that men are "expected" to look like penguins when we're not otherwise looking like denim-clad reprobates. Yes, that may well be our baggage, but I for one do not see a need to make excuses for it, nor revel in it. And that's the foundation of the "we are not free" argument -- there's an expectation; the other team has shrugged that off -- heck women are getting married in pants these days (yes, men get married in kilts, but that's as costume not as everyday, or even common, wear). It's still a long road ahead, and we've just turned out of the driveway. Put the hammer down.

[AMM]

...

She thinks men ... have fashion freedom ... to a larger degree than women. Some examples she gave were that if she wanted to wear a skirt to a dress-nice-but-not-formal party she would still be (in other's minds) required to wear pantyhose and unreasonable shoes). .... Additionally, she feels societal pressure to wear makeup all most all the time. ...

Well, in the circles I move in (outside of work), few women wear make-up, at least not on a regular basis.
And they wear pantyhose and "uncomfortable shoes" (with pants or with skirts) mostly when as a sort of
tactic -- if you want to make it more likely that the Muggles will take you seriously, for example.
(E.g., job interviews, court appearances, meetings with recalcitrant school officials or politicians.)
This is basically the same situation when I would wear my Brooks Brothers suit and tie.

But the folks I hang around with are not exactly conformist. They tend to be "progressive"
and also quirky. They tend to be intelligent and thoughtful and value honesty (well, most of the
time....)

I think "pressure" is partly a matter of perception, partly a matter of who you associate with, and partly
a matter of your willingness to engage with people's discomfort with your non-conformity.

I don't think it's fundamentally any different from dealing with pressures to drink, to use drugs, or to
join in with sexist or racist behavior. You can just not spend any more time than necessary with such people,
or you can stay with them but just say no (Miss Manners: "the way to say 'No' is often.")

And more often than you think, when you actually do something you think others will give you
a hard time for, they don't react as negatively as you would expect. They may even react
positively, if you are polite, self-confident, and not defensive about it.

If this sounds a lot like what people here are saying about wearing skirts, I don't
think it's just a coincidence.

-- AMM

[Sylvain]

Yeah Biker, I guess a lot of guys get by without makeup, but just about all men on TV and all male politicians use it, and so do I if appearance is important and the occasion demands it (e.g. making a presentation). It's just that our kind is supposed to be invisible.

Makeup on a stage, in a theatre or on TV, is not the same thing. W/o it, one would look pale and sweaty.

[Skirt Chaser]

Some examples she gave were that if she wanted to wear a skirt to a dress-nice-but-not-formal party she would still be (in other's minds) required to wear pantyhose and unreasonable shoes).

That argument works for me only if she had no other options. Slacks with cowboy boots come to mind as an alternative for her that skips the hose and uncomfy shoes.

She says we're free to wear most anything respectful -- just be prepared for any possible comment.

It seems to me that applies to women too. AMM has a good point that is is a matter of perception. She probably feels the same hesitancy to break the mold that most men do when it comes to trying something other than trousers for an event.

Apart from office attire expected of men another example of men getting a bad deal is concerts. Last time I went to the symphony every man on stage wore an identical tuxedo. Meanwhile, the female musicians only had to follow a color rule of black and dressy. Now the men may have been free to dress in black clothes of any type but I doubt it.

It is easy to point fingers and say one group gets more freedom than another but each is situational. I don't think there is anything to be gained by comparing the pressure women face to wear clothing deemed age appropriate with men given firm hair length limits as a condition of employment. An individual may encounter a lot or none of the biases their gender can experience. Besides, freedom is not just how a person may appear, it also includes my freedom to see a man in a skirt. Rather than one group gets off easier than the other, perhaps it is better to say enforced norms suck for everybody.

Quiet Mouse

[Stevie D]

Apart from office attire expected of men another example of men getting a bad deal is concerts. Last time I went to the symphony every man on stage wore an identical tuxedo. Meanwhile, the female musicians only had to follow a color rule of black and dressy. Now the men may have been free to dress in black clothes of any type but I doubt it.
Quiet Mouse

Hi QM,

I am a musician - I play clarinet in the Sheffield Chamber Orchestra. I agree totally with your comments about mens' concert dress. It is very boring and SO uncomfortable. I hate wearing anything tight round my neck, and the collar and bow tie are so restrictive, especially for a wind player.

A couple of years ago I took the decision to wear the same sort of clothes as the women orchestra members at concerts. People knew I wore skirts anyway as I'd worn skirts of various sorts at rehearsals for quite a while previously. So I just turned up to the concert wearing a long black silk wrap-around skirt, teamed up with a womens black linen open V-neck top. Black sandals, no hose (it was summer). Absolutely no comment from anyone, conductor, leader, fellow players, audience members. And SO comfortable and fluid. Since that time I've worn skirts of some sort at nearly every concert. I would hate to have to go back to wearing the DJ (tux), and I've no intention of doing so while I continue to play in this orchestra. I especially like my black silk skirt. It's fluidity somehow seems to help the job in hand - i.e. playing the music.

There is a UK man - Paul Chi - who organises 'Healthy Concerts' - small, acoustic concerts held in small halls and peoples' own homes. Some of these he promotes as 'trouser-free' for performers and audience alike. I've not managed to attend any of these, but I think it is a great idea. More information here:
TROUSER FREE Healthy Concerts

Paul Chi's picture is here:
Paul Chi

There is a Yahoo Group for Trouser-Free concerts here:
Yahoo Group - Trouser Free, but you need to join the group to take part in the discussions.

I will be skirted at the next Sheffield Chamber Orchestra concert on 20th May. More details here:
Sheffield Chamber Orchestra concerts
Cheers,

[iain]

neat link with that paul chi guy! very interesting. whoops, late for work--have a good day everyone

[skirts4me]

[FONT="Lucida Sans Unicode"]Iain wrote: [FONT="Franklin Gothic Medium"]"I know of a girl who went to a girls' school where the uniform was, in her words, "a great big skirt which seemed to start somewhere at the chest and was so unflattering".

she hates skirts now. whenever she feels obliged to wear one, at some formal affair like a wedding, she gets really angry."[/FONT]

This is a classic case of letting a bad experience from her past dictate how she feels and reacts now, and will do in the future. Not much opportunity there for an enjoyable life ahead.[/FONT]

[Skirt Chaser]

There is a UK man - Paul Chi - who organises 'Healthy Concerts' - small, acoustic concerts held in small halls and peoples' own homes. Some of these he promotes as 'trouser-free' for performers and audience alike. I've not managed to attend any of these, but I think it is a great idea. More information here:
TROUSER FREE Healthy Concerts

Oh no! Troublemaker me would feel stifled by the rules and try to smuggle myself into a Trouser-Free Concert in jeans. :rolleyes: Your concerts sound fun though, Steve. I'm impressed and proud of your group being so open to your wardrobe. Must be a good bunch of people. If I ever get to travel you'll be sure to have a fan waving from the audience!

Quiet Mouse

[Stevie D]

Oh no! Troublemaker me would feel stifled by the rules and try to smuggle myself into a Trouser-Free Concert in jeans.

You would probably be handed a tasteful sarong at the entrance. No exceptions to the unbifurcated rule!

Your concerts sound fun though, Steve. I'm impressed and proud of your group being so open to your wardrobe. Must be a good bunch of people. If I ever get to travel you'll be sure to have a fan waving from the audience!

Yes - they are fun, that's why we continue to meet as an orchestra. It's been going since 1950, and I've been in it since 1975 apart from a 4 year gap in the 1980s when I lived in South Wales. Mostly the people are very friendly indeed, apart from the odd row which soon blows over. I have never had any adverse comment about my choice of clothing, and as advertised, I wore my silk wrap skirt and linen top for the concert last weekend. I wasn't just hiding in the back row of the woodwind, either. As treasurer, I had to be milling around among the audience and guest soloists at various points in the evening, as well as playing on the concert platform. I felt completely at ease throughout. I guess I am very fortunate.

[sterlin6]

Reading these posts I suppose I should consider myself lucky being able to wear the kilt as my preferred dress as being our National dress noone bats an eyelid when I go anywhere dressed in my kilts. I have the usual dress outfits for formal wear but mostly I wear one of my kilts with a tweed day jacket kilt hose black brogue shoes(not too heavy) , blue shirt and tie, and all comments are complimentary and you wouldnt believe the number of visitors who ask if they can have a photo taken with me. Its quite embarrassing at times but at least I get to wear my kilts, which gives me the best feeling on earth. Ive been to various functions in places in England and somehow expect some smart remarks but strangely Ive had none and in fact found that everyone there male and especially females are very complimentary on my wearing the kilt.
I consider myself very fortunate.