One small step

[Topsy]

As previously stated I'm now waiting for a response.

I have no intention of alienating anyone from this thread and I certainly appreciate anyone who has offered support.

[boca]

I have not been alienated, Topsy I feel like

I have been watching this thread with excitement as your steadfastness in holding with your employer is quite a good example of holding on to what you believe in, even under the pressures of stubbern bosses. :cheer: :cheer:

[crfriend]

I have no intention of alienating anyone from this thread and I certainly appreciate anyone who has offered support.

Heavens, no; I sincerely doubt you've alienated anyone. I believe we all know that once bureaucracy kicks in things move at a positively glacial pace.

I salute your steadfastness in this endeavour; I probably would have given it up after the first "no", almost certainly the second. Here's hoping that cool rational heads will take a look at the "dress code" and come to the conclusion that it's mostly antiquated hogwash and toss it out.

[Milfmog]

Hi Topsy,

This is a fascinating thread and I'm sure everyone here is rootin' for you. Have you heard any more in the last fortnight?

Just a thought but have you considered asking UK residents to drop a note to their MP's asking about gender fashion discrimination in Government departments? I guess it might make too many waves right now (while the powers that be are still wrestling with the issue) but if you get the "wrong" answer it could be another avenue for changing minds.

Keeping my fingers crossed for good news...


Ian.

[Topsy]

I've not posted anything for a few weeks as there is little to say as yet.

I have no idea when the results of my grievance will be released but i would hope it is before the end of August so I can enjoy the September weather.

Thanks to all for keeping fingers crossed.

[shropshire steve]

[quote="Topsy"]I sat in a tiny non-windowed room with a standalone AC and three colleagues on Monday afternoon.
After over an hour in that room

As a middle manager in the UK Civil Service i would regard it as a gross waste of public funds if one of my team managers spent an hour discussing clothing styles with one of their inspectors. As a taxpayer i think your management should be severely reprimanded for an extreme misappropriation of public funds by spending theirs and your paid time on this nonsense. Don't they have any real work to do?

After the DWP case when there was a ruling in favour of gender equality in clothing rules I would deem it a complete waste of time for any civil service manager to pursue any issue that carried any hint of differentiation on gender grounds.

Most officialdom does now tend to acknowlege quite sensibly that they are on to a loser if they start trying to formally hold to any gender differentiations. In my view all an organisation should do is, if it needs to, specify the acceptable smart clothing with no gender differentiation. It is then up to individuals and society to decide from the acceptable smart options which they are going to wear.
I have stayed at Hotels with work, some quite smart ones but whenever i have asked they have always been OK to accept me wearing a skirt. I expect they can see a minefield of trouble ahead if they did not.
Gender differentiations are a fluid concept for individuals and society to work out as they go along, they are not something for organisations to lay down the law about. the sooner all organisations realise this the better for us all.

[Milfmog]

After the DWP case when there was a ruling in favour of gender equality in clothing rules

Hi Steve,

I'm intrigued by this, did I miss something? I know nothing of the DWP case you're referring to, can you provide more information or a link?

Thanks,


Ian.

[skirttron]

Funnily enough, I went about in a kilt and trainers in Kent early this year when the temperature was freezing. I'm glad I didn't meet your Manager. In contrast to that guy's point of view, the thing I least like to do with my kilts is wear them with pulled-up socks and short black jackets - it's the 21st century, not the 18th. Maybe he's a Jacobite.

[shropshire steve]

Hi Steve,

I'm intrigued by this, did I miss something? I know nothing of the DWP case you're referring to, can you provide more information or a link?
Thanks, Ian.

There is still a reference to this case on the BBC news site;
http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/talking_point/2794223.stm
The case concerned equality over dress codes relating to collar and tie for men. But the key fact is that the guy won. As far as I am aware since then much officialdom (apart from those mentioned in this thread!) have been careful to avoid any overt rules over dress that have any gender distinction.
Regards Steve

[Milfmog]

Thanks for the link Steve.

I did some homework with my friend Mr Google and found loads of advice on dress codes and how they call fall into (or avoid) the gender discrimination trap.

As I understand it, the legal position is that it is legal to have dress codes that differentiate between the genders so long as neither gender is disadvantaged relative to the other. For instance it would be unacceptable to mandate that men to wear a shirt and tie but permit women to wear a heavy sweater in winter or a tee shirt in the summer.

With regards to Topsy's case, I suspect that if the dress code does not allow men to wear shorts but allows women the choice of trousers or skirts, he has a good case to get it amended. Of course the policy could be changed to allow men to wear shorts rather than allowing him to wear a skirt.

Like Topsy, we will have to wait and see what happens.

Fingers crossed folks.


Ian.

[Topsy]

The system is certainly dragging its heels in my case.

I received the record of my grievance last week and had a chance to point out a few typo errors. Only now will the managers ask for any papers they need to consider the issue. Ho hum.

My union rep and I had the same idea when we saw the grievance record, we'd ask for a full copy of the dress advice that staff and managers are asked (told) to follow. This should be interesting given that there is no written dress code. The request has been submitted under the FOI Act (Freedom of Information).

Onwards, slowly

[skirttron]

I do hope you succeed, Topsy. I have been amazed recently what I can wear in all the places I normally go except work without negative comment - including combining colourful tops with cotton kilt and trainers or sandals. I have not yet worn a skirt of any kind to work, although I have been given informal permission to wear a kilt since I was noticed wearing same in the world outside. I will be interested to see the outcome of your sartorial contretemps, though I would be much more wary of trying the same thing in the private sector.

[Topsy]

Skirttron

I still feel restricted as to what I can currently wear at work and my appearances are currently only known for pink and lilac shirts (no neck-tie!) and the occasional polo-shirt. My colourful tops are limited to home/leisure use and I regularly wear bright colours, stripes and other prints.

Of course, if I was female, any discussion like this would be irrelevent, I'd simply wear what I wanted to

:):):):)

[Topsy]

I checked my office emails just now and found the response to the grievance hearing.

Their response has been to say no - again - and to give me access to the next level to take it further. I will need to discuss this with my union rep later in the week.

Anyway, the reasons may be useful:

"Whilst <the office> does not have a definitive dress code, the Professional Standards pack circulated to all staff in 2005 makes it clear that standards of dress should not be about ‘taste’ or fashion, but about the importance of representing the <organisation>"

"As the law currently stands, if an employer has an overarching dress code requirement then it can legitimately impose different requirements on men and women if they are to meet that overall standard. "

"You admitted at our hearing that your request to wear a skirt was motivated by your right to choose what to wear and that you believe that the <organisation> should not interfere with that right"

The third one is the best, they are refusing my application on the grounds that I have a right to choose !

[Bravehearts.us]

I checked my office emails just now and found the response to the grievance hearing.

Their response has been to say no - again - and to give me access to the next level to take it further. I will need to discuss this with my union rep later in the week.

Anyway, the reasons may be useful:


The third one is the best, they are refusing my application on the grounds that I have a right to choose !

..."then it can legitimately impose different requirements on men and women"???????? Sounds like the same crap I got at work. Different standards based on your gender. But it's how they get away with tit...whoops..I mean it!