Virgin updates uniform policy

[new2skirts]

I love this in the comments section :-

Jordi Sharpe 1 day ago

Good. They look fine. Clothing shouldn't be gender exclusive. Men in skirts and blazers? Fabulous. And I'm a straight guy, so you can take that to the bank, homophobes. It has nothing to do with sexual orientation. It's about being true to who you are inside. Quit being such pussies about it.

I think a lot of people are changing their attitude towards unbifurcated clothes, in the last month or so, there's been news of King Charles in his kilted ensembles, even wearing one in London at the mourning of the Queen (he usually only wears it in Scotland), A$AP Rocky in his leather skirt, and now this campaign by Virgin. I think most have bigger concerns like cost of living to worry about what someone else wears.

The usual protesters are keyboard warriors hoping to get a laugh or attention, or those brave enough to shout from a group or passing car. It would be interesting to see if any straight guys embrace the look (though dealing with tights, comfy underwear, a bright red skirt might be a tall order), there should be a skirt option in the Burgundy as well

A lot of national radio shows covered this in the UK, including a very conservative presenter, who didn't pour scorn on the topic as I expected and the responses are more towards getting to ones destination in one peice, and Virgin fixing up in other areas (quality of broadband for internet, prices etc)...

[STEVIE]

What the hell is wrong with red for a guy, I love it.
I may have "outgrown" the pencil design, but I would not hesitate over a skirt in that colour.
Good comments though and surely no Cafe member could disagree.
Steve.

[TSH]

Everyone you meet in life is going through their own struggles you know nothing about; be kind.

Do not think for a moment I was being cold or callous in my comment! 'Tis very far from it, it's more a tale of caution so you don't accidentally harm.

And absolutely, be kind in how you treat others.

It's usually (falsely) attributed to Mahatma Ghandi but, "Be the change you want to see in the world." It's a magnificent sentiment, and ought to be taken as marching orders by the capable.

Never give up on someone

That ship sailed once I got to junior high. I agree with the principle of generally being nice to others, but I'm far past done expecting anything from people. People never change willingly; they do so only when it's convenient to them.

[ScotL]

Do not think for a moment I was being cold or callous in my comment! 'Tis very far from it, it's more a tale of caution so you don't accidentally harm.

And absolutely, be kind in how you treat others.

It's usually (falsely) attributed to Mahatma Ghandi but, "Be the change you want to see in the world." It's a magnificent sentiment, and ought to be taken as marching orders by the capable.

Never give up on someone

That ship sailed once I got to junior high. I agree the principle of generally being nice to others, but I'm far past done expecting anything from people. People never change willingly; they do so only when it's convenient to them.

We all get to make our own choices in life about how we act. Personally, and I am speaking only for myself, I cannot expect others to be nice, tolerant, willingly change for the better… if I do not actively do the same things I want to see in others. I’ve seen amazing changes in people simply by being friendly to them and not giving up when the initial reaction to me is not positive or welcoming.

Just like our interpretations of what others may perceive of us skirted, we don’t actually know what’s going on in their heads. We may jump to a hasty conclusion that any reaction outside of glowingly positive is a bad reaction. But that can’t be true. Ive had more spontaneously positive reactions wearing a kilt than any other garment. One guy stopped his car and got out just to compliment me. Who does that? But not everyone is so unabashedly positive. Ive yet to really have a negative reaction. I think most people are not against me wearing a kilt but it’s new to them and they are somewhat flummoxed in their reaction.

I think this can be said about anyone and not just about seeing someone skirted. I feel like most people are somewhat inhibited at being friendly at first. And as a species, humans always seem to misinterpret reactions towards the negative more than the positive.

Whether Grandhi said it or not, the meaning of the phrase “be the change you want to see in the world” should be a mantra. Especially from a group desiring the rest of the people to let us wear what we want.

My two cents.

[Coder]

I think a lot of people are changing their attitude towards unbifurcated clothes, in the last month or so, there's been news of King Charles in his kilted ensembles, even wearing one in London at the mourning of the Queen (he usually only wears it in Scotland), A$AP Rocky in his leather skirt, and now this campaign by Virgin. I think most have bigger concerns like cost of living to worry about what someone else wears.

I'm hoping this is true. However, I did the stupid thing of doing some news searches last night and stumbled upon two places where the comments and articles aren't so kind. One, a video by a well-known conservative personality, and two a fox news article.

The video - search YouTube for "Airline Descends Into Woke Madness" (don't want to link to it) - focused on the non-binary/trans feeling of the advertising campaign. And I think that's where Virgin went "off the rails" so to speak. They hired a drag show judge to help usher in the new policies (from what I can gather, the uniform's themselves haven't changed), the intro video was campy and a bit oddball for the normies out there. I'm not making any judgements - but radical advertising like that is going to drive controversy. Perhaps that was the intent. Anyhow, I found the conservative commentator's comments disheartening for a variety of reasons, mostly towards the 7:20 minute mark where he states that certain groups of people who are branded as individualistic end up falling into a mold of conformity (drag queens, non-binary people) - but then claims that there is a larger variety of styles found among conservative men and women. For women this is true because they have an infinite variety of choice. That's just bunk for men! There are differences but they are subtle so as to not even be noteworthy. Every group out there has its own look and you tend not to see variety amongst them. It's as if people say "I agree with what this group stands for, the easiest way to show it is to dress like the others in the group". A uniform, so to speak. It's as if uniformity is a sign of falseness. He also goes on to talk about roles and being an individual - but is majorly missing the point that one can dress appropriately in a situation - let some of your personality through - and still conform to the corporate mothership that some people defer to/worship. I also think he's reading too much into the "be yourself" mantra that is being pushed everywhere, including the campaign. Airlines have a huge set of standards for women - very few for men - and some of those standards are stupidly restrictive and push ideals that are sometimes unachievable. Giving employees more choice - all within the standard of a set uniform policy - isn't a bad thing. Customers can decide whether or not those changes are good or not. And that's my last point - I see so much doublespeak on both sides of the political aisle it's disheartening. On the one hand - muh freedoms - but the other - you must conform to MY ideals. Liking what one corporation does and not another because it doesn't fit your agenda. Frankly, that statement works for both sides of the political spectrum these days, it's just which freedom's we are talking about, and which ideals we are living up to. And the comments... there was "that one guy" who said it was a sin for men to wear dresses... but also for women to wear pants . Then you had some who were like, "but pants can be cut in a feminine way" which was also very . If that's true, then a skirt/dress can be cut in a masculine way - problem solved! Sorry for the rant.

I like Skirt Cafe for the very reason that the only underlying principal here is "men wear a skirt", but we don't have one set ideal. We argue about denim, drab/bright colors, length, accessories and so forth, what makes a masculine skirt and whether that matters or not. Sometimes "skirt=pants replacement" is a bit conformist, but it's an easy way to get started and from there you can try out different styles.

The news article focused on the policy itself and didn't put a spin one way or the other, but the comments were disheartening as expected.

[TSH]

Never give up on someone

That ship sailed once I got to junior high. I agree with the principle of generally being nice to others, but I'm far past done expecting anything from people. People never change willingly; they do so only when it's convenient to them.

We all get to make our own choices in life about how we act. Personally, and I am speaking only for myself, I cannot expect others to be nice, tolerant, willingly change for the better… if I do not actively do the same things I want to see in others. I’ve seen amazing changes in people simply by being friendly to them and not giving up when the initial reaction to me is not positive or welcoming.

Perhaps my posts might come as bitterly pessimistic, but did these people really change just by the simple act of kindness? Or did not want to cause any tension between you?

Just like our interpretations of what others may perceive of us skirted, we don’t actually know what’s going on in their heads. We may jump to a hasty conclusion that any reaction outside of glowingly positive is a bad reaction. But that can’t be true. Ive had more spontaneously positive reactions wearing a kilt than any other garment. One guy stopped his car and got out just to compliment me. Who does that? But not everyone is so unabashedly positive. Ive yet to really have a negative reaction. I think most people are not against me wearing a kilt but it’s new to them and they are somewhat flummoxed in their reaction.

And it's great that you've received compliments for wearing a kilt, but how many of those same people would've comment on you wearing a skirt that's not attributed specifically for men?

Whether Grandhi said it or not, the meaning of the phrase “be the change you want to see in the world” should be a mantra. Especially from a group desiring the rest of the people to let us wear what we want.

That's something I can agree with. To be frank, it's something I've inspired to be since childhood.

I'm hoping this is true. However, I did the stupid thing of doing some news searches last night and stumbled upon two places where the comments and articles aren't so kind. One, a video by a well-known conservative personality, and two a fox news article.

I took a glance at the comments of the latter, and I tried to find a few semi-intelligent humans, but decided to opt out of reading the rest of that trash from under the article.

The video - search YouTube for "Airline Descends Into Woke Madness" (don't want to link to it) - focused on the non-binary/trans feeling of the advertising campaign. And I think that's where Virgin went "off the rails" so to speak. They hired a drag show judge to help usher in the new policies (from what I can gather, the uniform's themselves haven't changed), the intro video was campy and a bit oddball for the normies out there. I'm not making any judgements - but radical advertising like that is going to drive controversy. Perhaps that was the intent. Anyhow, I found the conservative commentator's comments disheartening for a variety of reasons, mostly towards the 7:20 minute mark where he states that certain groups of people who are branded as individualistic end up falling into a mold of conformity (drag queens, non-binary people) - but then claims that there is a larger variety of styles found among conservative men and women. For women this is true because they have an infinite variety of choice. That's just bunk for men! There are differences but they are subtle so as to not even be noteworthy. Every group out there has its own look and you tend not to see variety amongst them.

Matt Walsh is a self-entitled, instigating jackass who professes himself as someone level-headed and logical, when he's woefully ignorant on just about every topic he discusses. His Twitter is some of the most deplorable drivel I've ever read on that site, and that's saying a lot. He's the embodiment of the Daily Wire, full stop. Try not to read too much into anything he says in the future; it's almost guaranteed to be the inane ramblings of an imbecile with the worst case of the Dunning-Kruger effect.

And the comments... there was "that one guy" who said it was a sin for men to wear dresses... but also for women to wear pants . Then you had some who were like, "but pants can be cut in a feminine way" which was also very . If that's true, then a skirt/dress can be cut in a masculine way - problem solved! Sorry for the rant.

Should also mentioned Walsh made a video on why men "shouldn't wear dresses" about a year ago. He made tweet or two about it, as well. No, Walsh. F*** you. Either EVERYONE should wear whatever the hell they want, or pants and suits shouldn't be worn by women, either. These damn hypocrites would never take that stance because they'll realize just how bigoted they are.

[moonshadow]

Should also mentioned Walsh made a video on why men "shouldn't wear dresses" about a year ago. He made tweet or two about it, as well. No, Walsh. F*** you. Either EVERYONE should wear whatever the hell they want, or pants and suits shouldn't be wore by women, either. These damn hypocrites would never take that stance because they'll realize just how bigoted they are.

Imagine living in the head of someone like that, someone who actually believes that everyone should cater to their own narrow world view... the ego of that one is astonishing!

I pity people like that, the anger and rage they must have to live with day in and day out because.... dag-gummit the world just won't cooperate!

[Coder]

Should also mentioned Walsh made a video on why men "shouldn't wear dresses" about a year ago. He made tweet or two about it, as well. No, Walsh. F*** you. Either EVERYONE should wear whatever the hell they want, or pants and suits shouldn't be wore by women, either. These damn hypocrites would never take that stance because they'll realize just how bigoted they are.

Imagine living in the head of someone like that, someone who actually believes that everyone should cater to their own narrow world view... the ego of that one is astonishing!

My problem is I have a family member who finds his videos hilariously on point. I found out about the video because I sent her a comment jokingly "you should fly virgin airlines now" because I wanted to see her response (ok, I might have been fishing for a specific response). She then proceeded to tell me about his "hilarious take" on the airline announcement.

As for the narrow view of the world - it's a weird thing to observe happening in real time. I mean - clothes are clothes - we have imbued them with genderific meaning - but ultimately it's just cloth. Styles, mores change and while I hate change, that's what happens over time, no avoiding it. I feel this slow, steady move to a more accepting culture has some benefits, namely not being told you have a mental disorder because you want to... wait for it... wear a skirt (he mentions mental disorder several times in the video, I think. Not going to watch it again.). But yeah - narrow view. I don't know why they don't see it like that - I think they are too caught up in what they perceive to be "normal" which is just the current flavor of clothing of today, and anything that steps outside of that box is, well, "disordered" and that ultimately is "bad".

I pity people like that, the anger and rage they must have to live with day in and day out because.... dag-gummit the world just won't cooperate!

It's a shame, really. Their general stance should be "I don't like that you wear a skirt, but gosh gee, I'll fight for your right to wear it and be free". I have a feeling a lot of the rhetoric has amped up on both sides, and in order to be heard above the noise people need to be brasher and brasher with, well, everything - their words, discussion topics, etc...

[Coder]

Should also mentioned Walsh made a video on why men "shouldn't wear dresses" about a year ago.

Ugh, I had to go down the rabbit hole and find that video. I then read the comments and found this gem:

jacen
@Tiny Green Guy Women started wearing pants because it was advertised to them. Dresses were never encouraged to men. And nobody said Harry styles wasn't a man so none of that even matters. Dresses are made for women so it isn't more comfortable than something that actually fits the proportions of a man.

Tiny Green Guy
@jacen so if dresses were advertised to men it would be ok

jacen
@Tiny Green Guy Yes, if the dress was advertised to guys instead of girls back then. But they weren't so it's too late.

jacen
@Tiny Green Guy they would also have to be the right proportions so it wouldn't really look like a dress we have today

I can't tell if jacen is a troll, trying to be funny/sarcastic, but I had to share as this was too funny. It brings up so many questions - under who's authority was this advertisement created under? Why do they have the last, final say on things? Why can't we just start advertising now? And there must have been a date that clothes could be swapped - but after that date no more changes could be made.

Sorry for derailing the thread a bit.

[ScotL]

Yep, TSH, I find your comments to be bitterly pessimistic.

“Perhaps my posts might come as bitterly pessimistic, but did these people really change just by the simple act of kindness? Or did not want to cause any tension between you?”

I ask you though. If you ran into someone “bitterly pessimistic” would you want what they were selling? I wouldn’t. Why do salespeople act so positive? Ever hear the used car salesman technique of selling?

I can’t and won’t tell a person how to be but I’ll make suggestions. I think bitterly pessimistic is gonna make those you interact with (regardless of being skirted) react the same way.

Whether or not random acts of kindness changed anyones heart or mind? Don’t know. But I know I have a better chance of doing that with a random act of kindness than bitter pessimism.

[ScotL]

Don’t know who Matt Walsh is but not going down that rabbit hole like Coder did. I just don’t care. Seems he’s trying to be a “shock jock” but that’s basically how they get viewership and followers. Make outlandish statements and encourage angry discord whether he believes in what he’s saying or not.

I’d forget about what he’s saying.

And about family members loving him, I have similar family members who like a different guy. When they ask me excitedly about things he says, I’m indifferent or point out the BS. It’s easy with the guy my person likes. But I know when I’m negative about it, they dig in and like him even more.

[moonshadow]

Don’t know who Matt Walsh is but not going down that rabbit hole like Coder did. I just don’t care. Seems he’s trying to be a “shock jock” but that’s basically how they get viewership and followers. Make outlandish statements and encourage angry discord whether he believes in what he’s saying or not.

Yep, people like that basically profit and feed on fear and prejudice. There are people like that everywhere on all sides of an issue.

As for the comments. I'd not put too much bank on those either way. People are going to be asses online... oh how they do love to beat their own chest. Just rise above it, and don't feed the sewer.

Full disclosure: I never read the comments, other than skimming a few that were posted here. Honestly, I couldn't care less about the random opinions of people.

[Uncle Al]

<snip>. I then read the comments and found this gem:

jacen
@Tiny Green Guy Women started wearing pants because it was advertised to them. <snip>

START
This is TOTALLY FALSE Learn your history people. These 'responders' haven't got a clue as to WHY women started
wearing pants. It sure wasn't "advertisements". ( ) It was due WW-II because women took the place of the men,
in the factories, building war materials. Skirts and dresses were dangerous around the machinery's moving parts.
I really hate dislike it when people don't know the facts, or reasons, behind why something was done the way it was.
END

This picture is kind of appropriate in today's world

Quit Catering To The 1% JPG 2022-09-30.jpg

jacen - quoted above - has to be a founding member of the 1%.......

Uncle Al

[STEVIE]

Agreed Al,
This from the first World War in a UK munitions factory.
I'd lay odds that the experience gained led to the difference in WW2. However, that was not based on the wellbeing of the workers but the cost in economic and production terms.
The earliest fashion freedoms for women were not sold to them, the women took them. The commercial interests grew from there and the rest is history that we are familiar with.
Likewise, this "initiative" from Virgin. If they thought that the affect would have proved negative to their profit margins, then Jimmy's skirt would never have left the runway.

And it's great that you've received compliments for wearing a kilt, but how many of those same people would've comment on you wearing a skirt that's not attributed specifically for men?

I don't ever wear a kilt and I have had plenty positive "guy" comments.

Steve.

[new2skirts]

I think a lot of people are changing their attitude towards unbifurcated clothes, in the last month or so, there's been news of King Charles in his kilted ensembles, even wearing one in London at the mourning of the Queen (he usually only wears it in Scotland), A$AP Rocky in his leather skirt, and now this campaign by Virgin. I think most have bigger concerns like cost of living to worry about what someone else wears.

I'm hoping this is true. However, I did the stupid thing of doing some news searches last night and stumbled upon two places where the comments and articles aren't so kind. One, a video by a well-known conservative personality, and two a fox news article.

The video - search YouTube for "Airline Descends Into Woke Madness" (don't want to link to it) - focused on the non-binary/trans feeling of the advertising campaign. And I think that's where Virgin went "off the rails" so to speak. They hired a drag show judge to help usher in the new policies (from what I can gather, the uniform's themselves haven't changed), the intro video was campy and a bit oddball for the normies out there. I'm not making any judgements - but radical advertising like that is going to drive controversy. Perhaps that was the intent. Anyhow, I found the conservative commentator's comments disheartening for a variety of reasons, mostly towards the 7:20 minute mark where he states that certain groups of people who are branded as individualistic end up falling into a mold of conformity (drag queens, non-binary people) - but then claims that there is a larger variety of styles found among conservative men and women. For women this is true because they have an infinite variety of choice. That's just bunk for men! There are differences but they are subtle so as to not even be noteworthy. Every group out there has its own look and you tend not to see variety amongst them. It's as if people say "I agree with what this group stands for, the easiest way to show it is to dress like the others in the group". A uniform, so to speak. It's as if uniformity is a sign of falseness. He also goes on to talk about roles and being an individual - but is majorly missing the point that one can dress appropriately in a situation - let some of your personality through - and still conform to the corporate mothership that some people defer to/worship. I also think he's reading too much into the "be yourself" mantra that is being pushed everywhere, including the campaign. Airlines have a huge set of standards for women - very few for men - and some of those standards are stupidly restrictive and push ideals that are sometimes unachievable. Giving employees more choice - all within the standard of a set uniform policy - isn't a bad thing. Customers can decide whether or not those changes are good or not. And that's my last point - I see so much doublespeak on both sides of the political aisle it's disheartening. On the one hand - muh freedoms - but the other - you must conform to MY ideals. Liking what one corporation does and not another because it doesn't fit your agenda. Frankly, that statement works for both sides of the political spectrum these days, it's just which freedom's we are talking about, and which ideals we are living up to. And the comments... there was "that one guy" who said it was a sin for men to wear dresses... but also for women to wear pants . Then you had some who were like, "but pants can be cut in a feminine way" which was also very . If that's true, then a skirt/dress can be cut in a masculine way - problem solved! Sorry for the rant.

I like Skirt Cafe for the very reason that the only underlying principal here is "men wear a skirt", but we don't have one set ideal. We argue about denim, drab/bright colors, length, accessories and so forth, what makes a masculine skirt and whether that matters or not. Sometimes "skirt=pants replacement" is a bit conformist, but it's an easy way to get started and from there you can try out different styles.

The news article focused on the policy itself and didn't put a spin one way or the other, but the comments were disheartening as expected.

Coder, I looked at the person wearing the skirted ensemble (resembling young man of color with short hair), and upon looking at their Instagram feed, they aspire to be female as They/Her I assumed it was a regular straight man expanding his wardrobe

I guess it's a start, but it may be a while before a red blooded male just throws on a skirt instead of trousers to walk up and down the aisle for a few hours. Some are bold enough to wear a denim skirt in place of shorts on a hot day, or wear a skirt due to a shorts ban at school or work, but despite Ru Paul's Drag Race (behind this latest drive) being a regular feature of UK TV, there's very little uptake from the man in the street.

It will be the very flamboyant who embrace the look, but it will be with makeup and everything else... When we see a regular man in a skirt sat at Border Control to check in passports and luggage, or driving the transfer shuttle bus, then I'll know it's really taking off (pun intended)