skirtcafe.org

The reality of what Virgin is doing is not opening up possibilities for men to have a choice of uniform, bur rather to allow people who are biologically male yet dislike being so regarded and call themselves "non-binary" to dress in the traditional women's uniform. If anything, this confirms the feminine status of skirts - it achieves nothing for regular guys who want a choice.

Stu wrote: ↑Tue Oct 04, 2022 4:24 pm If anything, this confirms the feminine status of skirts - it achieves nothing for regular guys who want a choice.

Especially since the only skirt option is a pencil skirt. It's barely practical for most female wearers, much less ones with male body proportions.

Stu wrote: ↑Tue Oct 04, 2022 4:24 pm The reality of what Virgin is doing is not opening up possibilities for men to have a choice of uniform, bur rather to allow people who are biologically male yet dislike being so regarded and call themselves "non-binary" to dress in the traditional women's uniform. If anything, this confirms the feminine status of skirts - it achieves nothing for regular guys who want a choice.

You’ve jumped to that conclusion. That’s not what virgin have actually said. There is nothing in their press announcement that says that men have to declare themselves non binary to wear a skirt and heels. I get the feeling that some people on this site look for problems that don’t exist. Take it at face value. I think what they have done here is a huge step forward.

steamman wrote: ↑Tue Oct 04, 2022 5:30 pm You’ve jumped to that conclusion. That’s not what virgin have actually said. There is nothing in their press announcement that says that men have to declare themselves non binary to wear a skirt and heels. I get the feeling that some people on this site look for problems that don’t exist. Take it at face value. I think what they have done here is a huge step forward.

Virgin admitted it was "part of an inclusivity drive" and their representative said: "we want to allow our people to wear the uniform that best suits them and how they identify and ensure our customers are addressed by their preferred pronouns.”

They then showed a man wearing the full female uniform with make-up and high heels.

What do they mean "inclusivity drive"? Virgin has always included men in their workforce. Why say "how they identify"? We know exactly what that means - it means those who do not identify as regular, cis-gendered men, and this "drive" was never about being given a genuine choice of garments the way women have a choice.

If you think this is a great step forward, you are kidding yourself. This is about Virgin showing their woke credentials and I suspect they will pay a price for that as people choose other airlines.

crfriend wrote: ↑Sun Oct 02, 2022 3:08 pm

new2skirts wrote: ↑Sun Oct 02, 2022 1:55 pmI looked at the person wearing the skirted ensemble (resembling young man of color with short hair), and upon looking at their Instagram feed, they aspire to be female as They/Her I assumed it was a regular straight man expanding his wardrobe

Well, there we have it. No forward motion for the vast percentage of the male population, and quite probably some retrograde motion because clearly in this case one needs to identify as trans-* to take advantage of the rule change. That'll scare the average bloke off faster than you say say, "Boo!".

Nice try Virgin, next time let's let the normals into the tent as well.

Honestly, this is the way I thought I thought the thing would play out. You get to wear the alternate uniform only if you identify as "alternate"; the other 95% of the population need not apply.

It won't hurt Virgin's bottom line, Richard B. is too shrewd for that, but it will set the woke types atwitter. In short, "Nothing to see here. Move on."

Richard B is just jumping on a popular bandwagon, as "Woke" is in fashion. Kanye West is making "White Lives Matter" T shirts, the world has gone mad

Having an alternative is good for men, but I would prefer a burgundy skirt as burgundy is obviously the men's uniform. All they are doing is allowing the "alternates" to wear the ladies uniform if they wish (the blouse may not fit a man, the arms would be cut thinner on the jacket) so it's not exactly a win-win. If there were obviously blokey blokes in that line up in a skirt, it would have gathered more traction.

When Arriva Sweden bus drivers wore skirts due to a shorts ban a few years back You could tell they were regular guys, rather than having Instagram profiles with them in an array of racy women's outfits including swimwear and lingerie
As you said, it only ingrains the idea that such fashion is out of the grasp of the average Joe who fancies a change of attire

I doubt that there will be any financial fallout from this, I think people are getting used to these sorts of shenanigans, and Branson both knows it, and wouldn't have pursued this course if he thought it would impact the bottom line. The question lies in how tired folks are of having it shoved in their faces full time and at full shrill volume. Sooner or later there is going to be a backlash.

On "preferred pronouns"; One, I do not get to pick in this arena, a pronoun is a structural component of the English language, and no-one who observes me is going to be capable of divining what "I might wish to be called". Two, I would not be overly offended if somebody called me ma'am to my back to get my attention, because it'll be plain when I turn around; however, if somebody called me "they", I would be deeply offended because (1) it's a misuse of the tongue, and it's (2) likely being done deliberately and they would get a quick English lesson. "They" is useful in the event where things are unknown, at least in the English I was taught (as in, "That's their business.").

And any straight guy who opts for the skirt as a style choice will be implicitly, and likely unwittingly, ticking the "trans-*" box on the HR form. That's hardly a sensible choice -- and we have no idea how those records are used and who has access to them.

As far as sense goes, if I had a say in this one it'd be trousers for flying crew, and skirted options for clerical ground crew (i.e. no skirts out on the aprons). I'd also offer a couple of different cuts of skirt because not all humans look good in "pencil" styles. And I'm sure that annoys more than a few women, especially if they're compelled to wear something that's not befitting to their body-type.

IMHO it should be safety first

Wear the uniform that is most appropriate for the job

The Flight Crew should be in trousers and conventional foot wear.

The Cabin Crew could wear either, yet, no high heels. High heels are
for "show" purposes and are not really practical (ie: safe) in this
environment. Also, P-Hose are not safe in case of a crash with a
resulting fire. The P-Hose melts onto the skin causing severe burns.
(I've yet to find a fire resistant P-Hose )

The Ground Crew should be in trousers on the ramp.

The Gate/Ticket Agents could wear either uniform as they are not in a position
of imminent physical danger.

Be safe, not sorry

Again, just my $.02 worth

Uncle Al

Al summed it up right here:

Uncle Al wrote: ↑Tue Oct 04, 2022 8:52 pmBe safe, not sorry

Have things appropriate to the role.

To Al's comment on Flight Crew (i.e. those on the flight deck actually flying/monitoring flight behaviours) trousers are the only way to go, and even his shot of what looked like an Airbus cockpit with its side-sticks points up how cramped that space is. Just try manoeuvring even a small skirt into either seat and you'll see why. Pilots (and where they still exist, Flight Engineers) also strap in using 5-point harnesses so they don't get tossed around if things get bumpy. Try that with a skirt.

Cabin Crew are exposed to the same environment as are the passengers, save that the passengers are mostly supposed to wear their seat-belts in case the aircraft hits turbulence. If the aircraft does without warning, the Cabin Crew may well be standing, which is why they get injured in nasty turbulence (so can any unrestrained passengers). Back when I still flew, I always remained strapped in, and am glad for it, for I was involved in a couple of large (like 500') drops where you can get to neutral or even negative G.

Ground Crew get exposed to the weather, the hazards of jet-blast and prop-wash (There's Old School!) which tends to throw anything on the ground about.

The indoor Terminal Operations staff, on the other hand, have it better off. There are no high winds, no (or usually not much) movement of floors, and few very tight spaces. Hence, more voluminous costume would work very nicely.

In other words, in the air it's inappropriate. The days of, "Coffee, tea, or me?" are over. Mercifully.

FLbreezy wrote: ↑Tue Oct 04, 2022 3:10 pm https://onemileatatime.com/news/non-bin ... ntic-crew/

A non-binary (now former) Virgin Atlantic cabin crew named Jaianni took to Facebook to share their disgust with Virgin Atlantic. Essentially Jaianni claims to be the person who pushed for this policy change at the airline, only to find that they were “erased” from the marketing campaign highlighting this policy change.

That article is hard to follow, I have to think hard about which "they" they're talking about.

moonshadow wrote: ↑Tue Oct 04, 2022 10:51 pmThat article is hard to follow, I have to think hard about which "they" they're talking about.

The hard-nosed answer would be to substitute the word "it" for the pronoun "they", but that'd be considered disrespectful. This is why the use of a neuter pronoun to describe an individual of known "gender/sex/whatever" is destructive. It hinders communication -- which is what language is all about.

The assumed "protagonist" in this is obviously "male" (XY chromosomal makeup), else there would have been no issue whatsoever as women have always had free reign on their "uniform" choices, thus the term "they" confuses needlessly.

Don't. Screw. With. The. Language. Full stop!

I vote for the old Southwest Airlines Uniform.

Uncle Al wrote: ↑Tue Oct 04, 2022 8:52 pm Also, P-Hose are not safe in case of a crash with a
resulting fire. The P-Hose melts onto the skin causing severe burns.
(I've yet to find a fire resistant P-Hose )

Uncle Al

This myth comes up all the time. Here’s why this isn’t a real concern. The premise is that nylon/spandex will melt and the heat of the melted polymers (basically plastic) burn deeper. That’s correct. Problem is, nylon and spandex are in many clothing options and ignite at temperatures over 700 degree Fahrenheit. Same thing for polyester. Why pick on pantyhose when these three fabrics are everywhere.

Plus if it gets that hot to melt them, skins getting burned regardless of what you’re wearing

crfriend wrote: ↑Tue Oct 04, 2022 11:11 pm

moonshadow wrote: ↑Tue Oct 04, 2022 10:51 pmThat article is hard to follow, I have to think hard about which "they" they're talking about.

The hard-nosed answer would be to substitute the word "it" for the pronoun "they", but that'd be considered disrespectful. This is why the use of a neuter pronoun to describe an individual of known "gender/sex/whatever" is destructive. It hinders communication -- which is what language is all about.

The assumed "protagonist" in this is obviously "male" (XY chromosomal makeup), else there would have been no issue whatsoever as women have always had free reign on their "uniform" choices, thus the term "they" confuses needlessly.

Don't. Screw. With. The. Language. Full stop!

If one of these persons broke into your car, it will be a hard time telling the cops "they smashed the rear window", causing police to look for more than one person

The thing is such folk will embrace the uniform choice, though there must be such a small amount who are steward(esses)... I understand such for those working in check in, or First Class / Business Class Lounge. I'm more concerned about my elbow getting smacked by the trolley as it comes down the aisle than what the person pushing it is wearing

Though I see the catwalks showing more skirted men, not so many unless super rich celebs with other agendas are embracing the trend... I see Instagrammers with the look, but not so many out and about (though last week, saw one young man in a very short flippy / circle skirt in London Kings Cross, though I doubt most women would have worn one as short)

Expect to see most guys in jeans skirts if the trend does catch on as summers get hotter

TSH wrote: ↑Mon Oct 03, 2022 3:31 pm

ScotL wrote: ↑Mon Oct 03, 2022 10:01 am You reap what you sow. People who are standoffish and hate interacting with others will see that other people treat them the same way. Breeds discontent.

I feel as though this is directly at me, because I don't go out of my way to make people realize that I'm introverted and my disorder makes me anxious around others after a certain period of time. I'm just subtle about it. I suppose I haven't done a good job explaining myself. I don't care much to be around people, but I still try to make the ones I do care about happy, and I generally don't want my standoffish behavior to offend anyone, regardless how I feel at a particular moment.

Outside of criminality, in all disputes, both sides need to improve. Perhaps you also need to see the good that happens right in front of you. I hope you continue to grow and keep your anger at bay.

I do, but that doesn't mean I should ignore the awfulness that's around me, either. I'm still trust in the process that I'll learn and mature more as I get older.

I used to be a profound introvert but college hazing beat me it out of me.

Sorry if you feel this is directed at you, I just thought we were having a conversation via posting.

But as a former introvert who now looks back at himself, I see where my stand-off nature that came from being an introvert drive me deeper down that rabbit hole.

There was a study done unethically on Facebook where they showed that people with negativity breed interactions that are negative. People with positivity breed positive interactions.

Personally the best way I’ve come to be is polite and friendly but not a push over. If someone is being rude, they need to be called rude but not insulted.

ScotL wrote: ↑Wed Oct 05, 2022 1:04 amI used to be a profound introvert but college hazing beat me it out of me.

Interestingly, I used to be very much an introvert, and that started to change when I started wearing skirts because I had to project confidence. My late ex- once commented that it was like watching a flower blossom the change was so profound.

There was a study done unethically on Facebook[....]

Unethically and Facebook in the same sentence? You're being redundant there.

Personally the best way I’ve come to be is polite and friendly but not a push over. If someone is being rude, they need to be called rude but not insulted.

Indeed, and that is the best approach in the vast majority of cases; however, if somebody is repeatedly rude to me I will call them out on it up to, and including, outright insults if the need arises. Usually, though, I just walk away. Some folks are just not worth the time of day.