Why should we bother?

[Kris]

"A job is generally confining, and if I am to be confined the best part of each day, possibly with other people, I would wish to dress as I wish to do, that being my life."

That seems to be a rather negative view of working. Think of the positives (aside from the obvious one of making money):
You may actually like the job!
You may find satisfaction in the work!
You may have social interaction with a variety of people, both coworkers and the public!
You may make some friends!

Be a survivor, not a victim. Have a positive mental attitude, and things may work out much better than you anticipate.

Kris

[Peter v]

I've learned how to conform while not conforming at work. I have beautiful long hair, which I put up in different ways on different days. Sometimes I wear a bit of lipstick to work. And I tend to wear polo shirts (short sleeve), not the standard long sleeves. All this I can "get away" with, and I don't have to wear skirts to work.

Also... the better we know who we are (and are comfortable and happy with that), the less important it becomes to express that in the way we dress in any particular setting.

Hello Bob, very nice reply. By the way, lipstik, why not? In moderation at least. Good for you!!!
The discussion is an open one, regarding all who feel they have the same soort of situations. But started with my personal situation. And is not in particular about how any one person gets along with that, but more about the concensus with many that there is little value in who we are, the way we dress and express ourselves, that WE should conform, and not "It is correct to realise who you are, andtry to find a place where you can be yourself and do as you do." Whether such a place exists is another discusion. I am also not saying in any way that how I see things at the moment is right or should be folowed by others.

I agree, but although I have been thinking about wearing tunics with trousers, it still is wearing skirts which at least at the moment is very important to me, the whole basis of the new me, along with the more femme total look. I don't deny myself any manly skirted outfit, but am not interested in that, only if the "need" ( My choice ) arises, like on vacation, trekking through bush, working on something etc. And I see the reactions comming in, "then for a job that counts too" But that is still an ongoing issue. The crux of the discussion is that other people seem to want to decide for you that what you are, what you feel is not important, that it is what others want that determines how you dress and express yourself. If we agree and conform, but the choice is always ours, as to when you can and cannot wear skirts, ie be your self. To a certain extent they are right, reflecting on the actual situations in society.

The situation is presented as if skirt wearing and the whole package isn't an important issue, well why not look in the mirror, and say to themselves, it is not so important for THEM if some man (they employ) who is employed wears skirts and is a bit Femme, expresses himself different to the others. But they don't. You have to conform. It has taken me 52 years before I had come this far, and I am looking from out of a jobless situation, seeing how to go from there. When you have a job, that is a different starting point. If you have something, you make do, if you don't you tend to look more critically at it, scrutinise it more.

I don't have the time to see and manipulate, in a new job, what may and may not be possible, try to get sympathy for my way of being me whatever that encompasses. I've had that with other issues and am bitter about the outcome. "other people "need time" to get used to you," your employers need time to think about "letting" you be more freely dressed, well what about YOU? What time do you have?

Although at first and many times later, I have tried to conform to the ways of others, to their smoking addiction, but eventually had to give up and accept the choice others had made for me, and as a result lead a life of social isolement, because of my unnacceptance of it and being forced to make a choice be a victim of the smoke of be a victim of forced isolation. I chose outside of my job relative smoke free life, isolation thus. And regret the "forced acceptance" of smoke at work, a living hell for me, but then that was also the statement, "conform". I conformed, but at a great personal cost to me. I have been waiting all my life to be able work, to recreate, socialise, to go out to a theater, to a restaurant without having to wear a respirator because of the smoke, and only now, this month, all restaurants are (should be) smoke free. (in the Netherlands) That has taken practically the best part, the best years of my life. Destroying any chances in my case of social interaction. Please no discussion about smokers / non smokers.

I've gone through all that, and am not going to throw in the towel with my skirt wearing either. But how to go further? I don't want to wear trousers, but COULD do so if I wanted, in my own time. NOT because others force it on me. In the long run I may HAVE to conform, "it is only a skirt... yeh,.... right.. " because of financial pressure, but although I hope it was well meant, but all too easily said, I still deplore the statement that I should conform as was suggested to me. That states without saying it in words, that OTHERS DON't conform, then why ask it of you? Where does the conformality stop? Where doe we put our foot down and say no further. ( with the usual consequences )

There is at present no suggestion of understanding for my predicament, for my way of expressing myself. That hurts.
I don't have the financial luxury to be self sufficient, not having to conform to rules to get my unemployment payment every month.

With regards to Cris reaction, it is valued, thank you, that is one of the reactions which has come from all of this which I am very glad to see. I do agree fully. If you like the work, IF this and If that, I agree, but you can't just easily jump from one job to the other if something isn't "if". And If you want to wear skirts, and go in without, it is very much the question IF it will ever be possible. As I had stated earlier, I don't have any social life, and don't expect any either, ( not knowing what the future will bring) that in mind, the greatest part of your life being your job, I do wish to be able to be my self, dress as I wish to if at all possible. Whether I do or not do is not relative, but I don't accept other people telling me I should conform. Even though they may be right with regards to my options.

[Bob]

Peter,

Please understand that people here are making suggestions, giving advice. Most people most of the time give advice based on their own experience, and this is no different. Advice will not always be right for you, and you do not have to follow it in any case, even if it is right. So please, do not take offense, and remember that people on this thread are giving their heartfelt advise to an obviously difficult situation. Ultimately, only YOU can find your way through it.

You've mentioned a new self a few times, but have not said much about this person. How is the new Peter similar to and different from the old Peter?

[Since1982]

Wow.....who am I talking about? The Boss, of course. The one who sooner or later or not at all says 2 words, "You're Fired". To which the employee usually gets very helpful and heaps praise and attentiveness on the boss, usually too late tho. The one who has his/her life savings and every other thing important to him/her wrapped up in how his/her employees affect his/her customers. Unless the "boss" is running an Art gallery or a Rock and Roll band he/she usually likes conformity at the workplace.

[Departed Member]

The best way to fight the kind of 'battle' you seem to want to indulge in, is to do it from the 'inside', Peter.

You don't want to discuss "Smoking", yet there is your greatest example of what can be achieved, both in the workplace and outside. I've fought all my working life against the injustice of the smoker. It's taken, as you have observed, a darned long time for many, many folks to get the wishes of the majority listened to, and more importantly, acted upon. Our 'human right' not to have our lungs filled with smoke, our nostrils not swollen with ash and our clothes not stinking! Yet you want to impose your will upon any would-be employer - before you've even got a job? Rightly or wrongly, crossdressing is stigmatised. It doesn't seem to matter that no-one else will 'catch' anything untoward from you, it's only 'your' fashion choice. I used the word, "crossdressing" deliberately, because that is what 99.99% of employers in the Netherlands will 'see' (in their eyes), if you turn up for an interview as 'en femme' as you appear in your photos, and I'm making that observation, knowing how much more 'laid back' the Dutch are compared to the UK.

Goodness, women in the Netherlands are only just starting to turn against 'tr*user tyranny' themselves! I remember being shocked the first time I visited your country nearly thirty years ago to see the particularly hideous (tapering towards the heel) tr*users most seemed to wear - even in their own time! Don't you see, Peter, you'll be viewed as a "potential troublemaker", no matter how well you try and sell 'the real you'? And the employer is free to choose who will 'fit in' quickly, especially in smaller firms. No matter how much expertise you could bring, a 'safer' second choice is the only realistic option. I've just had to turn down a (very!) lucrative job offer, because of ongoing illness. The job has been left 'on the table'. But, it will require sombre 'suit & tie', sorry to say. I could 'get away' with a Kilt in, or near, Scotland - probably - but not in the East Midlands! So there's a choice - "skirt and starve", or compromise for 30-40 hours a week, and be able to afford more skirts than even you could dream of!

[Peter v]

Peter,

Please understand that people here are making suggestions, giving advice. Most people most of the time give advice based on their own experience, and this is no different. Advice will not always be right for you, and you do not have to follow it in any case, even if it is right. So please, do not take offense, and remember that people on this thread are giving their heartfelt advise to an obviously difficult situation. Ultimately, only YOU can find your way through it.

You've mentioned a new self a few times, but have not said much about this person. How is the new Peter similar to and different from the old Peter?

Thank you Bob, I am definitely NOT offended in any way. No offence taken. And I appreciate all advice.
Taking logical steps is just what others say about men wearing skirts, "why bother" just wear what we wear, men's clothing, pants. Don't be different, go with the flow. Luckily not everybody follows the "logical" path, as we can see with so many men wearing skirts. But it does get much more difficult when we are talking about having an income or practically dying because of a lack of income. Whether it is difficult for me or not, if I chose to wear pants to a job or a skirt, that is my choice, good or bad for me, but nobody can TELL me what to do, and I find suggesting to me to "conform" wel that doesn't feel right and I protest that.

With regards to Bosses, they, some may want conformity, but they are just people as we are, with one exception, they can give you money in return for services rendered. They are beyond that not GOD, not dictators, just people who have nothing to say about you. Do bosses want to hire other people or clones? There are certain conditions sometimes required, for safety reasons, and in some cases for Identifying employees, but for the rest, we should be free to dress and be as we please. Of course, If I could say I want to do a particular sort of work, then I would do all that was needed to perform well in that job, but also there, not dress any way that any other person dictates, but the way needed to do the job in a correct and safe way. Then we have "pride" which is an important part of anybody. The fact that I need an income of my own to have any future prospects is the only thing that would eventually drive me to "conform" to some extent, but not for any other person's "personal" reasons. It may seem stupid, but I would rather die fighting ( for freedom ) than live in captivity for the rest of my life. If animals could think as we do, I bet all animals in captivity would do the same. There are certain circumstances which are acceptable to each of us and others which are not. If I would have to go back to wearing normal men's clothes at work, that would have an enormous impact on me, being detrimental to me. A situation which I am not happy to be in, but it is so. I can't deny who I am now, the way I dress. I should have worn skirts when I was 18, but it wasn't so apparent to me then. As I have stated, I have been, and still am, denied social contact because of the influence of tobacco smoke on me, ( please no discussion ) and have been very stand fast in my decisions there, regardless of the consequences, and I am not going to give up on this isue easily either.

I am still basically the same Peter as the old one, with this exception, that I have "come out", with regards to wearing skirts and femme clothing. I express myself more freely, in the way I dress publically now, and in retrospect is something that I had no idea of that it would come out as it now has. I am more free now that I am wearing skirts, something that thinking back, I have wanted to do since I was eight or so, but didn't grasp it fully until the moment I was divorced a few years back, and was living on my own. I feel more my self in the clothes I wear now than before. I could wear the same clothes as before, men's clothes, but it is totally uninteresting for me now. I not only dress differently, but feel somehow different, not much, NOT feeling that I am a woman or anything, but different, somehow happier. That is not without it's problems of course. Unfortunately when i started this skirt wearing thing, I was without a job. If I had had a job, I may not have come this far, or I may have tried to fase it in in my job if the work allowed it. Tha not being the case, i am faced with being an openly more femme man than I visually was before hand and wanting to continue that in a job if possible.

You can wear what others do, go where others go, do what others do, that is the easy way, but not always YOUR way. And we know that when somebody goes another way than the rest, that it is not always accepted by the others......... Which is no reason not to go your own way. There is I think a different pressure on having any job here as opposed to other countries, especiall the US, as I said earlier, I am about to apply for a Assistance benefit ( for people without a job ) which is just enough to live from. That is not fun, there is no future in that, but it can come down to that. And when you recieve the payment, it is compulsary to work four hours every day somewhere that they decide for you. So no fun and games. If you don't get something like that, then you have to work somewhere or starve.

[Peter v]

Merlin, have just read your input, and I do agree, in principle, as what I am now facing is an ongoing thing, which I am not outspoken on.
I am a trouble maker if it means anybody who doesn't accept all things, when you know that some things are wrong or are negative for you. Who sees anti social behavior and talks about it. Any body who has passed 50 is a person that cannot be formed by the boss and is therefore less wanted than younger people anyway. Being able to actually do something about some things is another story. Working from the inside is a possibility, if it is possible. How many years of trying do you need? I don't have a lifetime in which to get accepted. That is one of the problems, if I was 18 then I could say, try this and if it doesn't work out I am youg enough to try else where. Not when you are 53. I am who I am now, I have changed, difficult to put a finger on, but I have. I am not prepaired to go through years of struggle, manipulation to finally get some recognition the day before I leave for my pension, if I reach that.

Because of what I have been through, felt, what smoking and other anti social things I saw and underwent were not acceptable, but which you just had to "accept" or leave, and of course you couldn't just leave, then being without a job.... have done to me personally in the years past has formed me to who I am now. And even though it has left deep scars inside, I will not give in and be part of any anti social behavior as I see it, even if it means social isolement which it has for most of my life, unfortunately. I FEEL that I would rather die than conform. Feel. Because where does it leave me, if for the years to come, the best part of every working day I would have to say my skirt wearing farewell, who, what am I? It is all feeling, which says that I may eventually chose to accept a job somewhere that I have to wear men's attire, not being a free choice, but even though it would be a capitulation, it would be my choice in the given circumstances. Never say never.

[Departed Member]

Because where does it leave me, if for the years to come, the best part of every working day I would have to say my skirt wearing farewell, who, what am I? It is all feeling, which says that I may eventually chose to accept a job somewhere that I have to wear men's attire, not being a free choice, but even though it would be a capitulation, it would be my choice in the given circumstances. Never say never.

There is a rather radical approach you could possibly take. Please give it some thought. Why not apply for SRS? A potential employer couldn't then automatically 'rule you out' because of your apparel. Indeed, it would be to their advantage to be seen to be encouraging 'diversity'. Ah, but you don't want to become a woman? Of course not! But have you thought how long it would take for the (Netherlands equivalent of the) NHS to actually agree and pay for such 'treatment' (unless you have sufficient funds of your own, which apparently you don't?)? It would 'buy' you a minimum of two years, and if the British NHS is anything to go by, probably seven or eight, by which time you're knocking on retirement age! And don't forget, under SRS programmes, you can 'back out' at any time. So, you might find that getting a job becomes somewhat easier, folk would get used to YOU (forgetting the clothes!) and before long, you quietly 'forget' anything about SRS! You already have the 'advantage' that you're seeing a shrink......

[Bob]

Merlin, I see where you're going. But I generally dislike "playing around" with these kinds of systems. SRS is also preceded by a couple of years of hormones (at least), which after a few months cause permanent changes. If you refuse to take the hormones, the doctors would probably catch on pretty quickly that something's "different" here.

Also... transsexuals have a notoriously hard time getting jobs as well, unless they can "pass" and no one can guess their trans status.

I did run across this issue with some people, when I posed a hypothetical question to them. They were EXTREMELY uncomfortable with the idea of a guy wearing skirts and taking on a feminine role in a particular theatrical setting. But it was OK with them (or they claimed it was OK) if the person had gone through SRS. It got down to the point where they seemed to imply they would do a genital check. Ugh. Their attitude was "get out of here, until you've been chopped and you look 'normal' to us." Dudes, this is JUST THEATER --- and theater has a long history in various cultures of cross-gender roles as well.

Gender and identity are a LOT more than genitals. I believe the transsexual "revolution" spawned by modern medicine does us a disservice by focusing on physical conformity, rather than critically examining the multi-dimensional social constructs that go into gender. We need to call SRS for what it is --- genital mutilation. Maybe it helps some people, but it's NOT for everyone.

[Peter v]

Thanks Merlin, thanks Bob,
SRS ? please say it in full. I don't know what it means.
As to undergoing hormone treatment, why should I? IF I could get the treatment. And you can't just stop. It would be a men's fantasy, not reality. To retain his male organ, get perfect smooth hairless skin, a full head of hair, a nice pair of boobs. That is not something that will change your basic looks.

I may go so far that I get some recognition possibly being named "difficult to place".( place in a job) I don't think that would be in my benefit.
With such a recognition, I am not free of compulsary activitys to seek work, and am more difficult to place.
I understand that for many there may be no luxury in not wanting to give something up, and getting a unemployment bennefit, even if it is a very minimum. But we do have homeless people here too. As I said, at the moment I am going to a shrink, but actually a "social psychiatric nurse" the translation isn't quite right. Maybe I can get recognition from her for some sort of mental situation, reagrding the skirt wearing, but believe me, being diagnosed completely "normal" is always the best thing. Bosses only want normal people.

If you have a broken leg, you need / want to have a broken leg diagnosis, but DON't want to have a broken leg.

I do not want to become a woman, certainly not fysically, although a smooth hairless body, a nice full head of long hair would be nice. If fantasy was reality, then possibly I would like to have the body of a beautiful woman, but not the periods..
If you are going to chop around in your body, you MUST be a woman in side. That I certainly am not.

Manipulating the system if you know precisely how may bring certain benefits, but I would think also certain throwbacks. People should accept me as I am. I want to be me not some form of living tissue that others will accept. We all should strive to be accepted as we are. The fact that most skirt wearing men seem to conform at every suggestion only strengthens the miss interpretations of the population, but is understandable. Most people it seems think that they can force people to conform to their wishes, make clones out of everybody. That is easier for them, because otherwise they may have to think, and can they do that? Can they muster the energy needed? It seems that most skirt wearers conform, being afraid to lose that which they have, the most difficult being their job. What will happen if we stand up and protest? Who is stronger? Grain bends naturally in the wind, but breaks when it is stood on. Don't let yourself be stood on.

[Since1982]

if I chose to wear pants to a job or a skirt, that is my choice, good or bad for me, but nobody can TELL me what to do, and I find suggesting to me to "conform" wel that doesn't feel right and I protest that.

Absolutely RIGHT. Of course, no one HAS to hire you either. Just as you feel they have no right to tell you what to wear, you also have no right to tell them who they have to hire or what they can REQUIRE their employees to wear.
Definition: SRS = Sex Reassignment Surgery
They have the absolute right to REQUIRE you to conform to their dress standards IF you wish to work at their business and get PAID. Otherwise, create your own business and wear what you please.

[Departed Member]

Whereas I understand what you are saying, Bob, it does rather highlight a difference in approach/viewpoint between the USA and Europe. In Western Europe (I'm thinking UK, Netherlands and Germany in particular - I could also say, "non-catholic/muslim"), it seems that a goodly number of blokes will readily don a skirt to attend a 'fancy dress' party, various carnivals, sports events, and, of course, theatrical and pantomime activities without a second thought. I'm including Kilts to an extent, as they're increasingly being seen as 'costumes', whether to attend weddings or football matches. However, ask the same blokes to wear said skirt (or even Kilt!) to work, and the shutters go up! Indeed, the Scottish National Party has 'come out' recently as very anti-Kilt - except as a 'costume' for pipe bands, the military and the other occasions I've mentioned.

Once someone in the UK (& I suspect, other countries as noted above) opts for SRS, there is much more support (except, ironically, from the person's immediate family ) within the community. Employers get 'brownie points' for employing disabled, gender-reassigned folk, and the like. What concerns me a little with the SRS folk, is whether they take that road, just to wear the opposite gender's clothing. The (male) ones who take the NHS (non-private) track are 'encouraged' to adopt the 'maiden aunt' look, during treatment, to 'prove' they want to 'be a woman'. Of course, they stand out like 'sore thumbs' - any woman dressed as they do, would too! It's not normally until after surgery, that 'proper' support 'kicks in', for them. The ones who fare best are those who have jobs to start with. It would be far more difficult to 'get rid of' someone already employed for more than three months in Europe, I fancy, than the States. Which is why I'm thinking it would be in Peter's best interests to re-assess his priorities, and look at the longer term benefits, even if only to then 'hint' to his (new) employer that he was 'considering' SRS.

[Sasquatch]

Geez! Can you guys ever make mountains out of molehills!! Here are my suggested guidelines:
1) Wear what you need to wear when you need to wear something specific, e.g. a uniform or required dress for your job, school, etc.
2) Wear what's appropriate for an occasion or situation when your desires are secondary to the reason for the event, e.g weddings, funerals, ceremonies, presentations, business meetings, etc.
3) The rest of the time you can indulge your own desires, so wear whatever you like.

It's not that complicated!

sasq

[Departed Member]

Geez! Can you guys ever make mountains out of molehills!! ....It's not that complicated! sasq

Well, for Peter, quite obviously it is! The poor chap's going down a different 'road' from the rest of us, and a narrow one, at that. Whilst I believe he'd be better served on, say, The Atrium forum, that doesn't mean we should simply ignore his distress, does it?

[Peter v]

Thanks guys . "I know why I wear what I wear", it is other people, who are hired to advise, who may be employers who wimple it off as a sort of momentary madness. It does make a very interesting discussion, as I believe we all get to face such short sighted shallow remarks, or know that they may get such remarks if they come wearing a skirt, and thus don't.

I think it is a scandal that even in Scotland, with such a skirt wearing tradition, kilts, that a political party may be considering an "anti kilt programme". How dare they.

SRS = Sex Reassignment Surgery is only for those who "need " it. Not me. You have to BE a woman, to undergo cosmetic surgery to achieve a visual woman effect. I believe that such operations may be succesful, but that the persons who under go them are not always happy once it is done. I am really glad I am not in that situation.

Remains "why should we bother", certainly not if we follow the advice of most people giving it.
It isn't any bother, but not everybody with whom we interact / have to interact will accept it.

As for employers, I agree in part, and of course depending on the laws of the country / state in which that is. On a personal plain, they can ask anything from you, but employers are not totally free, think about anti discrimination laws.

I think I would rather know from the word go if I can wear skirts or not in a new job, rather than Thinking it May be possible, and not succeeding, being held back on all fronts maybe and being an underdog.

I happened to speak to my ex father in law today, and I had never thought it of him, but he just cannot accept me wearing a skirt or more femme clothes. (dressing as women do). Although we get along fine, he would not let me enter his house dressed that way. He didn't even try to explain what the difference was with pants or in a skirt. I would be welcome if I was wearing anything "normally manly", pants thus. I suppose if you would meet people who think that way as or at an employer, then you know the outcome before you start.