skirtcafe.org

new2skirts wrote: ↑Sun Oct 02, 2022 1:55 pm Coder, I looked at the person wearing the skirted ensemble (resembling young man of color with short hair), and upon looking at their Instagram feed, they aspire to be female as They/Her I assumed it was a regular straight man expanding his wardrobe

I guess it's a start, but it may be a while before a red blooded male just throws on a skirt instead of trousers to walk up and down the aisle for a few hours. Some are bold enough to wear a denim skirt in place of shorts on a hot day, or wear a skirt due to a shorts ban at school or work, but despite Ru Paul's Drag Race (behind this latest drive) being a regular feature of UK TV, there's very little uptake from the man in the street.

It will be the very flamboyant who embrace the look, but it will be with makeup and everything else... When we see a regular man in a skirt sat at Border Control to check in passports and luggage, or driving the transfer shuttle bus, then I'll know it's really taking off (pun intended)

I really think the trouble stems from this idea that men have to appropriate skirted looks exactly how women do it - not just the look but the personality, etc... That is, they aren't just garbing themselves with clothes but with a personality. For them, the skirt in itself is a "uniform of femininity". I really think we can blow past all that while adopting/integrating their choices into our wardrobes - just like they do with ours. But designers need to get out of this mindset. Create something that reinvents women's styles - do a floral, but maybe have it use tiny power tools for the flowers (I'm joking ).

Opening up a uniform policy is a great first step, but their campaign is heavily draped in identity - which is sort of odd because "being yourself" and "uniqueness" are slightly at odds with a uniform policy from a corporate behemoth, but I digress. I think the real crux is the following: If it's a fashion/style choice, immediately that means the guy in a skirt / woman in pants is a CDer. If they identify as a woman/non-binary, then their clothing choices "make sense" and all is right with the world.

new2skirts wrote: ↑Sun Oct 02, 2022 1:55 pmI looked at the person wearing the skirted ensemble (resembling young man of color with short hair), and upon looking at their Instagram feed, they aspire to be female as They/Her I assumed it was a regular straight man expanding his wardrobe

Well, there we have it. No forward motion for the vast percentage of the male population, and quite probably some retrograde motion because clearly in this case one needs to identify as trans-* to take advantage of the rule change. That'll scare the average bloke off faster than you say say, "Boo!".

Nice try Virgin, next time let's let the normals into the tent as well.

Honestly, this is the way I thought I thought the thing would play out. You get to wear the alternate uniform only if you identify as "alternate"; the other 95% of the population need not apply.

It won't hurt Virgin's bottom line, Richard B. is too shrewd for that, but it will set the woke types atwitter. In short, "Nothing to see here. Move on."

Coder wrote: ↑Sun Oct 02, 2022 2:27 pm
Opening up a uniform policy is a great first step

You said it all here. A “first step”. We can read too much into what it “truly means” but in the end we just don’t know. We can pretend we know from all of our experiences that it means the sky is falling but the truth is this is just one step. Nothing more, nothing less.

crfriend wrote: ↑Sun Oct 02, 2022 3:08 pm Well, there we have it. No forward motion for the vast percentage of the male population, and quite probably some retrograde motion because clearly in this case one needs to identify as trans-* to take advantage of the rule change. That'll scare the average bloke off faster than you say say, "Boo!".

Well of course they are Carl. Those are tight pencil skirts designed to accentuate the feminine curves of a woman's legs. And, lacking any hormonal intervention, there are distinct differences between male and female upper legs and thighs. Trans or no trans, I can't see too many "ordinary western men" adopting that look. It is VERY womanly.

Looking back through history, through all of the various cultures of men wearing skirts and skirt like garments, I can think of no culture of men that wore anything resembling a tight pencil skirt. Those skirts are a fashion trend etched in the mid to late 20th century. Prior to that I can think of nobody that wore the style, men or women. Interestingly, pencil skirts have been around about as long as commercial aviation.

You all know my dislike of pencil skirts in general, so if I were working for Virgin, given the choice, I'd probably just wear the men's suit.... okay... maybe the women's suit just to be "that guy".

There is no way manly men are going to adopt such a look. Hell Carl, you don't even wear pencils... most here don't. Mark does, but honestly I don't see too may men adopting his look despite how many times he tries to inject "masculinity" into his articles.

So if I may, I'd be interested in exploring what a more "masculine" adoptable skirted garment might be for the airline industry to try with men. Remember, it needs to be a look that most men [and women] would find agreeable. Of the top of my head, the red has got to go, along with the pencil cut. Perhaps perhaps just a plain panel a line skirt to the knees, maybe a little bit lower, coupled with a ordinary top and perhaps a dark colored waistcoat, some nice shoes. For some reason I think a kilt would look out of place here too, but then again I'll admit my bias. I'm also not a big fan of kilts either.

All this being said, I think the uniforms look fine, very professional, and so forth, and if the non-binary folk are fine with it, then I take no issue with it. I'm just saying that given the choice, I'm not wearing a pencil skirt with heels. If it's that or the suit, I choose the suit. Regarding those in the photos, I'd say it's a fine looking bunch! Everyone is clean cut, crisp, and confident. I'm just saying that for me, I'd prefer the suit, and that's coming from me... a self described "feminine guy". To each their own!

I think a straight skirt might work too and be more in line with "professional attire (need barf emoji)". I basically wore one the other day to work. They aren't great for mobility - which boggles my mind when I see women wearing pencil skirts which have little to no mobility. And forget the heels. Virgin Airlines allows flats, so the footwear in the video was likely a stylistic choice (unless they have to wear heels with skirts).

moonshadow wrote: ↑Sun Oct 02, 2022 5:24 pm So if I may, I'd be interested in exploring what a more "masculine" adoptable skirted garment might be for the airline industry to try with men. Remember, it needs to be a look that most men [and women] would find agreeable. Of the top of my head, the red has got to go, along with the pencil cut. Perhaps perhaps just a plain panel a line skirt to the knees, maybe a little bit lower, coupled with a ordinary top and perhaps a dark colored waistcoat, some nice shoes. For some reason I think a kilt would look out of place here too, but then again I'll admit my bias. I'm also not a big fan of kilts either.

A-line would be a great start. It could even have a bit of asymmetry or stitching to give it an "official" look about it. Something to set it apart from a regular skirt you can buy off the street.

Coder wrote: ↑Sun Oct 02, 2022 5:48 pmI think a straight skirt might work too and be more in line with "professional attire (need barf emoji)".

Like this .. {puker} {pukel} Change the { .. } for : :

Coder wrote:A-line would be a great start. It could even have a bit of asymmetry or stitching to give it an "official" look about it.
Something to set it apart from a regular skirt you can buy off the street.

I can see where an A-Line skirt would not work. Too much material and it could catch on anything while walking
down the aisle. Also the A-Line would 'attack' the passengers as the person walked by. The pencil, or straight,
skirt works better for ease of movement down the aisle and not bothering, or brushing against, the passengers.
(I have an airline/aviation background.)

Just my $.02 worth

Uncle Al

Interesting comment from a younger person of my acquaintance and she said,
"There are enough "flamboyant" men in the air travel sector that the uptake may be higher than we expect".
In context, that young lady is extremely aware of the gender politics involved as she is currently in a Master's degree course in civil rights.
As for the skirt design itself, it shouldn't beyond Virgin to offer 2 designs, 1 straight/pencil and an A-line. The A-line needn't be so full as to put passengers in a flap, just enough to accommodate a wider gait.
What they will not do is offer one like a kilt that is inherently seen as masculine.
As I said the first "bloke" who does will be one brave soldier, but Virgin will take the credit as the caring facilitators that they patently are.
He may have to work stupid hours and get paid a pittance, but he can be happy that he has been granted the right to wear the garent of his choice for as long as it takes Big Chief Branson to think up another money spinner.
When it comes to the profit motive, cynical does not do my attitude justice one iota.
Steve.

moonshadow wrote: ↑Sun Oct 02, 2022 5:24 pmWell of course they are Carl. Those are tight pencil skirts designed to accentuate the feminine curves of a woman's legs. And, lacking any hormonal intervention, there are distinct differences between male and female upper legs and thighs. Trans or no trans, I can't see too many "ordinary western men" adopting that look. It is VERY womanly.

For the sole sake of being a bit contrarian -- which all regulars know I am -- I'll say "yes", pencis skirts are mostly suited to women and not men. Why is this so? Take a look at the geometry of the average male. Men tend to be taller than women; some vastly so. Hence, pencil skirts are an unpleasant hindrance to
motion or activity. A-line styles suit men vastly better, and w can look to the designs of antiquity to see that in action, e.g. the Albanian/Greek fustanella. "Pencils" are a fairly new phenomenon, and are clearly aimed at inhibiting motion (and they do in women as well, especially tall ones).

My primary gripe about the Virgin move revolves around the implication that one most be on the "trans-* spectrum" to qualify to wear the "alternate uniform" rather than doing away with boundaries altogether. All Virgin are doing is solidifying the signifier that skirt == female ("identity") (The "==" is the C [0] notion for equality, as a single "=" indicates an assignment).

A-lines do not have to be so wide as to cause problems, even in aircraft settings, or otherwise "enclosed" environments; they just need to be large enough to not impede natural motion. A-lines were also the go-to style before the waif-like modern notion of womanhood came into vogue (which has brought blessings to guys because flat-chestedness is now enshrined in the female ideal in the West, making once-impossible designs accessible to guys).

[0] An ALGOL-derived programming language for computers.

I do not see the Virgin policy as indicating one must be on the trans spectrum. The allowance of people to self identify doesn’t equate to must be trans. I see it as the current theme that people are being given the ability to state what they feel.

A trans female would wear the skirt because they identify as female. A trans male would wear the suit for the same reason. I think this policy has nothing to do with trans. Has everything to do with the non-binary folks.

I'm not surprised by the focus on the trans-angle. They fought for this policy, we didn't. Give credit where credit due.

ScotL wrote: ↑Sat Oct 01, 2022 8:00 pm Yep, TSH, I find your comments to be bitterly pessimistic.

You should seen the YT comments I made over the years. They're way more vindictive, nasty, and vulgar — moreso than I wanted them to be, looking back. I'm getting slightly better at keeping my angry at bay and just not reading the drivel I read on the internet.

If you ran into someone “bitterly pessimistic” would you want what they were selling? I wouldn’t. Why do salespeople act so positive? Ever hear the used car salesman technique of selling?

Yes, and it's best to take those people with an entire canister of salt.

I can’t and won’t tell a person how to be but I’ll make suggestions. I think bitterly pessimistic is gonna make those you interact with (regardless of being skirted) react the same way.

I try to avoid contact with people because I don't want to pretend to be someone who enjoys interacting with others in public. That's not being bitter or pessimistic, I simply just don't want to deal with people at any given time, and only engage in conversation when it's necessary.

Whether or not random acts of kindness changed anyones heart or mind? Don’t know. But I know I have a better chance of doing that with a random act of kindness than bitter pessimism.

Kindness can be exploited. People are often ingrates who don't appreciate the good that happen right in front of their faces. It's better to be "positive" only because it typically diffuses and prevents drama from happening, but can leave you vulnerable.

TSH wrote: ↑Mon Oct 03, 2022 8:00 am

ScotL wrote: ↑Sat Oct 01, 2022 8:00 pm Yep, TSH, I find your comments to be bitterly pessimistic.

You should seen the YT comments I made over the years. They're way more vindictive, nasty, and vulgar — moreso than I wanted them to be, looking back. I'm getting slightly better at keeping my angry at bay and just not reading the drivel I read on the internet.

If you ran into someone “bitterly pessimistic” would you want what they were selling? I wouldn’t. Why do salespeople act so positive? Ever hear the used car salesman technique of selling?

Yes, and it's best to take those people with an entire canister of salt.

I can’t and won’t tell a person how to be but I’ll make suggestions. I think bitterly pessimistic is gonna make those you interact with (regardless of being skirted) react the same way.

I try to avoid contact with people because I don't want to pretend to be someone who enjoys interacting with others in public. That's not being bitter or pessimistic, I simply just don't want to deal with people at any given time, and only engage in conversation when it's necessary.

Whether or not random acts of kindness changed anyones heart or mind? Don’t know. But I know I have a better chance of doing that with a random act of kindness than bitter pessimism.

Kindness can be exploited. People are often ingrates who don't appreciate the good that happen right in front of their faces. It's better to be "positive" only because it typically diffuses and prevents drama from happening, but can leave you vulnerable.

You reap what you sow. People who are standoffish and hate interacting with others will see that other people treat them the same way. Breeds discontent.

Outside of criminality, in all disputes, both sides need to improve. Perhaps you also need to see the good that happens right in front of you. I hope you continue to grow and keep your anger at bay.

rode_kater wrote: ↑Mon Oct 03, 2022 7:53 amI'm not surprised by the focus on the trans-angle. They fought for this policy, we didn't. Give credit where credit due.

OK, it's theirs. They win. Straight guys are an extinct species, and the ones that aren't already gone should be. My skirts go in the bin.

Back to being serious... Am I the sole remaining member of my class (straight hetero-normative male) who happens to prefer skirts as a style choice not a signifier of something else? If I am, I'll concede the fight and dutifully go back to male drab like a good little droid.

It won't be the first rear-guard battle I've lost.

moonshadow wrote: ↑Sun Oct 02, 2022 5:24 pm So if I may, I'd be interested in exploring what a more "masculine" adoptable skirted garment might be for the airline industry to try with men.

Ran across this today, would it do?

https://www.wildfang.com/products/the-e ... work-skirt

(Of course, color selection would be difficult, could be a bit longer)

crfriend wrote: ↑Mon Oct 03, 2022 11:43 am Am I the sole remaining member of my class (straight hetero-normative male) who happens to prefer skirts as a style choice not a signifier of something else?

Judging from the online presence of men in skirts as a style/fashion feature, I doubt it. But...

(a) ...if I understand you correctly, I think your "class" is under some social pressure, because although being straight is accepted, there is increasing negative reaction to being "heteronormative", though it is a popular position among the unthinking masses, because it effortlessly re-asserts the privilege of the majority. And those who are heteronormative are, I would have thought, under pressure to demonstrate their normative status, by being "normal" in all conventionally recognized respects: conform your sexuality to the traditional opposite-sex binary, your gender expression to your biological sex, and your clothing to your identified gender. To wear a skirt as a man in most Western countries is not "normal", and whether you like it or not, it is not going to be seen as making a purely stylistic choice. To wear a skirt is to step outside the bounds of conventional male costume, so it signifies eccentricity at the very least, unless it has some other clear motivation, such as ethnic identification.

(b) ...the reason why men in skirts (whatever their motives) are becoming less shocking in general is the spread of acceptance around non-conventional gender expression. Your style choice is seen as more acceptable because of the gender-expression choice of others, even if you do not share their motivation. Eventually, men in skirts may be so commonplace that it will be possible to step away from the "skirt = gay or trans" association, just as we have moved away from the "trousers = lesbian or radical feminist" assumption for women. But I think it will take a while.