It's been a slice

[Pythos]

Well, due to financial problems, along with the last load of crap I have suffered here, for stating an opinion I am leaving skirt cafe.

With moving in with my mother the chances of wearing a skirt outside is just not there. Had guys actually pushed for the freedom to wear such, then this would be different. As I have stated, there are many guys who are not in my position. Who are not in a career choice that involves directly the Federal Government that can ruin a Pilot's life.

My skirts are going to be folded up, put in a box and stuffed away. My leggings and catsuits are known by my mother, but she does not approve, so they will probably hang unworn for a long time.

I wish people here would speak up, instead of PMing. I have had several PMs of support toward me, and one negative and full of ignorance. If the people who where supportive would have piped up, instead of staying in the shadows of PM, my position would not have been so weak.

Also due to the fact my mom will have to use this machine, I am going to have to remove all skirt related icons, and so on.

So that's the way it is.

May your endeavors be successful.

Good bye

[crfriend]

With moving in with my mother the chances of wearing a skirt outside is just not there. Had guys actually pushed for the freedom to wear such, then this would be different. As I have stated, there are many guys who are not in my position. Who are not in a career choice that involves directly the Federal Government that can ruin a Pilot's life.

Out of curiosity, where'd you get the notion that we don't push to get skirted garments accepted on guys? Most of us wear our kilts and skirts out and about, and do so proudly (else we'd be making the wrong statement). Too, many of us are in positions that could get rather fouled up -- especially in the current economic clime where it's an employer's market -- by wearing our chosen attire in inopportune circumstances. It's a case of "picking one's battles wisely" at the moment, and since in times like these The Man holds all the cards, it's usually best for the "little folks" to "go to ground" for a while.

My skirts are going to be folded up, put in a box and stuffed away. My leggings and catsuits are known by my mother, but she does not approve, so they will probably hang unworn for a long time.

That's your choice, and no matter how you choose to invoke it you'll have my support for that's what freedom is about. Do not, however, be needlessly bullied into a position you find untenable; all that'll come from that is resentment and bitterness.

wish people here would speak up, instead of PMing. I have had several PMs of support toward me, and one negative and full of ignorance. If the people who where supportive would have piped up, instead of staying in the shadows of PM, my position would not have been so weak.

If you were trying to use the forum as a club to further your own personal end-game that's unfortunate because nobody here actually knows what your ultimate end-game is. Too, there's more to the forum that only specific threads and topics; the overall thrust is remarkably positive when it comes to kilts and skirted rigs on guys, and this seems to be borne out by the experiences of those hereon who have posted their personal findings.

Also, due to the fact my mom will have to use this machine, I am going to have to remove all skirt related icons, and so on.

Two words: "Public Library". They have computers nowadays, not just those dusty things with flat sheets of something-or-other sandwiched in 'em.

So that's the way it is.

But you don't look like a walrus.... (OK, that dated me.)

May your endeavors be successful.

May yours be as well. Go in peace, and recall that if push comes to shove you have support in your sartorial choices here.

[Skirt Chaser]

Dear Pythos, from the way you describe your mother's attitudes toward you and your tastes I can see why moving back in with her would be so distressing. One thing to consider is alternate living arrangements if you haven't looked into that yet, particularly if you plan to pay your mother a small rent. Lots of people are feeling pinched so you might be able to find somebody willing to rent you a spare room for a reasonable rate, possibly even a coworker who has a kid in college. Just saw this tip in the most recent AARP magazine on ways to make more money so it will probably be in people's minds. Put a note up that says you are looking for a room on the corkboard at work. While it would cost more than your mother's place the mental freedom would more than make up for the extra money spent.

If you do stay with your mother though there will need to be a discussion of her role in your life, privacy for each of you (particularly if you want to bring a date home), and the understanding that her life will change too. I wish you both luck in getting through this stressful turn of events.

[r.m.anderson]

Pythos:
crfriend makes an excellent point. You do not have to resign yourself to be an outcast in a corner.
Make any and all use of the 'Public Library'. It is your tax paying $$$s that are being used to operate
these places. You can still keep in touch until the time changes for a more favorable situation at home.
Forums such as these are not classed as being unobjectionable sites on public computers. Just use
a fair amount of caution that someone with different views doesn't ease drop over your shoulder and
cause trouble. But at least use the system to your advantage.
I think that you could still use the computer at home (with Mom) but you will have to find out a way
to make it generic. After using the machine wipe out the history of threads and websites visited.
Perhaps one of our more computer savvy members could explain on how to do this so Mom unless she
is a geek will never know what you have been up to on the internet. Maybe with dual users it would be
possible to have your use of the machine hidden - password protected.
In any event come back and visit (frequently) and keep up with what is happening here.
Your participation in the forum has been valuable and differing points of view are always appreciated.
So you may march to a different drummer - "So What!" At the very most you are not a lamb lead to the
slaughter or a lemming leaping off a cliff.
Enjoyed your pictures and view points.
Please do not go away mad.
God Bless whatever your plans may be.
"KILT-ON"
r.m.anderson

[Inertia]

I wish people here would speak up, instead of PMing. I have had several PMs of support toward me, and one negative and full of ignorance. If the people who where supportive would have piped up, instead of staying in the shadows of PM, my position would not have been so weak.

Pythos, I'm sorry you're leaving; but I can't in all conscience just say, "So long, you poor hard-done-by boy", because frankly I think you're "position" is one of your own making, and you seem to be blaming others for it. It's your Mom's fault, because she's negative about you wearing skirts; it's the other cafe members' fault, because the don't agree with you; the members who did support you are all right, but they didn't speak up in your favour (although if you read your own threads, a lot of them *did* speak up in your favour in the past few days); people who don't support your "position" are clearly "full of ignorance". You've taken a lot of "crap for stating an opinion" and you're feeling very sorry for yourself.

Well, y'know, we all have our opinons; and to be honest, you seem to have more than most. "Most women are cowards"; "the people on this forum don't give enough criticism"; "stockings and garter certainly give a woman the look of a 'lady of the evening'"... These are quotes, or summarized quotes, from one Pythos, who certainly has opinions. I don't happen to agree with any of those opinions I've mentioned, and I suppose I could have taken offense at your strong implication that my choice of legwear makes me look like a prostitute! But the fact that I don't agree with you hasn't made me take off in a huff. So you don't agree with the cafe members who find your remarks about obese people offensive. So what? Why get so furious about what happens in cyberspace?

You seem to be a determined, strong-minded individual in many respects. Forgive me, but I have to say that you're not using it to your own best advantage. Why don't you just quit blaming Mom for your own insecurities, establish a separate user account on your Mom's computer that's password protected, and live your own bloody life? You're thirty-six, I believe you said. Four years away from forty. It's time to stop being the young arrogant kid who won't take responsibility for who he is, who blames his mother and his peers and "guys who have not pushed for freedom to wear skirts" and the FAA and all the world for the fact that he's nervous about showing the world who he really is. The members of this forum, if their opinion counts, seem to think you're a good thing to be. If who you are is worth being, then *be* who you are. Grow up.

I'd say the same thing to my own son, with just as much hope that he'd take it in the spirit in which it was meant: medicinal, not malicious; a reality check, not a barrage of contempt or a handful of insults.

With very best wishes for your future -- in spite of what you think of my stockings...

Jill

[r1g0r]

Well, due to financial problems, along with the last load of crap I have suffered here............................. Had guys actually pushed for the freedom to wear such, then this would be different. ...............................I wish people here would speak up, instead of PMing. I have had several PMs of support toward me, and one negative and full of ignorance. If the people who where supportive would have piped up, instead of staying in the shadows of PM, my position would not have been so weak...........................So that's the way it is.

May your endeavors be successful.

Good bye

well...

i wasn't going to respond to this diatribe, but i can't stand this whining sound coming from my computer every time i go to the cafe.

you can be pissed if you want, but don't blame others if your life is going into the toilet due to YOUR circumstances. these days, everybody is in a volatile industry. my jobs, solid as a rock since the 1980's, is in the same precarious situation as anybody else's.

your job situation is not the fault of anybody here.

many people are finding themselves in need of moving in with family or friends, due to the financial bite. you have to make sacrifices to ensure survival. that's been accepted for millennia. put your foot down with mom, strike a happy compromise, get back to life.

your home situation is not the fault of anybody here.

wearing skirts/hose/catsuits/whatever is a luxury that can't always be afforded. i'm lucky, in that my employer and the state i work in both have a solid policy about gender expression freedom. if this wasn't the case, my wardrobe would be drastically altered. this has nothing to do with the actions of efforts (or lack thereof) of anybody else, let alone the members of this forum.

your clothing situation is not the fault of anybody here.

grow a pair. keep your job, or find a different one that suits your personal choices. quit your whining. (news flash: nobody likes a whiny man. especially pretty ladies.) stop blaming THIS lot for your troubles. I WON'T STAND FOR IT, THEY'RE A DECENT AND OPEN BUNCH.

[Milfmog]

Pythos,

I'm not going to accuse you of whining, nor to berate you as spineless or hypocritical, tempting though that is. Life is not always easy or fair and sometimes we feel the need to lash out; the danger is that we may lash out at the wrong people. It's a human failing that I suspect we have all demonstrated at some point.

Contrary to what you might expect, I will miss you here and hope that it will not be long before your circumstances change for the better and you are able to return to the café. I have not always agreed with your opinions, nor with the way you have expressed them, however I honestly appreciate the different perspective you have brought to the forum on occasions and I thank you for that.

Perhaps, when you have time to sit and think, you will find that things are not as bleak as they feel now and that there is a way to harness your mothers love for you and your respect for her feelings in such a way that you can remain true to yourself. I sincerely hope that that is the case and that we will soon see you back here just a little older and wiser as a result of your tribulations.

Good luck and fare well,


Ian.

[Sarongman]

Pythos, You are intelligent and articulate (and often argumentative) but, with all due respect, I have to say that your parting? missive sounds like that from a petulant 16 year old and not one from a mature 36 year old who, in other circumstances, would be the father of children and with far greater worries than you already have. I would welcome your return to the fold when you have grown up somewhat and accepted that the world does not owe you a smooth ride. Remember, life wasn't meant to be easy.
It took me some days to come round to saying this as I did not want to incite a flame war, however, it would not let me rest until I got it off my chest.

[Pythos]

I have yet to actually completed the move. So I can still post. It also appears my concerns were unfounded.

Looking at some of your responses however, it is clear people have miss understood what I post.

For example the quoting out of context what I put about stockings. I personally do not like them. But the miss understanding is thinking I think they look like something prostitutes wear.

What I was conveying is that this is the image that is normally associated with prostitutes by the general public. The disco pants I have are also associated with prostitutes, as are corsets, super high heels, and so on. I don't like how...incomplete, garters and stockings appear compared to hose or tights. But I was not saying that they ARE the clothing of the prostitute, but there are those ignorant people who associate such with the world's oldest profession.

The "most women are cowards," was also taken out of context, as it was a statement in a post about people being cowards in general. I believe in that post (can't find it), I was also saying I was a coward for not wearing what I wanted.

I guess some didn't understand what I was trying to say about Pming. In MY opinion many of the supportive pms really could have done more good if they had been placed on the thread in question. Instead it was done in private. I did not post what the person Pm to me because a PM is private.

It would seem people here think I am leaving in a huff. Let me clarify, I am not. In fact I may not be leaving. I like this place, despite the antagonists, and those that take what I am saying out of context. I will be adding an account to my computer that will be for my mother, and my account will be password protected. (Should have thought of that before posting the "it's been a slice thread")

Also, it seems there are people here that think I am blaming everyone else for my situation. Financially, I do blame the outgoing band of idiots, and the well dressed, college educated nit wits than ran our country into the ground, I place no blame on myself or my fellow workers because we worked hard, were loyal to the company, and turned out the best work possible. Our reward? To have our shop flounder.
Clothing wise I blame no-one else BUT myself. Yes I have stated stuff along the lines of the inaction of guys wanting fashion freedom is what leads to the current state of fashion freedom for men and I have included myself in that inactive group. I do not help anything when I just wear what I like at home, or change out of an outfit I am wearing to step outside for a trip to the post office. I place my cowardice clearly ON MYSELF. I am the coward. I fear losing my stance as a competent aircraft pilot. It is a stupid and irrational fear but it is there. Milfmog, you are correct, I am spineless, I should stand up to my mother, and tell her to back the heck off. I am not even moved in yet and twice she has told me to get my hair cut. Hypocritical though? I don't understand that one. A whiner, oh yes I am. I would hope people here could offer some cogent advice other than "choose your battles". If I chose my battles, I would never get to wear what I like except at night, and only at "safe" locations. Which does nothing for the advancement of the idea.

Oh and my "end game" is for people to wear what they like, within reason, while presenting a good image, without being called names, have their sanity questioned, losing their job, and so on. Is that such a bad end game? At his rate it is nigh on impossible. I understand the concept of good image is open to interpretation, and can vary widely. Let me just say this, I don't really support the idea of hairy men wearing leotards. I am not all that supportive of think women wearing Mu mus. I personally cringe at the idea of a guy in leggings with his junk bulging out (that is my opinion there, understand that.) I do not want to be limited to having only kilts as the only option when it come to male skirts.

One reason my mother has told me to get my hair cut, is because I am working on becoming a flight instructor, and my long hair does not fit the image of a flight instructor. To a point she is correct. Once again the only reason she is correct is because everyone has bowed down to this image, and perpetuate it. It is a stereotype. What I plan on doing is getting a good reputation, and then "letting my hair out". I will also not get my hair cut until I am on the cusp of acquiring the certificate.

As far as my maturity is concerned, I am mature in some areas, and very immature in others. Sorry, but that is me. (notice I did not blame others for this).

I will state though, I have had people pm me with wishes that I would get beaten up, shot, even killed. I have kept quiet about them because the senders were showing clear signs of being mentally unstable, possibly from a lack of meds.

If I can get my computer secure from prying eyes, I will still participate. My initial post was made when things looked really bad. It looked like I would not only have to give up my clothing, but also, my fancy rats, and my chinchillas due to the small size of my old room, and my mom's distaste of the rats, once again due to ignorance on her part. But things have worked out, and the rats turned out to be far smaller and cuter than the creatures she was thinking of when I said rats.

So if all goes well, I shall still be a participant. I move this Saturday

[Uncle Al]

Pythos;

I'm speaking from the point of a father, family man and friend as I make this post.

I'm sorry to hear of your situation, but I wish you well in your endeavors.
I fully understand you predicament about 'image' in aviation.
Been there-Done that. Yes, I did 'conform' to the image but
by the time I retired from the airlines, our office was very much
more 'liberal' about the employees attire. We were not 'out-in-
the-public' but in a closed office building. During the last 5-6 years
that I was there, Kilts were accepted on men. (Not worn 'comando')

In some ways, you sound a bit like my oldest son. But he has changed
and mellowed a bit, especially when he became a father himself.
(Second grandchild is due 1st part of May.)
Yes, his mother still tries to get him doing things 'her way', but he
is better at getting 'mom' off his back. I remind her that she is Grandma,
and to let things be. I'm Paw-Paw, and I accept that--I help when
asked but don't intentionally get involved in their lives. (Have enough
trouble trying to keep Grandma in line.)

As you say, men must go with confidence. I feel you include yourself
in this statement. I also detect you are loosing your confidence with
the impending move as well as becoming a CFI. In reality, the 'feds' don't
really care how you're dressed during your CFI test. They want to know
that you know what you're doing, and talking about valid instructional information.
Some of the 'examiners' can be a pain in the chair. I hope you do not
get an examiner like that. But, if you can pass their exam, you should
be able to handle ANY situation you may encounter.

By the sound of your post, I hope you have not lost your employment.
Things are tight---How well I know---But watch your 'doors'. Even if
one closes on you, another will open and put you in a better financial position.
The new 'door' may be hard to see, it may require you to make a major
move to another part of the country. This happened to me in 1975.
I wasn't sure what would happen, but all has worked out well.

Since 'things' have become 'tight' for you, this will affect your confidence.
This will also spread to other areas of your life. In this case, PLEASE,
put these 'items' in seperate 'boxes'. Keep them seperate from each other.
I almost ruined my family because I could/would not seperate business
from home & family. Once I did seperate them, both my family--and
business--life became much better.
This is one of the 'areas' where I 'grew-up'.
I did conform to the 'business world attire', but I was able to see the 'rules' ease up,
and to help ease the use of kilts at the work place.

The main thing is to use 'common sense' and wear what is best for the job
you are doing. Welding, sharp tools, climbing into/out of a small cockpit
requires body protection and modesty. Does a kilt/skirt work in this type
of environment? I don't think so. I also feel that you're letting your fear of the 'unknown',
cloud your ability to use your common sense. Step back, take a deep breath,
and re-evaluate what you're looking at, and the options available to you.
You may find 'that extra door' was hidden in 'your clouds'. Now that
the 'clouds' are gone, you can see things more clearly.

Remember-this is comming from a father and a friend.
My we always be friends!

Uncle Al
Duncanville, TX

[Monster Pete]

The main thing is to use 'common sense' and wear what is best for the job
you are doing. Welding, sharp tools, climbing into/out of a small cockpit
requires body protection and modesty. Does a kilt/skirt work in this type
of environment? I don't think so.

I have to say I agree with that. While its probably quite possible to climb into and out of a cessna without much difficulty, sods law will be that you end up instructing on a low-wing aircraft at some point. From my experience, its also quite a bit windier out in the open at your average airfield...

Best Wishes

Monster

[Pythos]

Thank you Uncle Al, for that thoughtful response.

You are correct about a loss in confidence, my confidence has waned a whole lot. I did lose my job, the shop I worked at and loved, is pretty much history. Business there just dried up in less than a week, and we couldn't take that. This is what prompted me getting out of maintenance and into instructing, it is more along the lines I want to do with my career. It is no longer a unique thing for prospective captains to have, it is now pretty much required.

As far as my clothing choices are concerned, aside from a rare wearing of leggings for flying, I keep it separate from the rest of my life. It's funny, now that I am not turning wrenches on planes every day, I am getting the bug to work on my Mustang.

You also seem to have a much better grasp of my fear when it come to my mom, than others here. You almost described the situation to a T. If I did not love my mom as I did, I wouldn't give a fig what she thought. But that is not the case. She has raised me, stayed with my dad when he was alive, and provided my whole life. She didn't get a divorce, though there were ample times it should have happened, she never used drugs, or partied hard. But a thing she did do, and this was probably for my best, is instill fear of what others think into me. She also compared me to her friend's kids (most of whom turned out real rotters), which hurt. At first she did not support my flying. She thought it was a waste of time, and instead I should get a college degree like my brother. When I got close to obtaining the commercial certificate, her tune changed a little.

Understand, I am not blaming her for my failures. I am pointing out what I have had to deal with. I am sure some of you have dealt with similar, but your circumstances may be different. This is what I am moving back into after 10 years on my own. For example, her reaction and questions about the collection of hats I have. "why do you have that?" "That's a very silly looking hat" "You have too many hats" "Why do you have so many?" I didn't understand why I was getting the third degree about my hats of all things. My leggings I could see...kinda. But my hats? (all my hats are "male" design, and range from Barret, golfers hat, British style driving cap, to a Russian Sub commander's fur hat, like the one Sean Connery wore in Hunt for Red October)

What I don't understand is by this point of knowing my sister in law, I would think my mom would be less restrictive when it comes to my clothing. My sister in law likes my style, skirts included. She loved the chenongsam. Now either she is just saying this to my face, and saying something else to mom to avoid conflict, or my mom is just stubborn.

[Skirt Chaser]

I'm glad to know things aren't as bleak as they seemed at first. Giving up your pets was one thing among so many changes that understandably were taking a cumulative toll on you, Pythos. Reading your mom even knocks a pretty neat array of hats (and relatively normal ones at that, mine are mostly gaudy and goofy) makes it sound like she reflexively shys away from anything that stands out. It helps that you recognize her insecurities for what they are rather than believing she is right about the need to conform.

[Sarongman]

Pythos, I am beginning to see what you have had to ( and continue to ) put up with. It reminds me of Barry Humphries who is now 75 and had to put up with a loving but highly controlling mother who was obsessed with "niceness". Barry was, and still is. a maverick with a wicked sense of humour and has lampooned Australia's sacred cows. His most well known stage personas is "Dame Edna Everage" who was a direct take on his mother. Actually, he said that, as Dame Edna was totally ignorant on all subjects, she could pontificate authoritatively on all subjects just like George W!

I wish you well and the patience and fortitude to see this through to it's conclusion, and there will be a conclusion for the better. Note to self Take off Pollyanna hat, it looks stupid!

[Pythos]

I have never thought well of my mother's conformists ways. I think it limits herself, and me. However when under the same roof of the person holding the cards, bucking can cause problems. She can be quite creative, but most of the time she shys away. My brother is very status quo, and is in the stock market. This is very upper class, which my mom used to strive to be (drove my dad crazy, and made him a hermit really). My being a mechanic was at first a great disappointment, because people in those careers were "low brow". Thankfully she has dropped this opinion.

However her conformist ways led to me going to school day in and day out in preppy clothes I loathed. I liked the punk and goth styles, and even the rocker, but mom would have none of that. That's why I consider myself a Pseudo Goth, because I never truly adopted that style, just aspects of it.