skirtcafe.org

Posted: **Thu Feb 02, 2023 12:32 am**

Barleymower wrote: ↑Wed Feb 01, 2023 2:33 pm
ScotL wrote: ↑Wed Feb 01, 2023 10:27 am
Barleymower wrote: ↑Wed Feb 01, 2023 7:54 am It was not an attack on you, you are entitled to copy whatever outdated pronouncements you choose.
Direct quote from you “Shame, you should know better.” Not sure how else to take that? Can you explain how this is not chastising me?

The term is not an outdated pronouncement. It is a clinical term. Whether you choose to believe that or not is on you.

I thought I was helping you and others by explaining the term from the medical point of view (field I’m in). I find knowledge to be important. Understanding why the word does not apply to us, I thought, could be helpful. Forgive me for trying.
I stand by my original assertion.

transvestism may be quoted in several journals / manuals of mental disorders an illness. The term is outdated and needs to be attached to a football, given to the best kicker and footed clean out of the stadium. The word is now seen as highly derogatory to the men who choose to dress as they choose. It has been softened to the term 'crossdresser' which is still unnecessary.

Whether or not it should be applied to 'us' is irrelevant. It should not be applied to anyone. There are no need for these labels. Dress as you want, enjoy your life, have fun. Anyone who is seeking to continue to promote and sustain archaic views needs revaluate who needs educating.

Barley, I do not understand why you cannot grasp this simple concept. Transvestism is not a mental disease. It only describes one who is sexually attracted to wearing the clothing of the opposite gender. The term is used solely to describe this phenomenon in a clinical sense. It absolutely does NOT describe the inherent worth of an individual.

Why don’t we retire it? Here’s what you are failing to understand and also suggests you do not work in a clinical field. Please correct me if I am wrong, but your failure to get this suggests otherwise. Men who find themselves sexually aroused to wearing women’s clothing are often distraught and believe something is wrong with them. This can create remarkable mental anguish causing significant mental disease. Good psychiatrists know it is not a disease and help the person deal with the idea that their sexual arousal, though different from others, is not wrong. They correct the anxiety, depression etc that may result from the person not seeking mental health expertise early enough.

Why don’t we retire the word? We can. As soon as you come up with another word that describes a person who becomes sexually aroused by wearing clothing from the opposite gender. This is the reason for the word. If you worked clinically, this would be obvious.

I believe your difficulty here is that you seem to be completely unable to dissociate the clinical term from what the knuckleheads use. Don’t be a knucklehead.

Posted: **Thu Feb 02, 2023 12:38 am**

Barleymower wrote:However described, in 'expert' clinical sense or in the vernacular, it makes men, who make their own decisions, feel uncomfortable with something which should be totally fine. I talked to F, my wife, about
it and saw things from a different perspective. Rightly or wrongly this is how it is seen: Women may dress
in whatever sexy clothes they want to wear and may or not feel as aroused by it. They will probably
not be aroused by because it is women's wear, belonging to women. If a man does the same then it is
perceived as, wrong. She quite agreed that it is nonsensical but that is the status quo. The same really
applies in their view to skirts. They are backed up by outdated diagnosis by 'psychiatric types'.
I know this forum is for straight men wearing skirts but in the eyes of many it is intrinsically intertwined.

This statement, "They are backed up by outdated diagnosis by 'psychiatric types'. " says quite a bit

Psychiatric Types and Outdated Diagnosis are, to me, key elements contributing to the culture of calling
any man who likes/enjoys 'softer things', . . . . Feminine.

Where, or when, did the "Psychiatric Types" get their 'training'

Look at early pictures of the "Psychiatric Types" and you'll see the high, starched, shirt collars and ties,
the clothes of their choice, showing their 'superior stance' in society. The 'Brainiacs' of their time.
The Freudian concepts, to me, are no longer valid. A 'stuffed shirt' was equivalent to superior, strong
people(macho-men). A person(man), who liked softer fabrics, cooking, clothing design, nursing was
considered to be feminine, as these 'topics' were deemed to be for/about women(the weaker sex).

The 'Psychiatric Types', to my knowledge, have never described a women, showing the reverse of
any of these traits, as non-feminine(Tom Boy, macho). Women can be as strong, or stronger, than men.
Women have become innovators in many fields of work, just like men.

Why can't a man be just as strong, or stronger, in areas which, historically, are reserved for women
who are considered to be 'the weaker sex'

Again, this boils down to two words: Double Standard.

We, Skirt Cafe' members, must continue working to change this 'Double Standard'. Clothing is a
choice, not a 'ball and chain' of a pre-programmed, pre-ordained life style, based on your sex.

I've rambled enough and need another cup of coffee........

Uncle Al

Posted: **Thu Feb 02, 2023 12:47 am**

To riff on the point that someone else here made to me earlier on this topic:

:troll:

Posted: **Thu Feb 02, 2023 6:58 am**

STEVIE wrote: ↑Wed Feb 01, 2023 10:44 pm
Barleymower wrote: ↑Wed Feb 01, 2023 6:44 pm I know this forum is for straight men wearing skirts but in the eyes of many it is intrinsically intertwined.
BM, this forum is for all men who want the freedom to wear what they wish.
For what it is worth, I was not trying to belittle the depth of your feelings but in-fighting and rising to the bait is futile.
When I used the "C" and "T" words, it was in the context of my own experience, the misconception of the need to appear as a female.
I won't apologise because it accurately describes my own motivation as it was at the time.
Frankly, I did not need any help to realise just how crappy that made me feel at the time, I managed that all by myself.
Over the past year or so, I will also say that my view has shifted somewhat, I do give a damn after all.
I don't have the answers because I don't believe there are any that I believe are definitive.
Perhaps it is actually the questions which are irrelevant, we just do, take it or leave it.
On that note, no more.
Steve.

Stevie, I didn't think for a moment that you did. All good.

Posted: **Thu Feb 02, 2023 9:08 am**

STEVIE wrote: ↑Wed Feb 01, 2023 10:44 pm
Barleymower wrote: ↑Wed Feb 01, 2023 6:44 pm I know this forum is for straight men wearing skirts but in the eyes of many it is intrinsically intertwined.
BM, this forum is for all men who want the freedom to wear what they wish.
For what it is worth, I was not trying to belittle the depth of your feelings but in-fighting and rising to the bait is futile.
When I used the "C" and "T" words, it was in the context of my own experience, the misconception of the need to appear as a female.
I won't apologise because it accurately describes my own motivation as it was at the time.
Frankly, I did not need any help to realise just how crappy that made me feel at the time, I managed that all by myself.
Over the past year or so, I will also say that my view has shifted somewhat, I do give a damn after all.
I don't have the answers because I don't believe there are any that I believe are definitive.
Perhaps it is actually the questions which are irrelevant, we just do, take it or leave it.
On that note, no more.
Steve.

Stevie, I saw your post first thing this morning and wanted to say something positive before heading out. I know I was being baited and rest assured I was not reacting in a way where I was getting in a froth. I did feel that this subject is something I feel strongly about and was prepared to discuss. The outcome I am seeing is that changing others opinion is almost impossible and probably why the T word still exists.
If I could achieve on thing it would be to see the back of the that word.
Trolls aside it was a useful discussion.

Posted: **Thu Feb 02, 2023 12:00 pm**

I am remarkably flummoxed by these last posts. Psychiatry uses the term transvestite for a simple description of anyone (not a gendered term, failure to understand this is telling) because psychiatrists are professionals. It is not an outdated term. It is useful in helping people. There is no anti-male agenda associated with the term clinically. There is no anti-men in skirts cabal that meets fortnightly in a super secret location but somehow maintains a Wikipedia page. It is a clinical term. Psychiatrists and learned individuals know it is mostly made up of men. It is remarkably rare to find a female transvestite but they exist. Suggesting they conveniently drop the fact that females are also transvestites to exert an agenda is incorrect. If you were asked what color lions were would you always say yellow except for those with albinism that are white? Every single time?

Honestly, the term doesn’t bother me because I am not one. I pass no judgement on those who are. It’s just life that comes in so many varieties that it’s actually wonderful. I do wonder why more men are transvestites and would postulate that it’s the combo of the taboo and the alluring feel of the fabrics. We don’t tend to think of transvestites as those who just put on mom jeans and a woman’s polo shirt. I think this is a more interesting discussion that getting worked up about a term that doesn’t apply to men interested in wearing skirts for fashion and comfort.

But the other day I had to reinstall my printer’s driver because it stopped working. So I googled it, watched a clip off YouTube, downloaded it from the printers website and reinstalled it. I feel like I am now an expert in IT. I can now start my own business and answer calls for others who any IT problems because I feel as if my ability to read the manual and watch 30 seconds of instruction qualify me to do so. I can now also code a better driver too than these outdated IT guys who made the first one that broke. Don’t you agree?

Posted: **Thu Feb 02, 2023 1:44 pm**

ScotL wrote: ↑Thu Feb 02, 2023 12:00 pm But the other day I had to reinstall my printer’s driver because it stopped working. So I googled it, watched a clip off YouTube, downloaded it from the printers website and reinstalled it. I feel like I am now an expert in IT. I can now start my own business and answer calls for others who any IT problems because I feel as if my ability to read the manual and watch 30 seconds of instruction qualify me to do so. I can now also code a better driver too than these outdated IT guys who made the first one that broke. Don’t you agree?

Now now now - be careful there. You might put some of us out of business if you keep going down that path!

I think the visceral reaction some of us have to the word is because of how society might think or label us, even though we aren't TV's. I also think CD's/TV's depiction in media (TV, movies, news, and actual bad people in the news) is the sticking point, though we may lash out at psychologists as the instigator of the stigma. Can you name any positive media representations of men wearing skirts pre 2016? I'd be hard pressed to, but I could certainly name a lot of bad or at least troublesome depictions: MASH, Monty Python, Glen or Glenda (movie), anytime a cop goes undercover as a woman, etc...

The point is - from my perspective - it's the public stigma the term has, not so much how it's used clinically.

Posted: **Thu Feb 02, 2023 2:50 pm**

ScotL wrote: ↑Thu Feb 02, 2023 12:00 pm I am remarkably flummoxed by these last posts. Psychiatry uses the term transvestite for a simple description of anyone (not a gendered term, failure to understand this is telling) because psychiatrists are professionals. It is not an outdated term. It is useful in helping people. There is no anti-male agenda associated with the term clinically. There is no anti-men in skirts cabal that meets fortnightly in a super secret location but somehow maintains a Wikipedia page. It is a clinical term. Psychiatrists and learned individuals know it is mostly made up of men. It is remarkably rare to find a female transvestite but they exist. Suggesting they conveniently drop the fact that females are also transvestites to exert an agenda is incorrect. If you were asked what color lions were would you always say yellow except for those with albinism that are white? Every single time?

Honestly, the term doesn’t bother me because I am not one. I pass no judgement on those who are. It’s just life that comes in so many varieties that it’s actually wonderful. I do wonder why more men are transvestites and would postulate that it’s the combo of the taboo and the alluring feel of the fabrics. We don’t tend to think of transvestites as those who just put on mom jeans and a woman’s polo shirt. I think this is a more interesting discussion that getting worked up about a term that doesn’t apply to men interested in wearing skirts for fashion and comfort.

But the other day I had to reinstall my printer’s driver because it stopped working. So I googled it, watched a clip off YouTube, downloaded it from the printers website and reinstalled it. I feel like I am now an expert in IT. I can now start my own business and answer calls for others who any IT problems because I feel as if my ability to read the manual and watch 30 seconds of instruction qualify me to do so. I can now also code a better driver too than these outdated IT guys who made the first one that broke. Don’t you agree?

Scot,
Please read again Uncle AL's post where he explains very well that psychiatry and psychiatrists explain, create illnesses and diagnose those illness based on their own view of world, their interpretations and their values. The other posters have valuable insights too, I just want draw your attention to AL's post.

Take two people side by side and dress them in the same clothes. Lets say for arguments sake they are both wearing soft silk underwear, tights, a dress and have applied makeup. They both love the clothes and feel sexy, glamourous and turned on (this is just for arguments sake). There is a group who look at the two people. To the first person they say "you look wonderful". To the second person they say "what's the matter with you? are you sick? take all that off and wear proper clothes". The first person has a wonderful day, the second removes the clothes and wears the proper clothes. The second person is saddened by the experience and because it is ongoing they become very depressed and seek help. They are told by medical professional, a psychiatrist that they are indeed ill and label them as a transvestite.
The point of saying this is: Had the two people been left alone and allowed to enjoy their own choice in clothes and one of them had not been stigmatised by society they would have gone on to live a happy healthy life without mental illness.

Society's interpretations and values are being challenged here. If these learned psychiatrists were always right then we would still be diagnosing Hysteria and committing women to mental asylums, there would be no such thing as lesbians, only boys have autism, only girls have anorexia.

Posted: **Thu Feb 02, 2023 4:52 pm**

The diagnoses of Fetishistic Transvestism and Dual Role Transvestism have been abandoned in ICD-11 and those are no longer valid diagnoses.

The term transvestite is not used any longer in psychiatry where the WHO ICD-11 is adopted.

Posted: **Thu Feb 02, 2023 5:30 pm**

Andy_G wrote: ↑Thu Feb 02, 2023 4:52 pmThe term transvestite is not used any longer in psychiatry where the WHO ICD-11 is adopted.

Some good news for once. Thanks!

Unfortunately, the USA doesn't use ICD-11, they use the old DSM.

Posted: **Thu Feb 02, 2023 5:37 pm**

I’m with Stevie on this one. This type of analysis is irrelevant and boring. Who gives a toss, anyway?

Posted: **Thu Feb 02, 2023 5:53 pm**

Discussion over. At last.

Posted: **Thu Feb 02, 2023 7:47 pm**

ScotL wrote: ↑Thu Feb 02, 2023 12:32 am Men who find themselves sexually aroused to wearing women’s clothing are often distraught and believe something is wrong with them. This can create remarkable mental anguish causing significant mental disease.

I'm not sure about often, but it's certainly not unusual. The "I put on a dress and got aroused, what's wrong with me?" question pops up up regularly on crossdressing forums. The answer is always: don't worry, it happens, it'll pass as you do it more often, totally not a problem. I'd hate to think people getting so distraught they'd need professional help.

I think the word "transvestite" has its place, but I consider crossdressing to be something else entirely. Having two words for the same thing is pointless.

Posted: **Fri Feb 03, 2023 12:01 am**

There are many words in language that have come to be used in a derogatory fashion even though they may be factually correct. Fortunately most have been removed from everyday usage. I suspect transvestite is one that should be put into that category. Professionals may believe it is factually correct but most 'Joe public' use/receive it in the derogatory sense.

Posted: **Fri Feb 03, 2023 1:07 am**

Coder wrote: ↑Thu Feb 02, 2023 1:44 pm
ScotL wrote: ↑Thu Feb 02, 2023 12:00 pm But the other day I had to reinstall my printer’s driver because it stopped working. So I googled it, watched a clip off YouTube, downloaded it from the printers website and reinstalled it. I feel like I am now an expert in IT. I can now start my own business and answer calls for others who any IT problems because I feel as if my ability to read the manual and watch 30 seconds of instruction qualify me to do so. I can now also code a better driver too than these outdated IT guys who made the first one that broke. Don’t you agree?
Now now now - be careful there. You might put some of us out of business if you keep going down that path!

I think the visceral reaction some of us have to the word is because of how society might think or label us, even though we aren't TV's. I also think CD's/TV's depiction in media (TV, movies, news, and actual bad people in the news) is the sticking point, though we may lash out at psychologists as the instigator of the stigma. Can you name any positive media representations of men wearing skirts pre 2016? I'd be hard pressed to, but I could certainly name a lot of bad or at least troublesome depictions: MASH, Monty Python, Glen or Glenda (movie), anytime a cop goes undercover as a woman, etc...

The point is - from my perspective - it's the public stigma the term has, not so much how it's used clinically.

Hahahahahaha!

This has been my point. The term as used by the lay public is used incorrectly. Just like all men who wear skirts are must be gay. A horribly wrong opinion by the lay public. Clothing doth not a person gay make. Just like men who wear skirts are “two years away from transitioning.” Another incorrect assumption by the lay public. The complicated nature of gender identity cannot be simplified just to wanting to wear a skirt. Just like men wearing skirts MUST be cross dressing whereas women never crossdress. Another faux pas. Many men of this cafe wear skirts for comfort and fashion and not to look like a woman. Read JeffBs signature on his posts.

We can get bent out of shape about the word or we can educate people as to who we really are. The only corner of the world we can control is our own.

skirtcafe.org

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