Why can't MEN admit what the kilt is really about?

Kilt-based fashions, both traditional and contemporary. Come on guys, bring on the pleats!
STEVIE
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Why can't MEN admit what the kilt is really about?

Post by STEVIE »

shadowfax wrote: Mon Nov 04, 2024 2:16 pm "Why can’t Scottish men admit what the kilt is really about?".
Hi Shadowfax, and everyone, prepare for a rant!

For starters, strike Scottish and read, "Why can't MEN admit what the kilt is really about"?
Then Mark Smith himself,
“But how many men are hiding their true feelings? How many men would like to try “women’s clothes”? And how many of them are secretly doing it when they put on their kilts?”
In a nutshell, the Kilt is the most stealthy, devious and misunderstood man skirt money can buy.
Wake up and smell the coffee folks, this is hardly the latest news, just look at café history to discover how deep this really runs.
There is also a whole raft of discussion around the kilt being an “entry level” skirt for men.
While I don’t subscribe to this notion, I will concede that it is for a portion of men in skirts.
Now the ranty bit, look around some of the latest posts about men in skirts moving forward.
It’s not great, is it?
Are kilts, modern and traditional still selling well?
Yes, they are actually, despite the fact that they are largely based on hype, money and political scullduggery.
The conclusion has to be that a lot of men are wearing kilts as skirts hidden in plain sight.
There is no evidence, whatsoever to suggest that any significant portion of kilt wearers are breaking cover and running across the aisle to show their true feelings.
Fact is folks, there is no answer, so no point in twisting your knickers or bunching your panties over this worm-eaten old potato.
Men do this, just because they are men who are afraid, for a multiplicity of reasons, to admit their leanings.
Finally, another interesting point, that piece was published in 2021, around the same time those threads appeared here, synchronicity or something else.
Still no answer, except wear whatever you wish, but if the truth is unpalatable, keep the lies to yourself.
Steve.
Stu
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Re: Why can't MEN admit what the kilt is really about?

Post by Stu »

A stetson is a type of hat

A rapier is a type of sword

A ballgown is a type of dress

A bongo is a type of drum

And a kilt is a type of skirt

This is a concept known in linguistics as hyponomy. The claim that a kilt is not a skirt is using semantics to deny a fact.
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shadowfax
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Re: Why can't MEN admit what the kilt is really about?

Post by shadowfax »

STEVIE wrote: Wed Nov 06, 2024 1:19 pm
shadowfax wrote: Mon Nov 04, 2024 2:16 pm "Why can’t Scottish men admit what the kilt is really about?".
Just to be clear. STEVIE has misquoted me! :wink: :)
The quote was actually written by Mark Smith of The Herald, in an article for his newspaper.
"Why can’t Scottish men admit what the kilt is really about?".
I realise that folks on SkirtCafe might not be able to read the article, in all of the territories in which members live.
Earlier this week, in a post, in a thread of STEVIE's, I created an archived version of "Why can’t Scottish men admit what the kilt is really about?".
Link (below) to archived version of "Why can’t Scottish men admit what the kilt is really about?".
http://archive.is/8jMV1

Steve (STEVIE), I agree with the points in your post above. :)
Last edited by shadowfax on Wed Nov 06, 2024 2:29 pm, edited 5 times in total.
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shadowfax
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Re: Why can't MEN admit what the kilt is really about?

Post by shadowfax »

Folks reading this thread might also wish to read STEVIE's earlier thread about "The Glasgow Herald" article.
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JohnH
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Re: Why can't MEN admit what the kilt is really about?

Post by JohnH »

For those who don't like to call a kilt a skirt, it's an unbifurcated garment. :D :D :D

John
I renounce the Great Male Renunciation!!!
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Re: Why can't MEN admit what the kilt is really about?

Post by Modoc »

I have long since given up on the idea that the majority of people will ever accept the fact that skirts, dresses, and shoes, pretty much all clothes for that matter, are not necessarily a direct link to some latent desire in the person who wears them to express an alternative gender identity. Why can't a kilt or a skirt be just that and not a subliminal expression to be or exhibit a desire to be someone else? This is not to say that such may or may not be the case, but rather to say, so what if it is? Does it really matter? What is the truth that Scotsmen are hiding that the author seems to know full well?
These kinds of assertions keep many would-be skirts, kilt, dresses, heels, and what-have-you wearers from thoroughly enjoying their desired choice of clothes in their daily lives, which is just sad.
I won't pretend that this is something I could have done thirty years ago, but as of today, I find myself in the most fortunate position of not needing to care what people think of me and how I dress.
“And the time came when the risk to remain tight in a bud was more painful than the risk it took to blossom.”
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Re: Why can't MEN admit what the kilt is really about?

Post by DrFishnets »

I must confess that when I wear a kilt I will be honest and say it’s a substitute for wearing a skirt but still seen by society as wearing male clothing. I only put on my kilt when I’m feeling a bit vulnerable but when I’m feeling brave and adventurous I put on my skirts or dresses that I’ve bought from the women’s clothes department.
My name is Artie. I’m a guy in a skirt and a hobbiest musician and artist. 8)
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Mouse
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Re: Why can't MEN admit what the kilt is really about?

Post by Mouse »

DrFishnets wrote: Wed Nov 06, 2024 7:29 pm I must confess that when I wear a kilt I will be honest and say it’s a substitute for wearing a skirt but still seen by society as wearing male clothing. I only put on my kilt when I’m feeling a bit vulnerable but when I’m feeling brave and adventurous I put on my skirts or dresses that I’ve bought from the women’s clothes department.
I echo this totally. I freely admit that a utility kilt was my starting point and I don't think there is anything wrong with that. A kilt is a very useful skirt when dealing with difficult situations. A Skirtcraft gender neutral skirt can perform the same job, except you have to explain it, whereas a kilt you don't.
Daily, a happy man in a skirt...
Barleymower
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Re: Why can't MEN admit what the kilt is really about?

Post by Barleymower »

STEVIE wrote: Wed Nov 06, 2024 1:19 pm “But how many men are hiding their true feelings? How many men would like to try “women’s clothes”? And how many of them are secretly doing it when they put on their kilts?”
...
Still no answer, except wear whatever you wish, but if the truth is unpalatable, keep the lies to yourself.
Steve.
Stevie
Try this on for size:
Femininity and masculinity may be made up but it's made up for a reason: A man's function is to look after women.
What about equality? Women don't really want equality, they want parity without the burden.

I think it's a bizarre situation that men like women in nice clothes but aparently they only like the feel of such fine cloth when a women is wearing it. That's rubbish of course. I think that if it were acceptable, all men would be dressing up and enjoying clothes just like you and Susie.

Women have admitted they love men clothes and take great pleasure in a nice pair of rugged trousers. If men did the same and they admitted they liked soft fine fabrics the world might be a happier place where equality exists and burdens are shared.
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Re: Why can't MEN admit what the kilt is really about?

Post by robehickman »

Barleymower wrote: Wed Nov 06, 2024 9:11 pm
STEVIE wrote: Wed Nov 06, 2024 1:19 pm “But how many men are hiding their true feelings? How many men would like to try “women’s clothes”? And how many of them are secretly doing it when they put on their kilts?”
...
Still no answer, except wear whatever you wish, but if the truth is unpalatable, keep the lies to yourself.
Steve.
Stevie
Try this on for size:
Femininity and masculinity may be made up but it's made up for a reason: A man's function is to look after women.
What about equality? Women don't really want equality, they want parity without the burden.

I think it's a bizarre situation that men like women in nice clothes but aparently they only like the feel of such fine cloth when a women is wearing it. That's rubbish of course. I think that if it were acceptable, all men would be dressing up and enjoying clothes just like you and Susie.

Women have admitted they love men clothes and take great pleasure in a nice pair of rugged trousers. If men did the same and they admitted they liked soft fine fabrics the world might be a happier place where equality exists and burdens are shared.
Biologically, the function of males is to impregnate females - the concept that males exist to 'protect' females is probably something humans have made up and then teach. In other animals many species do not form pair bonds at all, and males may not do anything to support females or young. I can't give specific examples without spending more time on research than I want to right now, but such examples are easy to find.

The second and third paragraphs I think relate to a fundamental problem in how humans view clothing - adopting things broadly to be the same as others (what is 'in fashion'), not because the thing that they are copying makes any sense whatsoever.

Heavy robust trousers make practical sense if one is doing physical labour that puts a lot of wear on clothing... the vast majority of men, at least in western society, are working in offices on computers, or doing similar non-demanding stuff, and such clothing makes very little sense in this environment because it is horribly movement restricting, and very insulating which is awful in hot weather.


It relates to the point raised in Jordan's article on masculine fashion being 'ready for action'. What is appropriate depends entirely on what 'action' one is doing. For the work and environments most people are operating in today, it would work perfectly fine for everyone to be wearing thin breezy clothing in hot weather, and warmer thicker things when it is cold.

Fabric being soft vs not soft depending on function is I think senseless - it is probably well within the capacity of current material science to make all kinds of fabric feel soft, regardless if it is lightweight, or thick and hard wearing.

Adopt things as appropriate for the situation.
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Re: Why can't MEN admit what the kilt is really about?

Post by STEVIE »

Stu wrote: Wed Nov 06, 2024 1:56 pm This is a concept known in linguistics as hyponomy. The claim that a kilt is not a skirt is using semantics to deny a fact.
I have little knowledge of linguistics Stu, but broadly agree on the fact that a kilt is a skirt.
Problem is that the denial is not based on any rational thought, but a misplaced emotional attachment based on a complete myth.
Modoc wrote: Wed Nov 06, 2024 5:47 pm What is the truth that Scotsmen are hiding that the author seems to know full well?
The truth is Modoc, that the vast majority of kilt wearing men, not just Scots cannot acknowledge that the kilt is a skirt.
In the cafe, I have been criticised for openly correcting a comment based on a kilted SKIRT, not a Kilt that I was wearing at the time.
The complainant was effectively stating that I should perpetuate a lie by falsely acknowledging a skirt as a kilt.
Note, there is no substantive logic to this.
Barleymower wrote: Wed Nov 06, 2024 9:11 pm Women have admitted they love men clothes and take great pleasure in a nice pair of rugged trousers. If men did the same and they admitted they liked soft fine fabrics the world might be a happier place where equality exists and burdens are shared.
I will leave Susie to make her own comments BM, but I'd agree wholeheartedly.
Boys and men are discouraged, if not forbidden, to sample things that are open and acceptable to their female peers.
robehickman wrote: Thu Nov 07, 2024 1:23 am It relates to the point raised in Jordan's article on masculine fashion being 'ready for action'.
Sorry RH, please post a link to "Jordan's" article, but note this is about the male attitude to the kilt in relation to skirts and not generalised men's fashion nor human biology.

Please folks, don't let this drift into silly territory or acrimony and a flame war.
The kilt is a skirt is a kilt is actually still a very real issue for a lot of men.
The problem which I have is that most of the notions of it's history and cultural importance are based on one premise, a bloody lie!
That part is also crucial yet, illogically, irrelevant to it's role in menswear history.
The kilt really is a skirt, womenswear, magically morphed into one of the most widely accepted macho masculine garments in fashion history.

Personal note, on Saturday 2nd November, I did not attend a family wedding, instead I had a wonderful day out with Susie and a 19 month old Cockapoo called Poppy.
If anyone feels like they have the right to criticise my attitude ponder this.
The majority of the male guests would have been in a skirt called a kilt, I was effectively excluded because I actively wear a skirt which is given it's proper name.
That said, no regrets, because there is nothing better than telling the truth and finding acceptance for that truth.
Happily too, there is an amusing little story, embarrassing actually, arising from Saturday which I will regale you with elsewhere.
Steve.
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Re: Why can't MEN admit what the kilt is really about?

Post by Faldaguy »

I have reported here times where I was asked if the skirt I was wearing was a kilt. My answer typically has been, "no, just a skirt" -- but this thread leads me to believe I've been missing an opportunity: I think my answer should be more along the lines of: "Though a kilt is a skirt, this is just a pleaded skirt (or whatever it may be) but it doesn't have the yards of wool, pattern, or style that define a kilted skirt; this is much more versatile , comfortable, and doesn't cost the fortune a kilt does!"

I think this might be enough said to open a conversation about men and skirts rather than the more easily dismissed reply I previously used; and it might help the person accept the more generic notion of "men in skirts" rather than some Scot hanging out commando with the almost inevitable next question.
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Re: Why can't MEN admit what the kilt is really about?

Post by Skirt18220 »

I wear kilts and skirts all the time. I can agree that a kilt is just a style of skirt. I wear skirts because I like the cooling qualities and the freedom of movement.
I however can honestly say that I do not have any tendency towards other "female" attire. I don't wear tights. I don't wear dresses. I don't wear high heels. it is not because I can't. it is strictly because I have no wish too.
I don't judge those who do. you do what makes you feel good.
I do wish those that do wouldn't put there choices and desires on those of us who just want to wear skirts period.

Dan
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Re: Why can't MEN admit what the kilt is really about?

Post by STEVIE »

Let us be absolutely clear about my reasons for creating this thread in the first place.
It is not about inflicting anything on anyone or attempting to call anyone out either!
It is about honesty and self integrity.
I honestly don't care about who wears whatever, no skin off my nose.
This is a case for the cap, skirt or kilt fitting, and wearing it, loudly and proudly.
Let's return to that wedding on Saturday 2nd November, and pose the question, hypothetically, to the guests.
A highly significant number of the male guests would be truly offended, just by it being posed.
At the same time, virtually none of the women saw the kilted men, as they truly were, men in skirts.
Had it been otherwise, my presence may just have been tolerated, still a hell of a long way from accepted.
I am most incredibly lucky to have found the most complete acceptance elsewhere, and in particular with Susie.
However, that not so inclusive family occasion is a microcosm of societal attitude to men in Kilts.
A stark reality of being rejected for being defiantly honest and true to oneself.
Since I made no apologies or excuses for my absence then, I am certainly not making any here.
Steve.
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Re: Why can't MEN admit what the kilt is really about?

Post by Dust »

robehickman wrote: Thu Nov 07, 2024 1:23 am Biologically, the function of males is to impregnate females - the concept that males exist to 'protect' females is probably something humans have made up and then teach. In other animals many species do not form pair bonds at all, and males may not do anything to support females or young. I can't give specific examples without spending more time on research than I want to right now, but such examples are easy to find.
But we are a pair bonding species. And that allows us to have females be extremely vulnerable while pregnant and nursing, and for children to take far longer than any other species that I'm aware of to be ready to take care of themselves. Which in turn allows us to develop our incredible brains beyond those of other species.

In a society without modern technology, single motherhood in humans is near impossible. We could not have survived as we are without males providing support and protection to mothers and children. It's not made up, it's what our species had to do to survive, pre-industrial revolution, and is likely baked right into our DNA. And it still provides better outcomes for children if their father is involved in their upbringing.
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