When is a number not a number?

[crfriend]

.BEGIN rant

OK, I've had a bad shopping day. Not only am I a guy who eschews "shopping" as much as humanly possible, but I'm also a guy who puts importance in numbers -- especially numbers that purport to represent things like dimensions.

Question: "When does 14 not equal 14?" I suppose the "W" at the end of it should have been a clue. Sapphire and I picked up an exquisite purple plaid-on-the-bias skirt for me today that looks just great on me -- save that it's about two inches too big in the waist and I can't wear the thing without my feeling that it's going to "go south" at a moment's notice. It should be noted that I have tried on other size 14s and those fit quite nicely. I have lost weight recently, but not that much!

The aviation geek in me wants to label the "W" in 14W as "widebody", even though "I know better". Why in ruddy hell don't manufacturers simply state the measurement of the garment at the point it's designed to hang from! It's idiocy, I say!

In any event, the piece is too good-looking to take back (especially as 14W seems to be the smallest it comes in ) so I'll just have to take the garment in by about 2 inches.... This also means that I'll have to do the same thing with a special-order piece from the same supplier that's even more suited to my aesthetic.

ARRGH!!!!

.END rant

By the by, the skirt that Sapphire picked up, in the same pattern that I'm expecting sometime next week, should look wonderful on her. There'll be joy in this yet (I'll have my white double-collar blouse hopefully by late-week next).

[ChrisM]

lol! Yes Carl, it is well known that a size 14 body will often wear clothes designated anywhere from 10 to 16.

And if you think that's offensive, you should try buying underwear: A size 14 body often wears size 6 underpants - go figure!

Chris - also an engineer who feels numbers should have meaning

[Kris]

"When is a number not a number?"

if(x=x) returns false, the x is not a number (NAN)

But seriously, I feel your pain, as, I think, do most women.
For women's clothing sizes in general, size(x) ≠ size(x), so indeed clothing sizes are NANs.

Kris

[Since1982]

Yes Carl, I can see it clearly now, you ARE younger than me, you're still tilting against the windmills of established (different by manufacturer) measurements. Good luck!

[crfriend]

Chris and Kris -- Thanks for the injection of geek humour there. I had a good laugh with both of you.

Skip -- It's not that I'm tilting at windmills for no rational reason; it's that sizes should bloody well be uniform and mean something rather than nothing more than a vague hint.

In an ideal world -- like I'll ever see that -- a size would be a size: a statement of exact measurement. I don't much care if it's in inches, centimetres, or fractions-of-a-furlong, but should just simply state -- precisely -- the dimensions of the thing. And then there's the "two-by-four" which is really 1 1/2 x 3 1/2...

The heck with it. I think I'll have another beer. A good solid 12 fluid ounces (why do there have to be two different types of ounce? ) should do the mind well.

[r1g0r]

when is a number not a number?
WHEN IT IS A FREE MAN! (sorry, old "prisoner" fan)

the "W" indicated "women's" size, as versus juniors or misses. women's sizes are usually proportioned for the fuller-figured gals. ones with hips/butts/thighs. these are more likely to have a greater waist-to-hip ratio than other sizes.

lastly, regarding the issue of ounces meaning both weight (16oz = 1lb) and fluid volume (8oz = 1cup):
did you know that an ounce of gold is heavier than an ounce of lead?

TRUE!

gold (and other precious metals [and even more strangely, gunpowder]) are weighed using the troy ounce (31.1035 grams )—about 10 percent more than the avoirdupois ounce (28.3495 g) .

yeah. right. no wonder we can't find a decent-fitting skirt, without trying on every damn one in the store!

[crfriend]

when is a number not a number?
WHEN IT IS A FREE MAN! (sorry, old "prisoner" fan)

You don't need to apologise for that. I almost flagged it as a footnote in my original commentary, but figured I;d let somebody else do the work for me.

the "W" indicated "women's" size, as versus juniors or misses.

I discovered this morning that there'd been a labelling error, and what the paper tag stated was a 14W was stated as a 16W on the sewn-in tag. Bah! Back it goes for an exchange. Dear Sapphire has agreed to do that for me while I'm at work tomorrow.

gold (and other precious metals [and even more strangely, gunpowder]) are weighed using the troy ounce (31.1035 grams )

I don't find that odd at all, given that under certain circumstances gunpowder is worth its weight in gold.

There are also times where a pound isn't a pound, but you need a change in acceleration to notice the difference.

yeah. right. no wonder we can't find a decent-fitting skirt, without trying on every damn one in the store!

Yup.

[sapphire]

Loved the comments in this thread!

After a night of nightmares, this thread is wonderful therapy in helping me recover from the terrors of my imagination.

It turns out that not only is a number not a number but it really isn't.

Carl's wonderful purple bias plaid was externally labeled as a 14W but the internal garment tag noted that the skirt is a 16W. I'll go swap the "wrong" size for the "right" size tomorrow.

I've come to accept that "sies" are only approximations and have no accuracy whatsoever. As Kris states, "size" is NAN.

At the Dress Barn, I fit nicely into an 18W. At ColdwaterCreek, a 20 does nicely. Lane Bryant is all over the map and what fits me can be anything from a 16 to a 22. If I buy from the Susan Graver line at QVC, an XL usually fits correctly. However, while the Susan Graver clothes in XL fit, it takes a 2X from Coldwater Creek.

Back in high school I wore a size 10, which today is about a 6, but 15 years after high school was a 5 or 7. Today's size 10 is the size 14 of the 1960s (think Marilyn Monroe).

And fuggedaboud the "size" charts which, oh so carefully, list the measurements that purportedly go with the garments. With some manufacturers, going by the stated measurements will result in a garment that fits like a tent and with other manufacturers the garment will fit like a girdle, if you can even squeeze into it.

It's all trial by dressing room.

[r.m.anderson]

Sapphire:

You got that right ! ! !
Can not argue with the trusty tape measure and the fitting room proof.
That is what is so bothersome about mail order/catalog purchases.
Simply put no uniform standard and then the insult to injury of having
to mail back the incorrectly sized item to get another incorrectly sized
item. Not to bad if you can make the necessary (sewing) corrections
to salvage the item. But very very frustrating,

"Kilts are not exempt either"
rm

[flarob]

Through the years, the only thing that I can think of that has stayed the same are the sizes for Florsheim shoes. The last (form) that they are made on has remained constant. I can walk into any store and ask for style ,whatever, in an 11EEE and walk out without even trying them on. I know they will fit. Thing is, since I retired I rarely wear them anymore.

LOL - I'd probably wear them for - Jury Duty

[Bob]

This is not quite what happened to you, but is related...

Manufacturers have found that deflating the sizes printed on womens' clothes increases sales. So... if you have something that should maybe be a size 14 but you label it as size 12, then it will sell better. Knowing this, it's kind of a no-brainer what happens to the meaning of sizes over time.

As for the "W" vs. non-W stuff --- thanks for that tip. I'd always known there was a difference, but didn't know what. Since men generally do not have many curves (or we curve the "wrong way"), I'd imagine that the non-W sizes would probably fit most men better.

But who knows for sure... sizing on clothing intended for sale to women is voodoo.

[DALederle]

The "W" stands for "Women's Size" as opposed to junior or petitte. It is a wider size meant for "plus" sized women.
That's all!
If you normally wear a size 14 then you don't want a 14W. It would be to large.
You have to read labels and know what you're buying. Especially when in the women's wear departments. Nothing is simple there. Their shoe sizes differ from mens and don't even think of other garments, it'd make your head spin!
To bad we don't have those types of clothes on the men's side too! Then it would be simple. They'd measure waist in inches and length!
Simple as that!

Dennis A. Lederle

[nicothoe]

Phew! This probably explains why wondering around the thrift store was so confusing. Am I a medium or large o XL, a 14, 16 or 18? Everything I have found to date has been due to guess work and the correct alignment of the planets. There are no dressing rooms to try things on, so perhaps I should bring a tape measure with me or stick to items that have an elastic waist.

However, since I can pick up a few items for less than then price of a Starbucks' coffee, I'm unlikely to lament if it's a size too small. Unless, of course, it was really really cute!

Why we can't have clothing that specifies the actual measurements, even if it's a range in the case of some garments, I have no idea.

[Mipi]

Just take a peace of thread or thinner rope in the length of half of your waist and try it on the skirt you're looking.

[rick401r]

Phew! This probably explains why wondering around the thrift store was so confusing. Am I a medium or large o XL, a 14, 16 or 18? Everything I have found to date has been due to guess work and the correct alignment of the planets. There are no dressing rooms to try things on, so perhaps I should bring a tape measure with me or stick to items that have an elastic waist.

However, since I can pick up a few items for less than then price of a Starbucks' coffee, I'm unlikely to lament if it's a size too small. Unless, of course, it was really really cute!

Why we can't have clothing that specifies the actual measurements, even if it's a range in the case of some garments, I have no idea.

I guess I've gotten pretty good at "eyeballing" the right size. The last 2 skirts I got at the thrift shop fit perfectly. I kind of hold them up to my waist (without being too obvious). But you're right. I have skirts that range from 10 to 16 that all fit. I don't see how a woman can shop without trying everything on.