Skort Question

[Stu]

I have a close relative who is a teacher and she was talking about how her school, which has a strict uniform policy, does not permit boys to wear shorts in summer - she has a son at a school as well and he was complaining about the policy. The view was that shorts were too informal and, if boys were allowed to wear them, girls would want to do the same. The UK government department dealing with education has recently said that schools should be encouraged to adopt gender neutral policies as much as possible, but that skirts are still regarded as for girls. She casually mentioned that one option would be skorts as they are as practical as shorts while being as smart as skirts, and she thought many boys would see them as a compromise and content to wear them. I was surprised and delighted with that view, but a bit sceptical, so I emailed a local supplier to ask whether they considered skorts to be exclusively for girls or as gender neutral and so suitable for boys. I received a reply very quickly stating that they don't supply skorts at the moment, but they have in the past and might again at some point. Their view was that skorts were a "style of skirt" and for girls only. So who is right? Is it:

(a) A teacher/mother who says that skorts are in a category of their own - neither shorts nor skirts and thus should be regarded as unisex?

(b) The uniform supplier who says that skorts are simply a type or style of skirt and so only suitable for females and marketed as such?

If anyone uses an online AI, it would be interesting to know what the computer thinks.

[Barleymower]

They are both right depending on your perspective.
I would like to see them as unisex but I doubt it will be seen that way by the herd. Anything remotely feminine in many circles is 'for girls only' or 'a bit gay'.
I saw a massive swing in favour of men wearing skirts this weekend at the seaside from one (me) to five. That was a huge difference. You can bet that if I saw five there were lots more out there. A reasonable estimate would be ten for each one I saw.

[zjo]

If anyone uses an online AI, it would be interesting to know what the computer thinks.

I consulted ChatGPT on this and a few bonus questions to see it’s views and this is what is says:

1. Are skorts only for females?

ChatGPT
Skorts are not exclusively for females, although they are more commonly associated with women's fashion. Skorts, which combine the look of a skirt with the practicality of shorts, can be designed for both genders. Some sports uniforms, such as tennis or golf outfits, may include skorts for both men and women. Fashion trends can vary, so it's possible to find skorts designed for anyone, regardless of gender, if you look for them.

2. Why does the UK government think that school uniforms should be gender neutral but skirts are still only for girls?

ChatGPT
The topic of school uniforms and gender neutrality is a complex and evolving one, and opinions on this issue can vary within and outside of governments. In the UK, as of my last knowledge update in September 2021, there were discussions and efforts to make school uniforms more gender-neutral to be more inclusive of all students. This might include allowing students to choose uniforms that match their gender identity and expression, rather than adhering strictly to traditional gendered uniform options.

Regarding skirts specifically, some schools have made adjustments to their uniform policies to accommodate gender diversity by allowing all students, regardless of gender, to wear trousers or shorts as an option instead of skirts. However, the pace of change in this regard can vary between schools and regions.

It's essential to note that public opinion and government policies can evolve over time, and I don't have access to information beyond September 2021. To get the most up-to-date information on this topic, you should consult the latest news and government announcements or official guidelines related to school uniforms in the UK.

3. What garments can’t be worn by males?

ChatGPT
In modern fashion and society, there are no specific garments that cannot be worn by males. Clothing choices are generally a matter of personal style, cultural norms, and individual expression. While certain garments may have traditional associations with one gender or another, these distinctions have become increasingly blurred over time.

For example, skirts and dresses have traditionally been associated with women's fashion, but there's nothing inherently preventing males from wearing them if they choose to do so. Similarly, pants, suits, and shirts, which were historically associated with men's fashion, are now commonly worn by people of all genders.

In summary, clothing choices are largely a matter of personal preference and comfort, and there are no absolute restrictions on what garments can be worn by males or any other gender. Society's understanding of gender and fashion continues to evolve, encouraging greater inclusivity and freedom of expression in clothing choices.

4. How can I forbid my boyfriend from using skirts?

ChatGPT
It's important to approach conversations about clothing choices with sensitivity and respect for your boyfriend's individuality and autonomy. If you have concerns or discomfort about his choice to wear skirts, it's best to have an open and honest discussion rather than attempting to forbid him from doing so. Here are some tips for approaching this conversation:

Choose the Right Time and Place: Find a comfortable and private setting where you can have a calm and respectful conversation without interruptions.
Express Your Feelings: Share your feelings and concerns honestly but without judgment. Use "I" statements to express how his choice makes you feel and why you have these feelings.
Listen Actively: Give him the opportunity to express his perspective and reasons for wearing skirts. Listening to each other is essential for understanding.
Seek Compromise: Instead of forbidding him outright, try to find a compromise that both of you can agree on. Perhaps there are certain situations or events where he can wear skirts, but others where he might choose different clothing.
Respect His Autonomy: Ultimately, it's his choice what he wears. It's important to respect his autonomy and individuality in making clothing choices.
Reflect on Your Feelings: Take some time to think about your own feelings and the reasons behind them. Sometimes, understanding your own emotions better can help in having a more productive conversation.
Remember, healthy relationships are built on open communication, understanding, and respect for each other's choices. It's essential to approach this discussion with empathy and a willingness to find common ground.

5. Why many people think that women should be able to wear anything they want but at the same time think that men can’t wear certain types of garments?

ChatGPT
The perception that women should have more freedom in their clothing choices compared to men may be influenced by historical and societal norms. Traditionally, women's fashion has seen more variation and evolution, which has led to greater diversity in clothing options for women. Additionally, there has been a push for gender equality and women's rights, including the right to choose how they express themselves through clothing.

On the other hand, men's fashion has often been more conservative and has seen less change over time. Societal expectations around masculinity have traditionally been more rigid, which can lead to the perception that certain garments, such as skirts or dresses, are off-limits to men.

However, it's important to note that these perceptions are changing, and there is a growing awareness of the importance of gender-neutral fashion and allowing people of all genders to express themselves freely through clothing. Many people advocate for breaking down these traditional gender norms to promote greater inclusivity and personal expression for everyone.

Ultimately, the perception that women have more freedom in clothing choices is a reflection of historical norms and stereotypes, but societal attitudes are evolving, and more people are recognizing the importance of equal clothing choices for all genders.

———

I think it’s safe to say that ChatGPT is quite liberal and definitely an advocate for fashion freedom for everyone

[Barleymower]

ChatGPT came back saying that it's knowledge bases is from 2021. I had a look of the government's website and nothing 'sèems' to have changed. That is schools should recognise students gender expression. They should also also seek guidance from the equalites act 2010. Last updated 2015.

ie if you feel like a girl, wear a skirt (if you want too) otherwise, trousers.

[denimini]

They are just two opinions, no doubt there are many more and what we think is right is yet another opinion; it is not science. There are many items marketed to a particular group and purchased by others; 4WD off road vehicles for instance purchased for city use.

I think of skorts as shorts with a modesty apron or skirts with an integral modesty undergarment, applicable to both sexes but predominantly to the male anatomy, although currently marketed to the female gender.

I think it’s safe to say that ChatGPT is quite liberal and definitely an advocate for fashion freedom for everyone

Which indicates that the bulk of published material is oriented that way, which is encouraging.

[rode_kater]

I think it’s safe to say that ChatGPT is quite liberal and definitely an advocate for fashion freedom for everyone

Which indicates that the bulk of published material is oriented that way, which is encouraging.

Oh come now, surely you know that reality has a liberal bias

(For those that don't know, this is a joke about the tendency for things that are backed by statistics and scientific studies to be denounced by conservatives as having a "liberal bias". So taking it to the extreme, reality must itself have a liberal bias. Liberals tend not to have a problem with the scientific consensus or society changing over time.)

Back to the topic at hand: skorts can be pretty useful in some situations. I understand their use in sports so you don't have to worry where your skirt is going. And some skorts have such a wide leg they don't feel like shorts at all. I have two iirc.

[e2k2houck]

Skorts are just a skirt with built in underwear. Unfortunately the underwear part isn't designed, at least for now, for men's junk.

[rivegauche]

The skort seems to me to be the worst possible type of garment. I know that if you go out in an actual skirt no one says anything but a few of them are probably thinking stuff about gender. If you wear a skort, they are still thinking it and the wearer gets none of the comfort elements of the actual skirt. So all the disbenefits and none of the benefits. I have one that I bought by accident in a charity shop think it was a skirt but have rarely worn it and never in public.

[STEVIE]

The skort seems to me to be the worst possible type of garment. I know that if you go out in an actual skirt no one says anything but a few of them are probably thinking stuff about gender. If you wear a skort, they are still thinking it and the wearer gets none of the comfort elements of the actual skirt. So all the disbenefits and none of the benefits. I have one that I bought by accident in a charity shop think it was a skirt but have rarely worn it and never in public.

Agreed Rivegauche, I can wear a skirt or shorts if I choose but hybrids, definitely not!
I don't see much difference between a skort and the trousers under skirt combination.
As for modesty, the current trend among some females for tiny shorts puts that way behind. (pun intended)
BTW I have no moral judgement to make about whatever anyone wears but aesthetically?
Steve.

[FranTastic444]

This is a well-timed post in as much as I raided Amazon for the first time last week for a selection of skorts with a view to using them for hiking, jogging and / or cycling.

I got two styles - one that was cut like golfing shorts with side pockets and loops for a belt (at the knee) and one that was more like football (soccer) shorts of old (well above the knee). I found each of my (potential) purchases comfortable to wear, but not yet sure which of them I will keep. I liked the stretch, lightweight fabric which would not wick sweat and would not double in weight if it was raining. Where I had an issue was with the fact that the inner shorts meant that I had to wear them slightly lower around the torso than I normally would. Being pretty snug fitting, this led to Visible Noodle Outline (VNO) - something that I am somewhat sensitive towards (despite the fact that there is clear VNO going on when I wear jeans or suit trousers). Not sure yet whether I will a) try cutting out inner shorts so I can wear the skort a little higher on the waist, b) keep my purchases and put up with the fact that VNO is not the end of the world, c) return said items. I'm planning to buy some skorts that are marketed for tennis / pickleball in the hope that they are not as snug fitting and that all vestiges of VNO will be banished

Back to the original post -

I think of skorts as shorts with a modesty apron or skirts with an integral modesty undergarment, applicable to both sexes but predominantly to the male anatomy, although currently marketed to the female gender.

This is a great way of looking at things. If I'd been offered this garment in the late 70's I'd have run a mile, no doubt. But I like to think that if I were a kid in this day and age, this would be something that I would embrace. I think it would be the perfect compromise in a school environment and adoption would resolve the issue of gender-specific uniforms.

[FranTastic444]

The skort seems to me to be the worst possible type of garment. I know that if you go out in an actual skirt no one says anything but a few of them are probably thinking stuff about gender. If you wear a skort, they are still thinking it and the wearer gets none of the comfort elements of the actual skirt. So all the disbenefits and none of the benefits. I have one that I bought by accident in a charity shop think it was a skirt but have rarely worn it and never in public.

Agreed Rivegauche, I can wear a skirt or shorts if I choose but hybrids, definitely not!
I don't see much difference between a skort and the trousers under skirt combination.

Steve.

Unless you are going Commando, both men and women are going to have bifurcated underwear as the layer closest to their skin when wearing a skirt, kilt, sarong etc. I think of the inner layer of a skort as being more akin to underwear than an outer garment for public sight.

[Stu]

I didn't use to see any point in skorts because why not just wear shorts? Or wear a skirt? But I have changed my mind and I will explain why.

Getting skirts accepted for boys (and men) has been extraordinarily difficult. This site has existed for many years and there have been countless examples of male skirts seen on fashion catwalks. So why can't I walk into my nearest menswear department and buy a skirt for a man or a boy? Why do girls in UK schools get a choice of skirts or trousers, but there is no corresponding choice for boys?

In the foreseeable future, mainstream suppliers are not going to design, market or purvey skirts for boys, or even genuinely unisex ones, and at least 95% of boys are certainly not going to wear them. However, the indicators are that they may be more receptive to wearing skorts that are designed and sold as unisex. The style of the skorts sold by UK retailers looks, at least from the front. like a skirt. Moving from trousers to skirts is a massive move for a boy, but from a unisex skort to a skirt is a short hop. I am aware that at least one major UK retailer is considering this possibility for the spring/summer 2024 schoolwear range. Skorts maybe the means of breaking what we used to call "trouser tyranny" and the gateway to skirt acceptance for males. And that means we will no longer have to wear items designed for the female body shape, or buy garments from the womenswear ranges.

[STEVIE]

Why do girls in UK schools get a choice of skirts or trousers, but there is no corresponding choice for boys?

Stu, the choice exists but society dictates that males are not allowed to make it and it is up to ourselves to point out the error of it's ways.
As I have previously said, the retailers will only produce skirts exclusively for men when they see profit from it.
As for a skort being unisex, most unstructured garments are anyway.
The major retailer you talk of has only the cost of labelling to factor in to the production so they are not exactly risking much.
The attendant hype though, could be invaluable.

I think of the inner layer of a skort as being more akin to underwear than an outer garment for public sight.

Hi Fran,
Point taken but I just cannot see the advantage of built in underwear.
For the record, I would never go commando either, eugh!
My take is that I keep my skirts short enough to be fun and long enough to be relaxed in.
Life is stressful enough without adding to it deliberately.
Steve.

[Stu]

Why do girls in UK schools get a choice of skirts or trousers, but there is no corresponding choice for boys?

Stu, the choice exists but society dictates that males are not allowed to make it and it is up to ourselves to point out the error of its ways.
As I have previously said, the retailers will only produce skirts exclusively for men when they see profit from it.
As for a skort being unisex, most unstructured garments are anyway. The major retailer you talk of has only the cost of labelling to factor in to the production so they are not exactly risking much. The attendant hype though, could be invaluable.

I agree that retailers will only produce skirts exclusively for men when they see profit from it and we're not there yet. My idea is that skorts could be one step towards achieving the change we want to see. OK, follow this line:

PROBLEM:

I can't buy skirts for men or even unisex skirts from my local store and I can't wear skirts without people thinking I am making some kind of statement about my gender identity. This is a major fashion taboo that we haven't yet broken.

PROGRESS:

Retailers become aware that there is a constant issue in the UK of boys being treated unfairly in terms of school uniform. This is particularly a problem in summer when the schools allow girls a choice of skirts or trousers while boys have to wear trousers regardless of how warm it is. Some schools allow shorts, but most don't. Some schools say that boys could wear skirts if they wanted top do that and a few have - but only for a single day and as a protest. Schools know that there are no suppliers of school skirts for boys, so telling boys to wear girls' clothes is hardly a satisfactory response. Tentative research indicates that hardly any boys would wear skirts even if allowed because they would be bullied or humiliated - or assumed to be trans. There are, however, indications that they may be a bit more open to skorts, as they are a hybrid garment rather than an established female-only garment. A girl could wear a skort and imagine it is a skirt with an extra part which makes it more secure. Boys, on the other hand, could imagine it to be just a unisex variant of shorts, which is what they have been wanting to wear - and which is accepted as school uniform. A skort is a perfect option for a trans child or one who is unsure about their gender, and our government has mandated schools should offer such alternatives.

The marketing of skorts does indeed involve re-labelling, but also stating on the website that this garment is suitable for both sexes. It can also be shown being worn by models of both sexes. If anyone questions a boy wearing the garment, he can just refer them to the website: "It's a skort, not a skirt - a style of shorts made for both boys as well as girls, so what's the issue?" If this becomes an established school uniform option for boys, it will inevitably be offered as sportswear for boys out of school, and could be worn socially or on holiday. Then skorts would gradually - and eventually - realise that older males, including adults, would see skorts as casual wear for both sexes in the same way jeans and tee-shirts and sweatshirts and sports shorts are.

If we can get to that stage, then the "males can never be seen in anything other than trousers" taboo will be broken, and it's only a short step before skirts also become available, and then I could call at my local supermarket and pick up a men's denim skirt with my shopping, or turn up at the office in a smart suit with a tailored skirt instead of trousers.

The AI website ClaudeAI insisted to me that skorts are a perfectly acceptable alternative for males to wear (look it up). We should make sure this garment is not appropriated as exclusively for girls and women as skirts and dresses have been, and we can only do that by challenging the status quo.

[Barleymower]

Sorry Stu, I would like to agree but I don't. The taboo that skirts are feminine needs to be broken. The only and I really mean the ONLY way is for men to go out there, stick two fingers up and wear it. I do and it's hard, it really is. The relentless sideways looks gets you down after a while. BUT I have seen progress and i have seen more men braving the looks and doing it.
Leaving it to school boys is never going to work. A boy going out there in a skort is going to get his ass kicked. Yes maybe it is a just pair shorts with a frilly edge but the kids are going to see a skirt and they are going to piss themselves and make fun of him.
What i have seen and I think it is gaining traction is long skirts. If a man wears a skirt at all he is best of in a kilt or a long skirt. There is something stylish about a long skirt.
I admire your tenacity and to the school theme but the real push needs to come from the fashion conscious 17-25 group.