Perception!

[DALederle]

Based on what have you done for me lately, men wearing skirts, kilts or even dresses have an uphill battle because there's not enough men wearing those garments to change the cultural perception of what men wear.
It has been the constant or nearly constant sight of women wearing pants, which began with WWII, that has allowed our perception of women wearing pants to become and every day standard in the western cultures of the world. And even the eastern cultures are slowly swinging to the concept of pants for everyone.
The sad part is that no one is questioning this in anyway.
Hillary spends all her time in pants suits and no one cares. Now she's going to represent us to the world and it will be in a pair of pants. The only woman to appear in skirts all the time, Sarah Pallin, got crucidied by the new pretorian guard(i.e.the mass media).
In order for men to be accepted wearing whatever we want we need to be seen in publilc wearing????????????????????????? Fill in the blanks according to what you want to wear.
The question is how to do this.
The skirted men's march a few years ago didn't really make a difference.
Even the million man march a few year back didn't get a million men out. More people attended this last innaguration then at the million man march.
So what's the answer?
The more we're seen out the easier it becomes to go out.
But can it be a group thing or do we each have to do it for ourselves one man at a time?
I have the feeling it will have to be each of us alone.
Dennis A. Lederle

[AMM]

(Oscar here, popping out of his trash can, charging into battle with his mop-bucket helmet, garbage-can-lid shield, and broom-handle lance....)

OK, I think you're saying you want to somehow make skirts, kilts, dresses, etc., more acceptable for men.

Do you really mean it? Or do you just want to whine and blame at random?

If you really mean it, then, for starters, you'll have to drop stuff like

...It has been the constant or nearly constant sight of women wearing pants, which began with WWII, that has allowed our perception of women wearing pants to become and every day standard in the western cultures of the world. And even the eastern cultures are slowly swinging to the concept of pants for everyone.

For one thing, why are women suddenly to blame for what men choose to do? It's not women who are making you afraid to walk out the door in your kilt or your miniskirt and pantyhose. Women have, at great cost, achieved the freedom to dress as they wish, and now you're blaming them for your real or imagined lack of freedom to do the same? Do you realize, you've just offended half the human race, including many of your natural allies?

For another, this change has no correlation with men's freedom to wear stuff other than trousers. If anything, the opposite. I can assure you that back in the days when women were required to wear skirts/dresses (1950's, 1960's), it was far less acceptable for men to do much of anything out of the ordinary. Men got beaten up for having hair down over their collar. Wearing a skirt would have gotten you arrested in many places. Even kilts could be a problem if you ran into someone sufficiently narrow-minded. (Remember Stonewall?)

In order for men to be accepted wearing whatever we want we need to be seen in publilc wearing????????????????????????? Fill in the blanks according to what you want to wear.

This is the first place where you make any sense.

The skirted men's march a few years ago didn't really make a difference.
Even the million man march a few year back didn't get a million men out. More people attended this last inauguration then at the million man march.
So what's the answer?

For starters, how about giving up the fantasy that it's going to be easy? What happened in Washington on Tuesday was the result of the struggle by millions of people over 3 and a half centuries. A lot of people dedicated and sacrificed their lives to bring us to this point. And you expect a few hundred guys in their spare time to make a significant social change happen from scratch within your lifetime?

Actually, I think it's a major social change that I can go to my neighborhood grocery store, or do my laundry in the apartment laundry room, or take the train and subway, while wearing a skirt, and nobody who sees me even mentions it. Nobody threatens me, people treat me like a normal human being, the cop on the corner, instead of arresting me, stops traffic so I can cross the street. And it's not just skirts. People with bright purple Mohawk haircuts walk up and down the street with impunity. Gay men live together and go out openly as couples, even holding hands, and nobody bothers them. Unimaginable 40-50 years ago.

It would be nice if I saw more men in skirts or even kilts, but you can't have everything. I can't control what other men wear. I wouldn't even want to. If they want to wear trousers, let them. If they really want to wear skirts, but are afraid to try, well, I try to offer an example that it's possible, but ultimately, it's their choice and they are the ones that have to deal with the consequences, whatever they are.

And ultimately, that's what freedom (fashion or otherwise) is about.

(OK, time to crawl back into my trash can.)

[Sasquatch]

I agree some of Dennis' conclusions, and it's a point I've made before. This is largely an individual journey. I just don't know if there is a multitude of closeted (mentally) men out there who would like to be expressing themselves differently from the social norm. We can't count on that so we need to support each other on our individual trips fighting to paddle upstream against the current. To use an analogy from my misspent youth (I can't remember a couple years in the mid-70s) every time you walk out the door skirted, it's like doing a hit of acid ; you've done it before and enjoyed it, but each trip is different. It could be amazing or it could be a horrific bummer. And unless you're in a Dead concert , you're on your own with no one to relate to other than a close circle of friends...like we have here. But I digress (flashback over ). I think you just have to do what's right for yourself and trust that you are changing the world even if you likely won't live to see the fruits of your choices. Most social movements have happened that way. Individuals doing what they are called to do...because they needed to do it for themselves. Maybe over time those branded "weirdos" will be looked on as pioneers.

sasq

[DALederle]

I have worn skirts in public for years now. Skirts and kilts, both. And know one has ever stepped up and told me I couldn't. And I do wear a kilt or skirt as often as I can. Keeping certain, practicle, weather conditions in mind. I'm not getting frostbite (or worse) under neath my skirted areas.
But my point in my original post is that it took years and repeatedly doing that one thing, wearing pants, for women to gain the freedoms they have. I'm not blaming them for what men don't have. But their gaining the right to wear pants was also aided by a mass media. Look at some of the old movies, especially westerns and you have women wearing blue jeans in at least one scene in just about every movie. Also teen girl, in the 1950s rock-n-roll films wearing their jeansm usually rolled up.
If advertising doesn't work why do we have have television networks.
The new pratorian guard, the mass media, sells us stuff all the time by just showing us things over and over again until we take them for granted. Talk to any woman today about pants on women and they will tell you "of course, it's our right" to wear pants.
Yes they are right.
But that right didn't happen over night it came about over the years, begining back in the early days of the movie studios as the image of women wearing pants was little by little shown to us on the silver screen. By the time WWII came around the culture had been softened up enough to accept women putting on their husbands and fathers clothes and going to work in factories. Later the women wanted to keep that which they had done during the war.
Women can wear pants because they do wear pants.
Some male skirt wearers don't feel as confident about themselves as others.
It would be just easier on all of us if our society accepted men being able to wear whatever they want to wear the way women do today.
But that is and always has been an individual choice.
Dennis A. Lederle

[Skirt Chaser]

I think there is a lot to be said for the power of an individual to influence the perceptions of the people around them. While it would make things easier if lots of men wore skirts regularly, you don't need that to happen to show a man in a skirt is no big deal. As Sasq mentioned, for all we know most men might have no interest in adding options to their wardrobe so waiting for some critical mass would be fruitless. Be visible in your town and people will come to see that Dennis is a regular guy that also happens to wear skirts.

The nice thing is that you aren't alone when you can sit at a computer and can interact with other skirted men no matter their location. It is not the same thing as having a community of skirted men in your neighborhood but it sure is an improvement over the past. In fact, I think the SkirtCafe and similar online presences bring better visibility to clothing choices for me than publicly skirted men. Other than Cafe meets I have not seen a single man in a skirt other than kilts and even that is a rarity. Even if you multiplied the number of skirted men in the world by 1000 it is still unlikely the average person would encounter a skirted man so it is a good thing guys here aren't waiting for some critical mass before venturing about the world skirted.

[Since1982]

DALederle wrote:
The skirted men's march a few years ago didn't really make a difference.
Even the million man march a few year back didn't get a million men out. More people attended this last inauguration then at the million man march.

A little historical pre-conception here is probably bad. I wasn't AT the million skirted man march as it happened before I knew Tom's Cafe existed and joined it, BUT I saw all the pictures taken at it and there not only wasn't a million skirted men there, there wasn't a hundred skirted men there. Maybe there was 50. Maybe not. A couple of them really didn't help the cause by showing up in full or partial drag but fortunately there were only 2 like that. One was bright orange in color, bringing attention to everyone. Another problem was that at the "Million SKIRTED Men March" there were only a very few actual skirts. Lots and lots of kilts tho. The pictures portrayed a lot of fun was had by everyone there so that's a good thing.

Tom Manuel, who started Tom's Cafe up, to my knowledge, was never photographed in a skirt. He was an avid kilt wearer. One of the earliest members, a current member of X Marks the Scot, "Hamish" actually left this site when too many skirted men and men with other fashion interests started joining. Now there's talk of the site breaking up into smaller pieces. I hope it doesn't. SkirtCafe does have it's place in the world and I hope Bob keeps it going.

[crfriend]

[...] I wasn't AT the million skirted man march as it happened before I knew Tom's Cafe existed and joined it, BUT I saw all the pictures taken at it and there not only wasn't a million skirted men there, there wasn't a hundred skirted men there.

Note: My observations in this case are based on various pictures that have shown up on the Internet and the videos that were shot at the event.

It's true that what was billed as the "Million Skirted Man March" drew but a modest handful -- at most a couple dozen individuals -- and these pioneers were gathered to attend the New York exhibition of the "Men In Skirts" version of what had previously been shown at the Victoria and Albert Museum in London. When this happened was a different time than what we have now; things have "loosened up" since then, and (more recently) "tightened" back up as societal fear sets in with the economic depression.

[...]A couple of them really didn't help the cause by showing up in full or partial drag but fortunately there were only 2 like that. One was bright orange in color, bringing attention to everyone

The video shows up that the chap in bright orange was, in fact, in costume -- "Captain Info", if I recall correctly. There was another chap there, who became the darling of the media photographers, in a leather mini-skirt and women's pumps. Guess who captured the attention. The moral here is that if we're to get skirted fashions acceptable to the general populace we do not have a friend in the mass media.

Another problem was that at the "Million SKIRTED Men March" there were only a very few actual skirts. Lots and lots of kilts tho. The pictures portrayed a lot of fun was had by everyone there so that's a good thing.

Indeed! The preponderance of kilts was readily apparent, and may have reflected the sentiment of the day where a non-kilt skirted garment may have provoked ridicule (see the example of the mini-skirted chap above) or worse. I believe the tactic was valid at the time.

From everything I'm able to gather, virtually all those present had a grand old time. They should be celebrated for the pioneers that they are (or, sadly, in some cases, were).

[...]One of the earliest members, a current member of X Marks the Scot, "Hamish" actually left this site when too many skirted men and men with other fashion interests started joining.

From a personal perspective, I found "Ham"'s departure extremely sad. He had a most wonderfully genteel way of expressing himself, and a positively wonderful way of wielding the English language. I hope he is well.

Now there's talk of the site breaking up into smaller pieces. I hope it doesn't. SkirtCafe does have it's place in the world and I hope Bob keeps it going.

I, too, hope that SkirtCafe continues to be relevant; we're a bit of a niche community, to be perfectly honest, but we serve a section of the populace that is important -- those who may be considering alternatives to trousers, and who wish to do so as themselves without having to resort to trickery, mimicry, or deception. What could be more important?

Sooner or later, it might be hoped, SkirtCafe might be considered obsolete -- if it ever comes to pass that blokes in non-trousered garments are universally accepted, then I'll be one happy bloke. Until then, however, supportive communities remain important.

[DALederle]

Pants were born out of need and served a purpose.
With the invention of the stirrup for saddles, which allowed the creation of armored knights, there was no need for pants as the garment being worn by men. Once the stirrup was invent as more people rode astride horse (which led to the creation in the USA of the cowboy) then people needed pants. Even then it took from 1000 a.d. to modern times for pants to become the one single garment most people wear today.
There simply is no urgent need for people to day to wear skirts or any skirted garment.
It is only something we like to wear and not something others will flock to wear themselves. Most men see no need for a skirted garment and would shun the very idea of wearing anything less then totally masculine. With women wearing pants by preference, more time then not the impetus for skirt wearing lessons each passing day.
If we could come with a "need" for a skirt everyone one would want one.
But that just isn't going to happen.
Seceral years ago I read articles by some scientist that claimed that covering up the human groin area leads to long range health problems. Increases vaginal disease in women and crotch rot or jock itch in men. In spite of those reports society just goes on wearing pants like that was the hollygrail of all garments ever worn.
I've found myself trying to point out to people that Jesus Christ NEVER wore a pair of pants! Nor did Julius Ceasar or Hurcules, in spit of what Kevin Sorbo wore in the TV series.
So why do we want to wear skirts?
Why is that important to any of us?
For me it's just personal choice.
Dennis

[crfriend]

Pants were born out of need and served a purpose.

True enough, and they still serve in that capacity. Whilst I do not ride horses, I occasioanally work around high-speed machinery where loose and flowing garments would be a decidedly bad idea. Trousers absolutely have their place, make no bones about it.

With the invention of the stirrup for saddles, which allowed the creation of armored knights, there was no need for pants as the garment being worn by men.

Methinks we have a composition problem here. Without the stirrup, armoured knights would not be possible in the manner in which we think them; they simply would have fallen off their mounts. As one might imagine, this would have been suboptimal in battle. Too, humans rode astride horses well before the stirrup was invented; indeed, for the most part, Native Americans rode "bareback" (sans saddle or stirrup) in their daily lives.

If we could come with a "need" for a skirt everyone one would want one.

There are tantalyzing hints that skirted garments may help with certain forms of heat-related reproductive matters, but to my knowledge no studies have been run on the matter. The best evidence is anecdotal, and mainly has to do with boxers vs. briefs. Skirts would trump both notions.

So, in the absence of a perceived "need", one has to put up with the notion of "desire". Now, desire is not a bad thing, and it can spring from many sources. Ultimately, what is inherently wrong with the argument of, "because I want to"? If we want to wear skirted garments, what's stopping us?

[Sarongman]

Stirrups came to the west through the "barbarian" mercenaries in the declining years of the Roman empire. I was interested to see, on an archeological programme, the discovery of a Roman stirrup in the remains of a fort on Hadrian's Wall. It was indistinguishable from a modern one. Simple technology cannot be bettered! It is true that trousers are so well entrenched now that they seem to be here forever but, in fashion, things can change overnight. The young always rebel and overturn the mores of their elders. (My generation did in the 60s and the decade before popularised the blue jean) Maybe it is from here that the skirt for men will rise again----No No not like Marylin Monroe

[Departed Member]

Seceral years ago I read articles by some scientist that claimed that covering up the human groin area leads to long range health problems. Increases vaginal disease in women and crotch rot or jock itch in men. In spite of those reports society just goes on wearing pants like that was the hollygrail of all garments ever worn.

It's probably far, far more serious than that as far as health issues (for both genders) are concerned. There has been much more scientific research involved than has been made publically available. The "Big C" in the 'downstairs department' just loves tight, cramped tr*users! But your societal observation is the crux of the matter, to be sure. My GP, a committed feminist by the way, admits she once viewed tr*users as 'an expression of the feminist cause' and wore 'em virtually all the time. But, of course, her detailed research into 'feminine health' led her to conclude that the risks involved outweighed the, shall we say, 'political benefits'. Her advice in respect of my particular health problem is, "If you were a woman, I'd strongly recommend you avoid wearing tr*users at all!" My Urologist openly says that if men wore Kilts or skirts (as opposed to tr*users), his waiting list would be much shorter! He also acknowledges he hasn't a "snowball's chance in hell!" of persuading any bloke to do so, as Society stands today!

[Milfmog]

< Snip > My Urologist openly says that if men wore Kilts or skirts (as opposed to tr*users), his waiting list would be much shorter! He also acknowledges he hasn't a "snowball's chance in hell!" of persuading any bloke to do so, as Society stands today!

I do hope you put him right on that Merlin; once he knew he'd "persuaded" you he might try with others and even if they only wore skirts at home it would be a start.

Have fun,


Ian.

[Departed Member]

I do hope you put him right on that Merlin; once he knew he'd "persuaded" you he might try with others and even if they only wore skirts at home it would be a start.

Ha ha! I should have said, "other blokes"! He is aware of my domestic situation, skirt-wise, as is my Neurologist. Like many medical professionals, they are fully aware of the real health benefits of 'a lack of bifurcation'! However, working in a City with an awfully high number of (badly behaved) TVs & CDs (they ARE different, trust me!), they'd be loth to even suggest the idea - sadly!

[Brad]

There was another chap there, who became the darling of the media photographers, in a leather mini-skirt and women's pumps. Guess who captured the attention.

I was the chap in the miniskirt (denim, not leather), pantyhose, and pumps whose picture was published in the NY Times. See http://www.mensfashionfreedom.bravehost ... 804100.htm If you do an image search on Google of "million skirted men", this picture will appear on the first page.

I feel that I was a fair representation of men in skirts, although admittedly in the extreme. I did not seek this attention, rather it came to me. This picture was taken without my knowledge and I was surprised to see it in the paper the next day.

Some men can sound like a bunch of catty females when one of us gets the attention, like those women who start sentences with "Can you believe that she was wearing ....?"

I was flamed on the internet for MONTHS over this picture. How ironic- in a group of skirt-wearing men, already on the fringes of society, I am on the fringes of the group.

If you were on assignment for the NY Times, who would you have chosen to photograph? Did you think the NY Times would rather have a picture of a bunch of men in kilts?

[Sasquatch]

I do hope you put him right on that Merlin; once he knew he'd "persuaded" you he might try with others and even if they only wore skirts at home it would be a start.

Ha ha! I should have said, "other blokes"! He is aware of my domestic situation, skirt-wise, as is my Neurologist. Like many medical professionals, they are fully aware of the real health benefits of 'a lack of bifurcation'! However, working in a City with an awfully high number of (badly behaved) TVs & CDs (they ARE different, trust me!), they'd be loth to even suggest the idea - sadly!

I'm curious as to whether your urologist also wears skirts. If not perhaps you would do well to persuade him to lead by example.

sasq