Personal Disclosure

[Bob]

As we discuss issues at SkirtCafe, why we do or say what we do often comes down to our personal spiritual, religious and political beliefs. I have gone to efforts to ensure that SkirtCafe is a "secular society" in the sense of not favoring one set of religious or political beliefs over the other, while also trying to ensure we have the freedom to be who we are, in a meaningful manner, in such a secular context.

SkirtCafe's secular nature has been enhanced by bringing Carl on as moderator; he and I have very different spiritual and political approaches, and that helps bring balance and perspective to the board. I have generally not said much about where I personally stand on these issues because I do not want SkirtCafe to be seen as a reflection of my values. However, one cannot help but make a personal imprint.

I will therefore use this post to share some details about where I stand spiritually and politically. Others please feel free to do so as well if you like.

NOTE: This is not a discussion. Please talk about yourself only on this thread, or your post will be deleted.

I was raised in a non-religious manner. I became a Baptist Christian as a young adult, and have been ever since. What it means to be Baptist is unfortunately widely mis-understood, due to a lot of "un-Baptist" approaches taken by some well-known Baptist denominations. To me, being Baptist means that I hold individual free choice as a high value; that value goes back to the founding of the denomination. We're the libertarian trouble-makers in the church. Baptists will historically work for freedom of religion, even freedom for those whose religions we don't like. And we're the ones who want to think it through for ourselves, rather than just accepting what's handed down by the pastor or some higher-up being in a hierarchy.

Theologically, I am somewhat right-of-center, with a strong libertarian leaning. My values and lifestyle also tend to be fairly conservative --- again, with strong libertarian leanings. I'm married with a kid and a dog and a house (but not quite a picket fence). But it's not wholly conservative: my house is actually a new-construction "inner city in-fill," and I'm involved in an inter-racial marriage and doubly inter-racial adoption. My church is "welcoming and affirming", skirt-friendly, and is run by a woman. I also tend to vote Democratic: although their socialist economic policies bug me at times, I prefer that to the social conservativism of the Republicans.

Although I had a career as a dancer (which leads to a certain comfort-level with seeing one's own body, and others' bodies, clad in spandex), I am absolutely uncomfortable with "sex in your face" in the public sphere. At the same time, I'm even less comfortable with people trying to stop that. And I'll be frank, I personally want a place where we can talk about skirts for men without talking about sex. Yes, I do remove what I consider to be overly sexual material from SkirtCafe. I could probably "get away" with leaving some of it on and not get stopped by the authorities. But maybe that's where my own preference sneaks into how I end up shaping the board. I try not to pass judgment on this issue, other than to say that it does not belong on this forum. Ziggy is correct when he says that some things get removed because I made the rules here.

Being active in a religious community is not just about what we think or believe about the spiritual realm --- it's also about simple human interaction, how a voluntary community of people can get together with a combination of shared core values as well as differing viewpoints. My experience with church --- and my wife is a professional minister --- absolutely influences the way I run SkirtCafe. Ideally in Baptist church (and many other churches), there's an overall structure that includes a variety of people, encourages civil debate, respects differences, and ultimately finds a way to make a place for the motley crew that comes through the door. And at the same time, there is a sense of shared values that unites. In a church that works well, you can have an intense debate at the congregational meeting, then sincerely hug each other as you go out the door and look forward to seeing them again next week. And hopefully your understanding of yourself and your community deepens through such interactions. I realize that many churches are essentially homogeneous, but all the churches I've ever participated in are actually pretty diverse, with all sorts of crazy unique individuals of all different sizes, shapes, viewpoints, socioeconomic statuses and colors. I guess that's what "church in the city" tends to be like.

I seek to bring that same congregational approach to SkirtCafe. I want this to be a welcoming and affirming place that is based on shared core values but also respects differences while engaging in substantive debate. Hopefully, we will meet people at SkirtCafe that maybe we would never have run across in our "other lives." I want this to be a place where we can all learn and grow, in spite of whatever issues we may be dealing with --- and we should be able to bring those issues to the Cafe if they're important to us, even though they might be "off topic." SkirtCafe is not just a discussion forum, it is a community. That is why I have never kicked anyone off of SkirtCafe. You can't kick people out of church, and I believe the same applies here.

[Uncle Al]

Well said Bob! I appreciate your input, advice, and over-all
even handedness that your take with the Cafe' patrons. I've
never entered the Cafe' without seeing a welcome smile from
you or your associate 'barista', Carl.

I may be a registered Republican, but I look at all sides of an
issue and then vote accordingly. I'm more of an Independent,
but the voting registrar says I must be either Dem. or Rep., so,
I chose the Republican as this 'label' fits better than being a
Democrat. I grew up in either a Church of God, Christian Church
( which was a mile out in the country ), then joined the Medodist
Church when I was in high school. I was part-time church
organist, and enjoyed it very much. I feel that the main
churches of today deal with the New Testiment and these teachings
are built upon the Old Testiment but also show that Christ was
a loving and kind person. That we all should strive to be more loving
and kind to each other. All people are accepted for their inner
beauty, not the wrapping of the package. Several 'items' in the Old
Testiment have 'updated' guidelines set forth in the New Testiment.
I won't go into any specifics as this is not warrented here.

I'm 57, married 36 years, with 2 sons, a daughter-in-law, and a
wonderful grandson. 1 dog, 4 cats and a 20 gallon aquarium.
I'm retired, love Theatre Organs ( pipe or digital), music, aviation,
model trains, gardening, kilts and skirts.

I believe that debate is a healthy thing to participate in. I just don't
like to see debate turn into a heated argument.
I thank the 'Fire Fighters' [that's Bob and Carl] for
keeping things under control.

Uncle Al
Duncanville, TX

(BTW-The Palm needs water. )

[Sarongman]

Thank you Bob for your personal disclosure thread. I suppose I should add my two bob's worth. I am a New Agey heretic with Gnostic and Arian colourings to my Christianity. Baptised a Presbyterian, I turned Anglican in my early 20s. I even studied for the Anglican Priesthood. I then turned Catholic after I met my S.O. I enjoyed my time as a member of the Catholic community in Queensland, which, especially the Parish at Kenilworth, was open to meditation, Zen, Sufism and had my heretical bent!! I am now going (unwillingly) to a highly conservative and authoritarian cathedral and am becoming disillusioned with corporate worship and would rather set aside time to a private and personal "coming closer"to the Ground of All Being AKA "God" or YHVH the unnameable( as a Rabbi told me- not Yahweh or Jehovah)
I hope I remain open to all ideas without closing my mind and anathematising all that I disagree with. (An unfortunate tendency among some members of the Christian community.) Thinking outside the square is nothing new in this board, however religious belief (or non belief) is a very personal thing among many of us and it is so easy to tread on toes without realising that we have and, if I have done so, Having also been through the offices and chair in the Masonic lodge, I know that the same rules apply regarding religion and politics-- they are not to be raised in conversation for the good of the fraternity. Politically, I am an independent and will vote for the candidate and not the party if I cannot put an independent first on the ticket! Nothing much further to add except certifiabe ratbag WYSIWIG

[Since1982]

Was born to Catholic parents, was sent to Catholic schools from 1st grade on. Had nuns that LOVED their metal rulers. Say or do anything they didn't like and your knuckles turned red and then bloody from interaction with the rulers. By the 3rd grade, my knuckles were calloused from being beaten. My knees were also calloused from kneeling. I started skipping school in the 5th grade and going to a Baptist church/school on Sundays when I was supposed to be on my knees in Catholic church, I preferred the love/care attitude over the punishment/ordered attitude of that particular Catholic church in Fort Lauderdale where I was raised. I never met the Father in charge at Little Flower Catholic school until I started not coming. Then he showed up at my home and was VERY nice to me to get me to come back. Of course my dad took over the punishing to make sure I went to the "right" school. I still didn't, kept going to the Baptist school 'cause I liked the attitude and teachings. I got a lot of beatings for not going to Catholic school but kept it up until the day I walked out of Little Flower forever, and was then supported in this decision by my dad. What happened to bring him around was an experience with the Priest in charge. I had never gone to his church services since I started going to the Baptist services. It started with an argument with a Catholic Lay teacher that insisted I get on my knees at the beginning of class. I refused, he said, "get on your knees you athiest!" I got up and walked out. The Priest came to my house and suggested I come to church with him the following sunday and I should forgive the Lay teacher. I told the Priest that I'd come to church with him if he'd come to Baptist services with me the week before I went to services with him. That was the end of my Catholic experience as the Priest wasn't having any.
My dad, a devout Catholic, was also a devout Klu Klux Klansman. He was also a great dad and fisherman. When I was very young, I saw nothing wrong with his KKK stuff. All our friends were in it with him and it seemed as normal as anything else. My youth, remember, was in the early 40's...long before the civil rights movement. When I was old enough to know the difference my dad and I got in many a heated argument about everyone being the same under the skin. I could never make him understand that there was no difference in people.
My mom, who'd had 6 female miscarriages before I was born, kept me in the already bought female clothing whenever I was at home until I was 9 years old. I learned early how comfortable a skirted garment was. I never cared much for the rest of the ensemble tho, even tho my hair, which was a foot long when I was born and white-blond was played with by Mom all the time and wasn't cut until I was 6 and starting regular school. I sort of missed it after they cut it short. It was waist length when cut. Mom still dressed me fem when at home until I was 9, her favorite night of the year was Halloween when she could dress me up and take me out trick or treating. Most folks who's homes we visited just thought I was a girl and wondered why I was not in costume. LOL..
I've been in love with skirted garments all my life and thanks to Tom Manuel and THIS SITE, I FINALLY am at ease with wearing skirts all the time in public. I never wanted to BE a girl but always believed there should be no reason why folks shouldn't be able to wear whatever they felt like. I still feel that way and try to help others with their inhibitions.

[owen]

My dad, a devout Catholic, was also a devout Klu Klux Klansman.

Wow, that must be a first! How did he reconcile the two?

[RichardA]

How did he reconcile the two

One Our Father and three Hail Mary's

[Since1982]

Boo!

One Our Father and three Hail Mary's

Boo boo...He did no such thing. You all Must understand that in the 1940's black people were considered no different than they had been for the previous 75 years since the end of the Civil war. Free but not really free. Until Rosa Parks did her bus thing in 1957 Black folks weren't even allowed to go to the beach and swim in the ocean. It was thought that they would somehow pollute the ocean. In the 1940's the Klu Klux Klan was considered an honorable association, with members that were also the Governors, Mayors, and other public officials all over the South. In 1954 I went to the beach at Fort Lauderdale Florida where I was raised, to watch the Klan with machine guns cocked waiting for blacks that had said they were going swimming. The police were no where to be seen.(most of the police in Lauderdale were under the white uniforms and pointy hats) Luckily for them, the blacks backed off at the last minute. There would have been a bloodbath if they hadn't. This was the same time I was arguing with my dad all the time about the sameness of all color peoples.

[RichardA]

We too in the UK can also hang our heads in shame the way we treated coloured people in the slave trade

[sapphire]

OK I'll throw in here.

Was originally baptised as Roman Catholic. Not surprising because my mother was Puerto Rican. But I had a big mouth and spoke my mind. One Sunday, at the ripe old age of 2 1/2, I had had enough with Mass on a hot summer morning, stood up on the pew, pointed at the priest and said very clearly, "That man talks too much". Mom was very embarrassed and tried to sneak out of the church. The priest caught up with her and told her that I was a child of the devil and was going to h*ll. Mom got flustered and told him that he could go there and take his church with him.

Shortly afterwards, we moved to a small town on Long Island that had two churches, a Roman Catholic church and a Presbyterian church. Mom switched to the Presbyterian church because it was the only other alternative available. I remember it fondly. There was a great sense of community and support. I remember one winter when the parents had forgotten to call for oil delivery, the heat went out and a blizzard was blowing. The pastor stopped by. He was checking on the young families and the elderly. He said nothing about our situation, but badgered the oil company to deliver oil immediately and the church paid for the oil. The pastor came by later with two bags of groceries.

We moved to New Jersey right after I finished seventh grade and joined the Presbyterian church in that town. Dad became an Ordained Elder and Mom was a Deacon, head of Sunday School and Church Libnrarian. But what I remeber best wwas the sense of community and people helping people, the community dinners, the square dancing and the various youth activities.

After high school, I inadvertantly moved into an apartment complex that was 98% Jewish and learned their traditions and celebrations and even a little Yiddish, which I have long since forgotten.

Almost 20 years ago, Mom and my brother joined a cult in Montana and moved there. Dad became a Secular Humanist. I learned about Wicca and consider myself a Presbywiccian. (yeah, I know I made that term up) I dabbled in Anglican and think it is great theater.

Politically, I'm a firm Independant, although in this primary, I registered as Republican so I could vote against Mitt Romney. The man did terrible things to the public education system in MA.

Fashion wise, I've always been about half a bubble out of plum even within the constraints forced upon me as a child. I believe that everyone should be able to choose fashions that best represent them within the boundaries of common decency.

[alexthebird]

My turn I guess. I was born to parents who had a Jesuit Catholic background, but had already started turning away from the Church. I had all the sacraments, went to Sunday School, and never wondered why neither of my parents received Holy Communion. I found out much later it was because they were using birth control and didn't think they could receive the sacraments while in a condition that the Church thought was a sin.

My father was a professor and we frequently had guests to the house (students, faculty, etc.) who were Jewish or Moslem or Chinese or African or Dutch or African-American or anything else (and this was the late 1950s, when this was, I found out later, truly unusual). It wasn't until I started going to school and noticed that I was one of about four Catholic kids and my best friend was the only Jew that I started to understand that this stuff made a difference. I didn't understand why it made a difference, just that it did.

I went to a catholic high school and that's when I finally left the church. In retrospect, I think I needed room to explore and the Catholic church in the 1960s wasn't really living up to ideals that my intellectual and spiritual upbringing demanded. So I began wandering in the wilderness, if you will.

In college, my best friend (and except for my 2nd wife, I'm still closer to her than anyone else) was a Jewish woman who became a Reform rabbi. She didn't try to recruit me but she was such a serene and confident person that I was inspired to explore her faith. A couple of years later, when Bob Dylan went Christian (and Dylan has always been a source of inspiration for me), I was approached by an evangelical stranger and was captivated by her enthusiasm and explored that path for a bit.

My strangest detour took place in the late 1970s and early 1980s when I flirted with Rastafarianism. I discovered reggae in 1978 and became completely immersed in it within a year. Eventually, I recognized that my passion was musical, not religious, but that journey included a dalliance with that faith.

During my first marriage, I'd describe myself as essentially agnostic. Once I recovered from my Rastafarian infatuation, I just felt that religion wasn't really important to me. I could live easily without it. In 2000, my marriage exploded and by the end of the year it was over and I was living on my own. During that year, a friend recommended meditation as a way of managing stress and that led to an exploration of Zen Buddhism that really helped change my life. I wouldn't pretend to say that I embraced Buddhism, but the sense of being centered that meditation can cultivate and the feeling of connectedness to the world as a whole became very important to me. This also helped me recognize that I missed not having a spiritual core.

About a year later, I met my 2nd wife and we married in early 2003. About two years later, we visited Paris and like all tourists, spent a lot of time visiting churches. In St. Chappelle, and again in St. Sulpice, St. Germain, and St. Etienne, I had experiences that can only be described as spiritual. When I got back to Philadelphia, I began to explore what it means to be Catholic again. I'm not there yet, but I now know that somewhere in the Buddhist approach to life and the Catholic heritage, I'm going to find something of truly lasting value. Oh by the way, I work for a Quaker organization, spent most of my days with Quakers, and find their approach to life unbelievably rewarding, frustrating, and as powerful a benchmark for my own spiritual journey as a I could possibly imagine.

As for politics, I'm sort of libertarian, sort of pacifist and definitely free market. On the other hand, I would willingly embrace someone whose ideals were the polar opposite of mine if they could actually make things work. I firmly believe, to the bottom of my heart, that competence and the ability to be effective is far more important in politics than the correct point of view. I have trouble thinking of a US president whose positions were closer to mine than Jimmy Carter, but I felt he was an abject failure as a president because he couldn't get anything done. Ronald Reagan's policies were nowhere close to mine, but I respect him because his administration knew how to get things done reasonably honestly.

[Ray]

I'd call myself an agnostic atheist in that I can't prove whether or not a god exists, and I don't believe that any gods do exist.

I was taken to church from an early age until I was in my mid teens. I then went off the idea completely while at university. I became slightly spiritual when I started work - perhaps I wanted to believe that there was a god - but I have moved away from that stance since. Certainly, I don't attend church, and when I married, it was not in a church (it would be a touch hypocritical).

None of my friends are that religious - actually, only two I can think of go to church - but that's reasonably representative of my country (the UK) and my age.

Politically, I advocate free market economics but with controls ( I don't believe in rampant capitalism). I'm anti-population (I believe that the world's population should drop to c.1.5 billion max - as to how; I'm still thinking about that!) and unsurprisingly I am an advocate of environmentalism (forget global warming etc; it's a good idea not to waste assets and resources). According to a test I recently took, I'm politically central (UK = libdem-ish; US = democrat, probably) and libertarian in outlook (personal liberty AND responsibility but also acting for the greater good).

Boy, this lot is confusing....