Perception!

[Departed Member]

I'm curious as to whether your urologist also wears skirts. If not perhaps you would do well to persuade him to lead by example. sasq

Way too old, and set in his ways - or so he says!

[Inertia]

Gentlemen,

I've been a member of this board for quite some time now; I enjoy the delightfully civilized discussions you have, and appreciate your willingness to have a female like myself participate. I will now say something controversial, regarding statements made in this thread, not out of any desire to sow the zephyr and reap the whirlwind, but because I am genuinely curious about a certain matter:

It has been stated that women have won "the right" to wear trousers, in such a way as to imply that men don't have "the right" to wear skirts. I would put it to you that as the members of this board all live in free countries (as far as I know), you *all* have "the right" to wear skirts. You have the right to wear anything you dashed well please, as long as it covers all the things you might get arrested for exposing. Legally speaking we all have "fashion freedom", because you chaps can wear skirts, or wear kilts, or wear a Barney the Dinosaur costume if you really wanted to for some demented reason, and no one would put any of you in jail for it. Nearly all the comments I've read about you gentlemen's skirted outings end with, "And nobody said anything, except to give me compliments." While I realize that a few of you might have had some heckling in your time, nobody here *doesn't* have "the right" to wear a skirt.

Here you are, all admirable individualists -- and I admire you all -- wearing skirts because you want to, in the face of, well, a bunch of people who usually wear something else. And so I ask you this question: Those of you who claim to desire Fashion Freedom for all men... what do you really want? Are you longing for... conformity?

<evil grin>

Cheers, and I'm ducking in advance as you all throw your lattes at me...

Inertia

[Sarongman]

Whoopee! Atta girl. Exactly, precisely and, of course beautifully put. I think many here are closet conformists and not entirely au fait with the funny looks we sometimes, though rarely, get and are hankering for that safety in numbers that makes us blend with the scenery. Let's face it, as the pioneers that we are, we've gotta get used to it or return to dull conformity- which is not freedom.

[Milfmog]

Thank you for that thought Inertia*.

Those of you who claim to desire Fashion Freedom for all men... what do you really want? Are you longing for... conformity?

I'll not presume to speak for anyone else, and I don't believe that I've ever expressed a desire for fashion freedom, but I do rather like the idea of more men wearing skirts so that I don't feel quite so stuck out on a visual limb. In that sense, yes I do yearn for conformity, but over a far wider range than the blue jeans / chinos / suit that forms the defacto set of options for 99% of western men.

Make no mistake about it, I enjoy the attention sometimes (despite being inherently quite an introverted character), but I'd also like to be able to go out in a wider range of garments with my wife, friends etc without feeling that by associating with me they are being put in the spotlight. At present I will generally choose (my choice!) to tone down my clothing (more often than not a kilt rather than a skirt and definitely no mini skirts) if I'm out with people who are not totally comfortable with the attention that a guy in a skirt can generate. Does that make me a closet conformist? I don't know, I'll let you decide.

Cheers, and I'm ducking in advance as you all throw your lattes at me...

Inertia

I do hope you'll allow me to buy you a latte (to drink instead of wearing) as I certainly have no desire to throw anything at you

Have fun,


Ian.


* A name would be nice, if you'd like to share it with us, it just makes people seem more real and the communication is a little more "human" as a result.

[Since1982]

Those of you who claim to desire Fashion Freedom for all men... what do you really want? Are you longing for... conformity?

I think I might have a different perspective than you do, Inertia, I'm 67 and lived thru that time when a woman in trousers was "in the south" often run out of town or beat up by "normal" dress wearing women. Women DID have to fight for the "right" to wear what they pleased. And so do we. Fortunately, the ones that went before us, like Wild Bill or Mary Jane Boy, made it much easier for men to wear a simple skirt or any kilt in public in this century. Movies (however un-historic they were) helped a lot, to put forth the idea of masculinity not being lost along with trousers when a man donned a kilt or skirt (old English or Vikings wore leather skirts) or a pareo (movies like "South Pacific"). Unfortunately tho, there are still places where a skirted man takes his life in his hands if he goes there at the wrong times. (bars, lounges, country western clubs etc. Drunks can and will attack anything they (in their skewed alcohol sodden brains)thinks is "different"..

I understand how folks that have never had to contend with the 50's and 60's mental states could believe that men (in the West) have all the same hard won "rights" that women have earned. I'd like to believe that too. I've earned my right to wear what I please where I live, I'm not sure I'd have that right in other places even yet.

I'm not interested in Fashion Freedom for men. To me, that means looking like a pretend woman. I'm not at all interested in that. I just wish to wear the same kind of lower body covering that my Viking ancestors wore, a skirt. I, personally, don't care about men's fashion, I care about men's comfort. I know and enjoy the comfort of skirt wearing. I never intend going back to "trousered life"..

[Inertia]

Make no mistake about it, I enjoy the attention sometimes (despite being inherently quite an introverted character), but I'd also like to be able to go out in a wider range of garments with my wife, friends etc without feeling that by associating with me they are being put in the spotlight. At present I will generally choose (my choice!) to tone down my clothing (more often than not a kilt rather than a skirt and definitely no mini skirts) if I'm out with people who are not totally comfortable with the attention that a guy in a skirt can generate. Does that make me a closet conformist? I don't know, I'll let you decide.

Now there's something I hadn't considered -- the effect on your tribe/family/friends, if they're not as comfortable with your skirt-wearing, and they're out in public with you. As Sarongman says, you gentlemen are certainly pioneers, and I suppose that means you must sometimes take your loved ones into the wilderness with you. In sparing them discomfort, I don't think you're being a conformist; I think you're being courteous and thoughtful.

[/quote="Milfmog"]
I do hope you'll allow me to buy you a latte (to drink instead of wearing) as I certainly have no desire to throw anything at you [/quote]

Now that's a handsome offer, Sir! I'm most grateful (and also grateful not to have to dodge flying coffee).

Cheers,

Jill

[Milfmog]

Hi Jill (nice to have a name, thank you),

Now there's something I hadn't considered -- the effect on your tribe/family/friends, if they're not as comfortable with your skirt-wearing, and they're out in public with you. As Sarongman says, you gentlemen are certainly pioneers, and I suppose that means you must sometimes take your loved ones into the wilderness with you. In sparing them discomfort, I don't think you're being a conformist; I think you're being courteous and thoughtful.

My wife is pretty comfortable with my fashion choices at home but worries when I get sidelong glances. I had a comment at the local supermarket recently that was reported back to me by a member of staff who a customer had apparently told "I've just seen a man dressed as a woman and he's got a beard..."

I found that amusing but Mrs M would be concerned about the idea that I was perceived as a man dressed as a woman, particularly as I was wearing a kilt at the time; how much stronger would that perception be had I been in a skirt?

I went to a hospital yesterday to collect a new tooth brace for my son wearing a long black skirt and a black short sleeved button fronted shirt (as pictured in the second post here). I replaced the jacket with a lightweight rain jacket of similar length as it was a ten minute walk from the car in drizzly, grey conditions. On reaching the dental department I was recognised instantly by the receptionist (a woman of around 50) despite only having been there twice before (most recently four months ago). She greeted me with a cheerful (and much appreciated) "I hoped it would be you who came to collect it; I do like to see people who are prepared to dress a little differently and you do it so well."

None of the hundred or so other people I walked past said a word and few even glanced at me, but it was a shame my wife was not there to here that comment.

Have fun,


Ian.

[SkirtedViking]

In my country, I live in Eastern Europe - women wear trousers,flat shoes with laces in man's style,ties,jackets and virtually everything that a man wears with NO negative comments at all!They go to work like that,they are not considered freaks,crossdressers, lessbians and so on and certainly are not the center of attention in a pejorative way. I want the same for males - wear whatever I like not because it is masculine or feminine but just because it is my style and like that - to wear skirts,dresses,heels, tops and so on, but with noone questioning my sexual orientation,masculinity or whatever - that is what fashion freedom means for me!

[jamie001]

Amen!

I couldn't have stated it better.

Jamie
Fashion Freedom for Men!!

In my country, I live in Eastern Europe - women wear trousers,flat shoes with laces in man's style,ties,jackets and virtually everything that a man wears with NO negative comments at all!They go to work like that,they are not considered freaks,crossdressers, lessbians and so on and certainly are not the center of attention in a pejorative way. I want the same for males - wear whatever I like not because it is masculine or feminine but just because it is my style and like that - to wear skirts,dresses,heels, tops and so on, but with noone questioning my sexual orientation,masculinity or whatever - that is what fashion freedom means for me!

[DALederle]

It is still about perception!
Women wearing masculine styled clothing and even looking manly is perceived in our western cultures as being positive. Its not just okay but it is totally accepted.
Men in skirts is and has been the sublect of jokes and redicule.
Movies like Braveheart and Gladiator, while showing men in kilts or tunics may help a little bit the number of positive images of men are far too few and do not out weigh the negative jokes about men in skirts. This leaves an impression that its okay to laugh at the idea of a man in a skirt.
Who would dare, upon seeing a women in complete "man drag" of suit and tie and oxford dare start laughing at her.
Keep in mind that it is laws that were on the books as late as 1890s that women were flogged in public for wearing pants.
So women did have to fight for their rights at a time when men didn't need too.
See we never saw any rights we needed to win.
Dennis

[crfriend]

It is still about perception!
Women wearing masculine styled clothing and even looking manly is perceived in our western cultures as being positive. Its not just okay but it is totally accepted.

It hasn't always been so; even as late as the 1970s there was still considerable mirth about the "Imitation Man" look. The fact that women were able to ignore the ridicule and jokes points up that they have more intestinal fortitude than their male counterparts who retreated wholesale into the drab confines of the box they're in today.

Men in skirts is and has been the sublect of jokes and redicule.

And it will continue to be so until there's a critical mass of men who are wiling to put up with the occasional taunt and who will set good examples for others that are worthy of emulation. If one can't deal with the occasional jab, then perhaps his hide isn't thick enough to wear a skirt. Here's where the "art of skirtsmanship" comes in -- one has to be the embodiment of that confident stylish person that's worthy of emulation; yes, the "price of admission" can be a bit high, but it's well worth it (and when you don't feel "up to it", there are still trousers).

This leaves an impression that its okay to laugh at the idea of a man in a skirt.
Who would dare, upon seeing a women in complete "man drag" of suit and tie and oxford dare start laughing at her.

It's quite alright to laugh at what one wants. I don't happen to find women dressed up in men's togs to be particularly attractive, so my reaction is to ignore them. If you want to laugh, go ahead, but bear in mind that it's politically incorrect to do so.

So women did have to fight for their rights at a time when men didn't need too.
See we never saw any rights we needed to win.

Since men held the majority of power, it never occurred to most men that they needed to fight for "the right" to wear something other than the customary uniform. Likely, it still doesn't, and won't until there are clear and compelling reasons to do so.

I wish folks would stop painting this "doom and gloom" picture, because it's not that bad. I go out routinely wearing skirted rigs and very seldom accumulate anything other than good comments and an occasional interesting conversation. At the end of the day, it's just a piece of cloth, and if we're not comfortable in it then we'd better put something else on because that discomfort will show as nervousness (or worse) in the eye of the beholder.

[AMM]

The fact that women were able to ignore the ridicule and jokes points up that they have more intestinal fortitude than their male counterparts who retreated wholesale into the drab confines of the box they're in today.

On the issue of men "...retreat[ing] into the drab confines of the box they're in today," I saw a blog entry that talks about a "reality" TV show that (according to the blogger) really shows the kind of box so many men are stuck in: Tool Academics and Their Plaintive Cry for Feminism (Even If They Don't Know It). Particularly interesting were things like:

Even after the tools [=male subjects of the show] know the women will be shown this stuff (and, hello, they're on a TV show, so they'd see it eventually someday anyway), they continue to do it. It's like a compulsion; it's the only way they know how to interact with one another. And when confronted by the women in therapy sessions, they get all defensive and bombastic and chest-beatery, which, of course, is the worst thing you can do in a relationship.

During the partnered challenges (as the bed assembly, above), the guys are endlessly vacillating between: 1.) trying to look cool and impress the other guys; and 2.) trying to focus on their female partners and give them what they need. Needless to say, their divergent attention results in failures of varying degree. But they can't publicly give or accept love/trust/affection, as long as there are other men around who might call them a pussy for it.

(Italics mine.)

As long as most men are obsessed with getting approval from other men, including from -- or especially from -- the biggest jerks, they're not going to be able to take effective action to save their relationships or even their lives. Forget about taking such risks over something as unimportant as clothing.

Disclaimer: I haven't seen the show and, given that it's on cable, I'm not likely to.

[Inertia]

My wife is pretty comfortable with my fashion choices at home but worries when I get sidelong glances. I had a comment at the local supermarket recently that was reported back to me by a member of staff who a customer had apparently told "I've just seen a man dressed as a woman and he's got a beard..."

I found that amusing but Mrs M would be concerned about the idea that I was perceived as a man dressed as a woman, particularly as I was wearing a kilt at the time; how much stronger would that perception be had I been in a skirt?

Hi, Ian!

I must say, I think the outfit you've got on in that picture suits you tremendously, and you don't look the least bit like you're trying to dress as a woman -- never mind if you'd been wearing a *kilt*, for heaven's sakes! The woman in the supermarket who made that comment probably needs her paradigm changed (not to mention her observational faculties steam-cleaned and re-blocked). I can see how your wife might find it a trifle disconcerting; then again, she might just laugh, and say, "What, hasn't she ever seen a pipe band in full dress before? Does she think all those Scotsmen are transvestites?"

Cheers,

Jill

[Pythos]

Jill,

The biggest fear I have when it comes to my personal style is someone questioning my mental facilities and squawking to the FAA, or my job, and ruining my life. Aviation is a very macho, and frankly overly conservative world, that needs to pay more attention to the state of the planes than what the pilot or mechanic choose to wear.

I would also like to wear a skirted outfit to a job interview, and not have it negatively affect my hiring chances.

The gender protection laws do not include clothing, and I live in a right to work state.

Frankly I think there is major legal loophole in this though. If a boss fires someone because of the clothing the employee wears on his own time, because the boss thinks that the employee is gay, I would think that despite clothing choices are not protected by anti-discrimination laws, Gender, or orientation is. So If the reason a person was fired was due to perceived notions, then legally the employer was in violation. For some reason this does not work how ever.

I would also like to wear a skirt with hose, and not run the risk of getting beaten up BECAUSE of my chosen attire. Another thing is most women are also cowards, and see a guy wearing a skirt, and immediately run to the "hunk" or some other neanderthal when it comes to dating material.

[Milfmog]

I would also like to wear a skirt with hose, and not run the risk of getting beaten up BECAUSE of my chosen attire.

How many times has this happened? Has anyone here got any experience of people being beaten up for wearing a skirt or hose? Stop and think how many times folks here have worn skirt and hose and not been beaten up... I really have trouble believing that there is any real risk in this, it's just one of those things we worry about (myself included on occasion) rather like the mad axeman or the bogeyman hiding under the bed.

Another thing is most women are also cowards, and see a guy wearing a skirt, and immediately run to the "hunk" or some other neanderthal when it comes to dating material.

A rather glib generalisation there Pythos; cowards? Are you sure they are not doing what most humans do when confronted by the unfamiliar; seeking out the comfort of familiarity? Lets face it, we all react to unfamiliar sights, why should others be different? And anyway, the people (male or female) you want to get to know are the ones with interesting minds, they will find you if you are interesting enough to be worth the effort...

Have fun,


Ian.