Questionable Trend: the Man Skirt

[cessna152towser]

Interesting blog here about the recent fashion runways, with some for and against comments:-
http://www.thefrisky.com/post/246-quest ... man-skirt/

[JRMILLER]

Here's a comment from someone who saw this article

So I was out last night with a friend who attended a party this week where all these fashion people were milling around and she said there were TONS of gay guys wearing the man skirt. Y’all this trend is comin’, like it or not!

The scary thing about this is if the gay guys jump on the bandwagon and embrace skirts in public, then it will reinforce the notion with the public that guys who wear skirts must be gay. Bad enough fighting one stigma, don't need another one added on top of it!

[Uncle Al]

I've just read the article.

The concept is great

The examples are terrible

I don't know of anyone here who would wear such
outlandish attire as shown in the pictures. Now, if
one of the 'designers' were to produce an example
of a normal guy wearing a normal, conservative
style skirt, the idea would catch on much quicker, than
someone looking at the 'runway examples' and saying...
I wouldn't be caught dead in one of those things...

Just my opinion....

Uncle Al
Duncanville, TX

[Since1982]

Amelia said in the article: So I was out last night with a friend who attended a party this week where all these fashion people were milling around and she said there were TONS of gay guys wearing the man skirt. Y’all this trend is comin’, like it or not!

I think Amelia or her friend need to do some research on gays and men in skirts. I spent 18 of the first 20 years of my life in Ft. Lauderdale FL., which has one of the largest gay populations in the US. It ALSO has one of the largest Crossdresser populations in the USA. With only a very few exceptions the twain seldom mix.

I was a host on AOL for 9 years and wafted from CD rooms to gay rooms to straight rooms to techy rooms watching for untoward use of the service and helping folks with AOL tech.

The first thing you learn in a Crossdresser room is the % of CD's that are gay is about 2% or less. Same with Trannies BUT with Drag Queens probably 50% are gay. Go figger!..When I'd go in a CD room as a Host Help I assumed ALL CD's were gay, they let me know in no uncertain terms that I was wrong on that idea. Most CD's are happily married to women. Same with transvestites. Most Drag Queens are not married and are gay. I have no idea why.

Anyone else having typed out posts not making it to the thread? I just spent 20 minutes on a thought out post and entered it only to see it poof into never never land. I guess in the future I'll have to start c/p'ing posts before I enter them as I did with this one.

[Sasquatch]

Skip, if you're so inclined, please explain the differences in these groups for the unenlightened, like yours truly. I always thought those were three names for the same fancy. Thanks,
sasq

[Since1982]

As it's been explained to me, and I could be wrong, as I often am, is, A CD or Crossdresser is a man who presents as a woman part time, usually with his life partner/wife's approval. A Transvestite is a man who presents as a woman full time but doesn't want the srs or loss of male plumbing, and a Drag Queen is a man (usually gay) that "part time" does the extreme look of huge hair, massive makeup, very glittery costumes, usually is in the company of other men who also do the Drag Queen scene. Refer to movies, "Priscilla, Queen of the Desert" or "Too Wong Foo, Thanks for everything Julie Newmar". These movies are all about the Drag Queen lifestyle. San Francisco is a city with a large Drag Queen populace. As is Los Angeles and New York.
I hope I've helped. I knew a lot of Crossdressers when I was young and living in Fort Lauderdale, my math tutor in 1963 during my first year of college was a crossdresser, and a wonderful, very smart man. I was going for Marine Biology but math was a prerequisite and I stank at it, still do.
P.S. The term Transgendered is a blanket term to cover all 3, but not the Transsexual, who is a person that has had srs to become the opposite sex. SRS = Sex Reassignment Surgery

[Kris]

As it's been explained to me, and I could be wrong, as I often am, is, A CD or Crossdresser is a man who presents as a woman part time, usually with his life partner/wife's approval. A Transvestite is a man who presents as a woman full time but doesn't want the srs or loss of male plumbing, and a Drag Queen is a man (usually gay) that "part time" does the extreme look of huge hair, massive makeup, very glittery costumes, usually is in the company of other men who also do the Drag Queen scene. Refer to movies, "Priscilla, Queen of the Desert" or "Too Wong Foo, Thanks for everything Julie Newmar". These movies are all about the Drag Queen lifestyle. San Francisco is a city with a large Drag Queen populace. As is Los Angeles and New York.
I hope I've helped. I knew a lot of Crossdressers when I was young and living in Fort Lauderdale, my math tutor in 1963 during my first year of college was a crossdresser, and a wonderful, very smart man. I was going for Marine Biology but math was a prerequisite and I stank at it, still do.
P.S. The term Transgendered is a blanket term to cover all 3, but not the Transsexual, who is a person that has had srs to become the opposite sex. SRS = Sex Reassignment Surgery

Good descriptions, Skip.
I would note that people, of course, don't fit neatly into 3 or 4 buckets; there is a spectrum of behaviors (just as people here represent a spectrum of MUG wearing).
The people in those groups can argue endlessly about what the different terms mean.
There are many transexuals who have not had SRS (or GRS, as it is also called). And many may, for whatever reason, never have it - but they are still transexual. That is just one example of how difficult it can be to clearly define terms.

Kris

[Departed Member]

The term Transgendered is a blanket term to cover all 3, but not the Transsexual, who is a person that has had srs to become the opposite sex.

In the UK, the term "transgendered" seems only to be used in connection with someone 'going (or intending to go) all the way'. Other than that, I would generally agree with Skip's well thought out synopsis. I would put the "Drag Queen = Homosexual" percentage much higher though, nearer 90%. The whole point (apparently) is that the intention is to 'parody' women, while still being identifiable as a male, despite (usu.) buckets of make-up! And, of course, the British affinity for Pantomime Dames leads us conveniently to the ultimate in "Drag" outfits, the occupants of which would be nearer the 50/50 scenario!

Conversations, over the years, with some of our chums who have opted for the homosexual lifestyle, would again confirm Skip's observations that homosexuals and skirts rarely mix, outside of the (very limited?) "Drag Scene". Again, based on their experiences, there is no love lost between such factions, either. I can think of only two who have been persuaded into either dress or skirt as a 'one off' for a party, but vowed never to repeat the experience, partly on the basis that it acted as a 'turn on' for some of the ladies present!

[Kris]

The term Transgendered is a blanket term to cover all 3, but not the Transsexual, who is a person that has had srs to become the opposite sex.

In the UK, the term "transgendered" seems only to be used in connection with someone 'going (or intending to go) all the way'. Other than that, I would generally agree with Skip's well thought out synopsis.

Actually, the quote at the top was from Skip, not me.
Here in the USA, I believe the term transgendered is generally used to include transsexuals, but with wider application. It's meaning depends on who is using it, and as I said the folks in the various groups are far from agreeing on terminology.

Kris

[Departed Member]

Actually, the quote at the top was from Skip, not me.

Yes, sorry about that! I had a problem there, quoting from a quote!

Here in the USA, I believe the term transgendered is generally used to include transsexuals, but with wider application. It's meaning depends on who is using it, and as I said the folks in the various groups are far from agreeing on terminology. Kris

I suspect that must really annoy those folk who have had the guts to take the full transsexual path. I believe I would indeed be most sympathetic to such a viewpoint, too. But I do take your point, that folk in other countries use the same words in many different connotations, as indeed, do many in the same country!

[skirtingtherealissue]

I read an article, can't remember where, that suggested that the proportion of gay crossdressers/ transvestites/ transexuals, etc., was roughly the same as for the population in general. I suspect the party, to which the poster referred was predominantly a gay party, full of people playing to a theme. Either that, or she was just trying to cover her own bigotry.

Anyway, moving from the gay/ trans.... direction. It seems Mrs Beckham has no problem with men in skirts (husband in a sarong and accompanying Marc Jacobs.) She seems to be a bit of an ambassador for us.

[Since1982]

Main Entry: trans·sex·u·al
Variant(s): also tran·sex·u·al \(ˌ)tran(t)s-ˈsek-sh(ə-)wəl, -shəl\
Function: noun
Date: 1957
: a person who strongly identifies with the opposite sex and may seek to live as a member of this sex especially by undergoing surgery and hormone therapy to obtain the necessary physical appearance (as by changing the external sex organs)
— transsexual adjective
— trans·sex·u·al·ism also tran·sex·u·al·ism \-sh(ə-)wə-ˌli-zəm, -shə-ˌli-\ noun
— trans·sex·u·al·i·ty also tran·sex·u·al·i·ty \-ˌsek-shə-ˈwa-lə-tē\ noun

Kris, If I'm wrong, so is Miriam Webster Dictionary. This is where I got my original information at. Transgender on the other hand, is what you described as well as some other situations. Transgender is a blanket term for many situations including those who are CD, Trannies, Thinking about becoming transsexual people but not doing it and Drag Queens.
Refer to HBO's Transsexuals Series about 4 young people, 2 woman>man and 2 man>woman transsexualizing by surgery called SRS = Sexual Reassignment Surgery.

[Kris]

Main Entry: trans·sex·u·al
Variant(s): also tran·sex·u·al \(ˌ)tran(t)s-ˈsek-sh(ə-)wəl, -shəl\
Function: noun
Date: 1957
: a person who strongly identifies with the opposite sex and may seek to live as a member of this sex especially by undergoing surgery and hormone therapy to obtain the necessary physical appearance (as by changing the external sex organs)
— transsexual adjective
— trans·sex·u·al·ism also tran·sex·u·al·ism \-sh(ə-)wə-ˌli-zəm, -shə-ˌli-\ noun
— trans·sex·u·al·i·ty also tran·sex·u·al·i·ty \-ˌsek-shə-ˈwa-lə-tē\ noun

Kris, If I'm wrong, so is Miriam Webster Dictionary. This is where I got my original information at. Transgender on the other hand, is what you described as well as some other situations. Transgender is a blanket term for many situations including those who are CD, Trannies, Thinking about becoming transsexual people but not doing it and Drag Queens.
Refer to HBO's Transsexuals Series about 4 young people, 2 woman>man and 2 man>woman transsexualizing by surgery called SRS = Sexual Reassignment Surgery.

Skip - not to be argumentative, but please carefully read the definition. Note the "may". There are many people who are transexuals (TS), but for a variety of reasons have not fully transitioned in their lives. They are still TS by that definition, and are considered such by doctors who deal with their issues.
For example, a male to female TS (MtF) may have a wife he loves and reaches an agreement with her to only "go so far" in his transition in order to keep his relationship with her. Or someone may have health issues that make surgery unwise. Or finances may not be available. Those people are still TS.
In short being TS has more to do with the "strongly identifies with the opposite sex" part of the definition (what's between the ears) than with the part about surgery (what's between the legs, SRS or GRS).

Kris

[Sasquatch]

I think that, in the way those two terms are commonly applied, Transgendered means the proverbial "woman trapped in a man's body" (and vice versa) although there can be some variations, I suppose, and maybe that definition is too restrictive. Transsexual, to my understanding is someone, M or F, who has undergone SRS. I had always conceptualized Transvestitism as the compulsion to dress or impersonate the opposite sex, and thought of Crossdressing as a closeted transvestite and Drag Queen as an "out" transvestite...who may frequent or gather in certain clubs or bars. My guess is that the flambuoyance is a result of a man not being truly "passable". Is that a fair description? Where would non-flambuoyant men who can (practically) pass for women (and do publically) fit in to this terminology?

[Departed Member]

I had always conceptualized Transvestitism as the compulsion to dress or impersonate the opposite sex, and thought of Crossdressing as a closeted transvestite and Drag Queen as an "out" transvestite...who may frequent or gather in certain clubs or bars. My guess is that the flambuoyance is a result of a man not being truly "passable". Is that a fair description? Where would non-flambuoyant men who can (practically) pass for women (and do publically) fit in to this terminology?

I would concur with your assessment of the Transvestite, and to answer your last question, I believe that is where you'd find your "men who can (practically) pass for women (and do publically)". My own observations certainly suggest this is very much the case. A fair number of TVs, though, are 'borderline' when it comes to passing, which is why some will go to the extremes of beard electrolysis, even though they've no wish to 'transition' on a more permanent basis.

Crossdressers get their 'kicks' out of "wearing women's clothing" and may do so either occasionally, just at meetings with fellow fetishists or more rarely, full time. In contrast to the active Transvestite, there is often no attempt to wear wigs, (stuffed) bras or even make-up!

The "Drag Queens" (those not on the stage!) tend to congregate in groups, and invariably try and outdo one another, with their OTT costumes. And "costume" is very much the crux of their 'hobby'. It appears to be an essential part of the game that it is obvious (to an 'outsider') that they are, indeed, of the male gender. Although the majority are of a homosexual persuasion (in stark contrast to the CD fraternity), there is, according to our 'conventional' homosexual chums, absolutely no common ground. Certainly, if Nottingham's weekend nightlife is anything to go by, there is much verbal animosity (& occasional violence) between the two factions. So I would respectfully submit that the answer to your first question is that the motives of this group is solely to parody women.