Insecurity about our masculinity

[jamie001]

I don't worry about such insignificant things as "masculinity". Masculinity is an image that was created as a result of too many John Wayne movies. I just be myself which consists of masculine and feminine characteristics. I consider myself a feminized-male. On tests my brain will always score 80 to 90 percent female. I don't understand why folks worry so much about masculinity. The best answer is just to "be yourself" and don't worry about ridiculous societal stereotypes.

Jamie

Fashion Freedom For Men!!

[BrotherTailor]

Jamie,

Masculinity is not "insignificant". It is what is observable in the way we express those parts of ourselves that lie deepest and most precious to most of us. Somewhere deep inside me is a voice that tells me "I am a man".

it is nice that you are of an age and living in a societal and cultural milieu that is open and accepting of anything and everything. For myself, living where I do, being the age I am, and having the role in society that I have, I must weigh every decision extremely carefully, and measure risks out before I take a risk, if the cards go the wrong way, it could have lasting and serious repercussions.

If you read my brief entry in the personal stories forum you will perhaps get a sense of where I fall along the gender scale. I too tend to exhibit a fair bit of femininity, but in other ways, like being patient, kind, content with handwork (sewing), volunteering as a caregiver, etc. I think I would make a good "homemaker" if it wasn't for the fact I work and am single.

[sapphire]

Brother Tailor,
From your posts, you are most definitely masculine and your "softer side" makes you even more so in this age.

Your awareness of fashion, fashion history, design and construction of garments puts you in the position of being a leader in men's fashion freedom.

I appreciate the challenges that you have living in a remote area and applaud you for your honesty and courage.

[AMM]

I don't worry about such insignificant things as "masculinity". Masculinity is an image that was created as a result of too many John Wayne movies. I just be myself which consists of masculine and feminine characteristics. I consider myself a feminized-male. On tests my brain will always score 80 to 90 percent female. I don't understand why folks worry so much about masculinity. The best answer is just to "be yourself" and don't worry about ridiculous societal stereotypes.

I believe I can respect your feeling that you don't care about "masculinity", and that (if I understand you correctly) being a man is not an essential part of how you view yourself.

But not all of us are that way.

When I ask my self (as if it were the oracle at Delphi), am I, deep inside, a man or a woman (or other), the answer comes back: I am a man. Not a woman or androgyn or something else trapped inside a man's body. I don't know exactly what that means, I don't buy into all the things that "everybody" says men are, but that I am a man (whatever that means), through and through, is as clear and certain to me as the rising sun. In my heart, when I program a computer, or change a diaper, or replaster a room, or cook or sew, or wear a skirt or a dress (or, I suppose, even a bra), I am a man doing these things. I don't feel feminine doing them, and I don't really feel that much of anything I might imagine doing would feminize me. When someone talks about my "feminine" side, I have a hard time making sense of it. My "sides" aren't gendered. "Softer side", maybe, but not "feminine."

But sometimes when I look at myself, if I do something that is a bit beyond my skirt-wearing comfort zone, like try on a dress or sheer tights, or something, I get this shock of unrecognition, like: who is this? It doesn't look like a man, so it isn't really me.

And when I find myself wanting things that I've been raised to think that only girls/women like, I can tell myself as often as I want that it's just social convention, there's still a little voice that pipes up every now and then that this is all proof that despite everything I've always believed, deep inside, I really am a woman. For me, the idea that I'm not a man is sort of like the idea that, oh, I don't know, that the sun really rises in the West, or 1 + 1 = 3, and I've just deluded myself all these years. I mean, I suppose I could get used to it after a while if I didn't have too many other shocks going on, but it would be really unsettling.

And then there's a second aspect. Even if I get used to seeing myself looking in some way "unmasculine" by traditional standards, there's the question of how I feel about other people seeing me this way. I'm the kind of person who always shows other people an "edited" version of myself. The close I am to someone, the less edited it is (and I can only really get closer to someone if I can trust that they will accept the parts I will stop editing out), but it's always edited.

So it's not just "how 'unmasculine' do I feel comfortable looking/being", but "how 'unmasculine' do I feel comfortable looking to others?" And even "how 'unmasculine' do I feel comfortable presenting myself to person A or social group B?"


Anyway, as I said, I think (I hope I'm not deluding myself) that I can respect people for whom masculinity is no big deal, and can wear most anything without it bothering them -- but I'm not one of them, and the suggestion to "just not worry" about masculinity kind of begs the question. If I were able to "just not worry," I wouldn't have needed to post.

I also wonder if I'm the only person here who is bothered by these questions. Maybe I'm asking in the wrong place....


-- AMM

[jamie001]

I believe that masculinity is an unfortunate concept that has been forced upon men for many years. There is a stereotypical almost "John Wayne" type expectation that men are supposed to live-up-to. It is really sad and is essentially brainwashing!

Girls and women don't have expectations of meeting a predefined level of artificial femininity shoved down their throats as is the case with boy and men. If you don't believe me then let me give you a case-and-point example that is impossible to refute:

If a little girl is roughhousing or playing with boy's toys such as trucks, the typical response from parents and family is "look at the cure little Tom Boy, isn't she so cute!". On the other hand if a little boy is playing with a doll, the doll is immediately removed from him and a parent (usually the father) scolds him and tells him that boys don't play with dolls. You are not going to grow-up to be a sissy!! This type of brainwashing devalues femininity and women in general and is still running rampant well into the 21 century.

Therefore at a very early age, boys are taught that anything feminine is wrong that that they must be the antithesis of feminine in order to be a member of the boy's/men's club!!

BOYS HAVE BEEN FED A LOAD OF CRAP!! No wonder many boys and men are violent and have a problem expression their feelings. They have been brainwashed to fit the "macho image" regardless of their true feelings. On the other hand, women are socialized to pursue their true desires whether they are masculine or feminine by cultural standards. For example the response in the case of a female airline 747 pilot is admiration, whereas a male hairdresser or cosmetologist has to deal with poof jokes behind his back. Isn't it an interesting double-standard?

In my opinion, most males have weak and fragile egos even though they don't realize this fact. Please don't take offense to this statement because it doesn't apply to most freestylers on t his forum. Most men are like pack animals that are playing the "macho role" that has been driven and brainwashed into their heads since they were toddlers.

Ok, so let's get back to the original subject. In my opinion, a "Real Man" is a man that can think for himself. He has feelings and has the wear withal and strength to go against the macho herd mentality in both expression of feelings and what he chooses to wear. He also has the ability to accept that all human beings including men have both a masculine and feminine side. Gender is a continuum that is not to be confused with sexuality. Sexuality is either Hetero, Homo, or Bi, whereas gender is a sliding scale.

All of us have met women that are more masculine or feminine than other women... Sure we have. Many women with masculine traits that are fighter pilots or CEOs that can tear a man apart in a board-room are heterosexual. There is no link between the gender continuum and sexuality. This is the misconception that ignorant misinformed folks in today's society have.

Men need to "take back" the fashion freedom and freedom of behavior and expression that is rightfully their's. Only when a man is running his "own program" rather than society's "macho man program" can he be a "REAL MAN". The macho man program is a poor excuse for a man.

Jamie
Fashion Freedom for Men!!

[BrotherTailor]

Jamie001,

I think you are setting up straw men - projecting your own childhood experiences onto the rest of the world. My parents did not legislate what toys my sister and I played with. I carried a teddy bear 24/7 until I was 11 (and still have him). My sister and I played "tea party" together like two girls would.

I sense an inner anger and frustration that is driving you to say the things that you do in labelling people and things. Perhaps this forum will enable you to get it all out and move past them.

As far as the relationship between "sex", "sexuality", and "gender", please make clear distinctions. I do not understand exactly what your premise is in this regard.

I personally regard "sex" as biology - we have a certain number of X and Y chromosomes that determine our physical development, and apart from outside intervention these are fixed and unchangeable.(I think most experts in this field will commonly grant at least 4 possible x-y combinations). "Sexuality" is much more fluid, and is how we interpret the fact of our sex - how we psychologically adjust to the reality we must live with - hence we have some people that seem to be more naturally "sexy" in the way they develop and emphasise this part of themselves while others we might call "sexless" Surely you have seen this in your own experiences of other people? "Gender" is to me the way we take the fact of our sex, and the way we view our sexuality, and relate it to the world around us in the roles we play, the way we present ourself in our interaction with others - are we dominant? passive? aggressive? peaceable? is our personality hard or soft? Do we tend more naturally to one form of expression to another? We refer to "gender roles", and this is a very good way of thinking of them - for they are just that - roles we play in society, subject to change and alteration, and which bear only partial obligation to either our sex or our sexuality (hence, we have the philanthropic homosexual and the warlord heterosexual and vice versa...). Certainly the culture that surrounds us plays a major impact in shaping our sexuality and gender roles, we generally tend to try to fit into the herd.

Men naturally come wired with a leaning toward a dominant form of gender expression - it takes conscious effort and decision to move beyond this range and exercise a more submissive, humble, and caring/kind/gentle/thoughtful form of gender expression. We have to "work at it".

We are all "Real Men" (your words) it is simply a matter of choice as to how we define that and act out that definition. I;ve come to understand that anger and ultimatums are very "mannish" or male traits or ways of expressing how they feel, and have tried to avoid such forms of expression when possible... The "macho" man is just as valid as the "girly" man if a man is, as you say, "running his own program"....for you to call it a "poor excuse" is simply reversing the unfair rules that apply at present in society, and provides no real answer to continued injustice and the suppression of alternative ways for men to express their inner self without fear of recrimination. Some men are truly macho men. some are not. Why not allow all to express themselves freely without labelling either one as "poor excuses"?

[Peter v]

You can’t loose what you don’t have. Wearing a skirt changes nothing. What it does change is the way you look. So what? putting a jacket on changes the way you look. Of course there are men out there that want to do what the rabbits do with everything that wears a dress or skirt. Watch out for them.

Don’t forget there is more to you than the material that makes up the skirt. You are there, the way you look, walk, your whole attitude, the way YOU are shows. And that is no difference with a skirt or trousers. Who are you then when you wear only skimpy swimming briefs? Are you masculine then? Or does everybody see your flabby stomach and hairy chest? You are still you.

Think about it as a car. A car may look good but is nothing if it doesn’t run. When people see your exterior and the person “inside” together, then you are complete and only then can others find in THEIR opinion that you are masculine or not. Maybe you were never very masculine, well what you never had you can never loose. If in that case you were beforehand successful in deceiving others into thinking that you were masculine, and liked the deception, to them AND yourself, keep on doing that and don’t change your act.

By wearing a skirt you are showing others that you think for yourself, do what you want and are more man by doing that than the others that may think about it but have not jet jumped over the barriers. More importantly, you are your self, that’s what wearing skirts is about, which is much more important than being the image which others wish you to be.

As many before me have already said, and I say it too, you are your self, BE you, yourself. If anything is wrong in our world, it is the idea of not being who you are, to please others who in turn try to please you, all being not who they are and all unhappy.

If anything, being yourself is true "masculinity". For men and woman. It has nothing to do with what hangs between.

The whole idea of men and women is also wrong, we are all PEOPLE, and are ALL different. We can NEVER be like anything but ourselves. With that said, when you meet others that look like you, both in mind and clothes, then you can say we look like each other, but not we are less men or more womanly. I say less or more than WHAT?

It's all in the mind and with that nobody can ever fully explain it.

If you are affraid that wearing a skirt will end your contacts with your mates, then your mates were mates to your jeans or whatever, and not to YOU.

That's the power of this forum, many clear thinking people who let you know in many different discussions that being true, honest, respectful being yourself is the essential message, and that you are not alone with you questions, your doubts and that none of us is a perfect human being.
Being yourself is being perfect.

So wear skirts the way you like it.

Peter v

[AMM]

Jamie001 --

Please don't waste our time with "responses" that don't actually respond to what we have written. If you want to sound off on your ideas about masculinity, please put them in a separate thread. Don't pretend you are responding to us when you obviously don't know and don't care who we are and why we do what we do.

-- AMM

P.S.: As far as I am concerned, this thread is dead.

[crfriend]

P.S.: As far as I am concerned, this thread is dead.

I'm not quite certain that it's dead yet. It may be on its last legs, but to call it deceased may be a wee bit premature.

Sure, we've had some sophomoric comments on the matter, but there is a question lurking there that is begging to be answered -- and the only way to answer it is to shine the bright light of day on it, dissect it, find out what it is, and then formulate a theory that may answer it.

I suspect that the "image in the mirror" that we may occasionally take of ourselves may be a bit jarring, even whilst we know in our minds that we're doing nothing "wrong". Does the image in the mirror change who we are (I'd posit, "no."); does it change our perception of what we might be? The latter question is more confounding because it demands more critical thought and, to make matters worse, it requires critical insights into who we are in a very personal manner, and that can be outright frightening sometimes.

I quoted AMM's comment about "real men" in another thread (to paraphrase, "a real man is one that just 'gets down and does a job'" that needs doing) for a reason; that's a tangible facet of who we strive to be as men. It works.

Ultimately, what we clad ourselves in has precious little bearing (if any) on who we are inside; if it does, then I think that other factors are in play. By the time that the average bloke gets to the point where he's got the cubes to don a skirt in public (and, in large manner, thumb his nose at "conventional" society) he's got more masculinity than most; he's got confidence, he's got conviction, and he's got, for lack of a better word, "intestinal fortitude". He's got the wherewital to make his way in the world, in his way, on his terms. He has the courage to stand alone and proclaim his personal victory. Can one get much more "masculine" than that?

[Peter v]

To crfriend
Member Extraordinaire

That's saying it well.

I like that bit on the mirror. There is a difference in who we are in our own MINDS, and the person we see looking right at us in the mirror. Have we men learnt how to LOOK at our selves? There is very much more to this wearing skirts than only putting on a piece of cloth. That is like opening Pandora's box, you don't know what comes next. The good thing is we have lifted the cover, without having done that we men would still be "locked" in the "box" which men have to conform to as men.

We are standing up for our right of individuality, to being not just a man, as men are still percieved, but a human being, breaking away barriers which kept us locked up. Now we are "free" we have to find out how to go further. After reading various input on this forum I believe we are on the right track.

Peter v

[SkirtDude]

deleted

[Peter v]

"it takes a real man to wear a skirt" Thats something I would say.
It's a great caption.

We must all have fears of meeting up with people no matter who they are, who are just looking for a victim, and wearing a skirt is for them as good a resason as any to do what they want to. But really anybody can get KILLED for NOTHING So although that thought must be with us all, there is a life to be lived, so let's live it. Don't put you hand in a lion's mouth unless it's dead.

Peter v.

[SkirtedViking]

that jamie some of your observations are correct. From children boys are put into a frame while girls pretty much do whatever they feel.This is transferred to people from all ages- a woman is not expected to be feminine while a man has to be whatever the so called male concept for each country is. Well I have to say that insecurity in our masculinity prevents some men to express themselves, but probably some just like themselves the way they are. What I mean is that also males should be able to express themselves without the double standard frame and there is nothing wrong if anyone likes to stay in the present expectations.

[Ray]

Carl,

What a fabulous post. For me, you've hit the nail on the head. I read it, almost saying, yes, YES, YES as I went along.

[Skirt Chaser]

First I want to thank you for such open posts, AMM. You speak of sharing an edited version of yourself sometimes. Truly, I consider it an honor that we are lucky enough to be trusted with some of your innermost, revealing thoughts.

But sometimes when I look at myself, if I do something that is a bit beyond my skirt-wearing comfort zone, like try on a dress or sheer tights, or something, I get this shock of unrecognition, like: who is this? It doesn't look like a man, so it isn't really me.

It may not be an unsurmountable problem that you don't see yourself at first. I know shopping for new glasses always is a chore for me because the only 'me' I recognize in glasses is whatever my current pair is. Still, your problem includes not just what looks right on you but also what is suitable for a man according to your tastes. One thing that might be instructive is what you think when seeing the same style on another man. Do they strike you as not looking like a man or is it limited only to what you are in that gives you that feeling?

And when I find myself wanting things that I've been raised to think that only girls/women like, I can tell myself as often as I want that it's just social convention, there's still a little voice that pipes up every now and then that this is all proof that despite everything I've always believed, deep inside, I really am a woman.

Sometimes that voice is a great one telling you that the way somebody is behaving around you makes you uncomfortable or reminding you a sloppy sandwich does need a tray underneath if you insist on eating in the living room. Other times that voice is not looking out for you at all. You know, that voice that tells some people they are ugly, others they can't do anything right, or in my case the less harmful but still dumb advice to eat pizza while it is too hot because the cheese is more fun when it strings out. Please don't doubt yourself or burn your tongue by listening to the wrong voices.

With a gentle hug to a friend whose posts always make me think, laugh, or agree with completely,

Quiet Mouse