Why should we bother?

[Peter v]

As I was talking to my shrink the other day, and after telling that it is sometimes a whole chore to dress in the clothing that I wear, wanting to wear something different every day, having to shave more than only my chin, etc.

She said why not take the easy way and wear trousers more, ( I never wear them anymore) that with regards to a job. That is a slippery sliding slope that may be very difficult to climb up again.
Well I was somewhat angry with that suggestion. But it still is a very difficult thing, to hold on to wearing certain clothing, even at work, which means no work.. Or sacrifice your needs emotionally and go back to the slave suit you had worn all your life previously. She said: How do you go dressed to a job intervieuw? I answered, just like I am sitting infront of you now, in a skirt, and possibly somewhat femme. This joins up neatly with the question about AS disorder / spectrum "Aspie Roll Call" from BOB.

I would think that asking a die hard motorcyclist why not take the easy way and drive around in a car, nice and warm and dry etc, you would get the same answer, it is a way of life. Unfortunately that can be very detrimental to your financial situation.

How important is it to wear skirts / dresses during daily work hours? Very important. For the simple reason. that is most of your life that you spend at work. And although there is some time outside of work hours, they are very few. For me at the present time, it still is important enough to want to be able to do it during working hours. The consequences are known beforehand. I think that living anywhere else than in the Netherlands, there really is very little choice. I will get a form of Dole soon, which is very minimal but just enough to live from. I am prepaired to work, but not under ( Correction: all ) any circumstances.

The times of "Arbeit macht frei" are fortunately behind us, but I am sure that I am not the only one who has a hard time dealing with this sort of problem, with regards to skirt wearing.

[rick in skirt]

you know that most people were to work what they don't normally wear when they get home. Most people put on shorts or jeans when they arrive home and most of the time these are totally unacceptable in the work place. I know you don't want to here this, but maybe for a good job you will need to wear trousers. At least you are free to put on a skirt and what ever else when you get home. Unlike some of us which are pretty much locked into skirts and other freestyle only when away from home. I hope this comment is helpfull, we do have to pick our battles we can't fit everything all the time.

[Bri]

There are a few times my fiancee wears skirts, but very few. Possibly interviews, church, and that's about it really. She doesn't like the idea of wearing a skirt to a few of the places and wishes she had more options, but at the present time she really doesn't. It's kind of like the idea that if you're exceptionally wealthy and have highly educated somewhat powerful people scared of what you'll say or do next, then you can get away with more. As the average citizen who needs to depend on others for a job and pay, we kind of have to accept that there are certain things that aren't the best to do at present.

This is in no way saying don't wear skirts, but a the same time it is in a way. Yet the idea is wear them casually when not at work. I don't know what came first with women, wearing skirts at home or work, but for right now it's really something people have to get used to casually where they can choose to walk away if they feel bothered by it. At work you can't exactly just walk away and not associate with the person. Then again it depends on your employer and employees views on it. An interesting thing to try would be to have an interview for a job you don't really want and wear a skirt to that to see what the reaction would be or if you wouldn't be hired on that basis, which might be (and should be really) discrimination. Until you know the average employers reaction, and the waters have been tested and proven suitable for a person to go into further, might want to try conventionalism.

[Kris]

There is a phrase: "Sometimes you have to go along to get along". It sums up the fact that cultures (like our Western ones) and sub-cultures (like companies) have their own conventions about a lot of things, including dress, and to get along well in the culture you sometimes need to go along with the conventions of the culture. It doesn't mean you can't be YOU. It just means as Bri and Rick have said that you need to pick and chose the times and places to express the more unconventional facets of YOU.

Certainly if a company doesn't hire you, solely because you wear a skirt or dress to the interview, it is discrimination in the dictionary sense of the word. But it most probably doesn't meet the legal definition of discrimination.
(Caution about the following digression: IANAL. Not in the USA, not in the Netherlands, not even in Neverland.)
Some jurisdictions have very broad anti-discrimination statutes. In addition to all the usual categories (race, sex, age, disability, sexual orientation) some may include "gender expression" or some variation of that. To make a discrimination claim under that, you would have to claim to be transgendered.
If a qualified professional said you had a psychological condition that required you to dress in particular ways, you might qualify under "disability".
But in no case would anti-discrimination laws protect you if you simply have a preference for a particular mode of dress.

And who, really, can blame the people in charge of hiring for a company? You come to them basically as an unknown. You may have great experience and references, but they have to balance that against the possibility that your mode of dress will make you a divisive or disruptive influence in the workplace or with customers. (And I'm certainly not saying that you would be!) They just don't want to take the chance. Unless you are looking for work in some niche areas of the arts, entertainment, or fashion industries, your clothing choices are going to be viewed as a possible problem, best avoided.

You could, perhaps, go for an interview in rather conventional dress. At some point, inquire about the companies "dress code". If it seems somewhat relaxed, tactfully broach the subject of your clothing interests/preferences with the interviewer, and have some tasteful pictures with you to show if the interviewer seems open minded. Even that might backfire, but it's a thought.

Well, TAFN.

Kris

[crfriend]

From a very personal perspective, I don't really "get" what the problem is. I arise five days per week (sometimes before the sun is even up), chuck on a dress shirt, decent shoes, a pair of trousers, and sometimes one of my waistcoats and head off to work. I do so so I can pay the bills that inevitably come due for the things that give me pleasure in life. I don't mourn not wearing a skirted garment at work -- not because I couldn't "get away with it" (given a "no dress code" workplace in which almost anything goes, I could) -- but because I'm likely the last person at the place (OK, that's an exaggeration -- just) that actually dresses in anything close to a professional style; I'm the last one anybody's seen wearing a tie for ages, and I did that just to fiddle with their heads a bit.

For me, getting home and swapping trousers for a skirted rig (and it's just the "bottom" that changes) is another way of reinforcing the notion that I'm "off the clock", and I like that disparity. It's not that I'm uncomfortable or unhappy at work because of my attire (I have better things to worry about that make me unhappy at work), but rather a very convenient dividing line. I certainly don't feel "put upon" at work to wear trousers -- it's just what the professional male in Western Society does -- and I certainly don't feel handicapped in my off-hours when I'm pursuing other things that are of importance to me. So, I actually enjoy the best of both worlds.

If there's a "cause" to be espoused here (that of "fashion freedom" -- whatever that may be), I believe we would do well to first conquer the "off-hours" notion. First off, it's not anywhere nearly as hidebound as the Office Setting (although that's changing, whether or not for the better is left open to interpretation) where formal dress-codes may still be in effect, and secondly it's easier to actually get somebody's attention in an informal setting who might be genuinely interested in your garb rather than questioning why you're flaunting (or merely "pushing") the established guidelines. To me, this has never been about tossing trousers from my wardrobe completely -- it's about creative integration of skirts into my wardrobe. And it's never been any sort of "crusade"; it's more an expression of free thought and free will -- both of which qualities are supposed to be cherished in Western Societies.

I'm going to close out with this thought: If your "alternative" wardrobe is so important to you that you're suffering anxiety, discrimination, or angst about it you've likely got other factors that are out of kilter and it's those other factors that need a good hard introspective look, not your external fashion choices. Much as I rail about the DSM and the notion of "transvestic fetishism", it's important to note that the key trait for a "formal diagnosis" is that the behaviour (wearing "alternative fashion") needs to "cause distress" to the subject in question. I'll submit that if there's distress in the equation there are other factors in play than mere "fashion freedom".

[Since1982]

Why should we bother....well...I'm going to espouse the rights of someone who gets forgotten easily but is also easily the most important person outside the home in EVERYONE who works' life. I know he/she's not thought of as a person but as an entity, but having BEEN in his/her position I know we are never appreciated until we say 2 words. Then we are covered with praise and appreciation. Usually too late for the person we say the 2 words to.

WHO AM I SPEAKING OF?

[Pythos]

I find it ironic how there seems to be much support for men having only trousers as a choice for work, but women are able to wear skirts or trousers.

Peter, I don't think your skirt wearing is the only reason for your work problems. There are other reasons, this being shown by the fact you are going to a shrink. I think there are other issues, and this is being exasperated by your desire to wear skirts.

I personally consider people telling me I cannot wear a skirt a form of sexual discrimination. How so? By the fact I am being denied something because of my gender.

Honestly though, we may as well not bother, if the only times we can wear what we like is limited to our off work times. Work is a huge part of our lives, and we are spending more and more time there. I think everyone should have the freedom in what they can wear provided it fits into the decent category.

[crfriend]

I find it ironic how there seems to be much support for men having only trousers as a choice for work, but women are able to wear skirts or trousers.

Every time I read that particular argument, I can't help but sense an undercurrent of misogyny in it -- and that does not sit well with me. Women don't "have it better" than men; if anything they're still rather worse off with wage inequity and sometimes the demands to go for a wardrobe that's more expensive than the typical bloke's. They're also frequently demanded to be "attractive" -- something rarely heaped on men. I also happen to think the argument is whiney, and that doesn't sit well with me either.

Put bluntly, the only one keeping you from wearing skirted garments at work is you -- either that or fear. Don't whine that one set of people "has it better" than another set. If you want to fix it, set about fixing it.

Kris made a good observation that "sometimes one has to go along to get along". That's frequently good advice. Sometimes it's just easier not to rock the boat. Is wearing a skirt to work important enough to you to risk losing a job? Because, right or wrong, that's what can happen; on a "first offense", I suspect it'd be a "trip to the headmaster's office" (H.R.) and a blast of wind, but on subsequent ones more drastic "action" might be undertaken. Note also, that an employer would never admit to sacking anyone because of their tastes in clothes; they'll use other reasons which are vastly easier to trump up and which conceal the original intent ("insubordination" being the 100 mega-tonner of the raft of reasons).

I personally consider people telling me I cannot wear a skirt a form of sexual discrimination. How so? By the fact I am being denied something because of my gender.

On a meta-level you are correct in that feeling. But, reality and what actually transpires in everyday life sometimes have a way of not exactly meeting square-on. That is why I suspect that rather "going for the jugular" and demanding the "right to wear what we want to" at work (which we actually already have, we just rarely exercise it, mainly because employers can exercise their rights to a coherent workplace) we'd be better served by getting skirted garments accepted in the off-hours world (note that I did not say "casual" world -- there's too much baggage there) first, and then migrating the look into the workplace.

Honestly though, we may as well not bother, if the only times we can wear what we like is limited to our off work times. Work is a huge part of our lives, and we are spending more and more time there. I think everyone should have the freedom in what they can wear provided it fits into the decent category.

That's just fatalism, and helps precisely no-one, especially the one being fatalistic.

[Pythos]

CF friend,

Don't confuse my statement with misogyny. I do not think women are inferior, nor do I think they can't drive, also I think the idea that women were put on this planet just to pop babies out is a load of crud.

I do not see how my seeing an inequality in clothing choices is misogynistic. I this inequality unfair. End.

If I truly thought the grass was greener on the other side, then I would be going through the process of gender reassignment surgery, as would many other men I am sure.

Both sexes are getting screwed over.

Misogyny would be saying "men who wear skirts are trying to be like women and therefor are trying to be inferior"

The only thing stopping me from going out in my skirts is the fear of some homophobe taking upon himself to show me what for by beating me up, or my possibly losing my job. Women do not face this, no matter what they wear. (within decency)

[Bob]

I strongly believe in balancing one's needs for identity expression versus one's needs to conform in order to get ahead. If you focus too much on your own identity and have a total lack of conformity, you can end up unemployed and poor, which is no fun. If you focus soley on conformity and ignore your own identity needs, you will end up going insane. There needs to be a balance, in which both needs are addressed, and you're compromising between the two.

There are different levels of skirt acceptance at work.

The most basic level is a job that doesn't care what you wear outside of work. I believe that's a really important basic component, and all jobs should be like that. If your colleague sees you in a skirt at the bar, or sees a skirt in your gym bag, or sees your painted toenails while you're changing shoes at the office, you should not have to worry about that.

Next is a job that allows you to wear skirts to work. Based on our collective experience, some do, some don't. In some cases, we may feel they're being "reasonable" and in others not.

Coming to an interview skirted may certainly help root out intolerant jobs. But it will also eliminate a lot of good jobs, even jobs that would have allowed you to wear a skirt to work. Wearing a skirt to an interview says "my right to wear a skirt is more important than the content of the job I'm interviewing for." No one wants to get mired in that as an employer. In my line of business, you wear a suit to an interview. It's understood you won't wear the suit to the job, but the suit is still standard attire for an interview.

However... if you get hired and prove your worth on the job, then you will find that suddenly a lot more doors open up. If people value you for what you can DO for their company, they will want to let you wear what you like to work, as long as it doesn't cause them trouble. Moreover, if you're already hired and you are fired for wearing a skirt or something, you will have greater leverage in the legal route, if you wish to go that way.

I would suggest you dress more standard in your interviews. At the same time, I would check with corporate HR departments on their diversity policy, dress code, etc. before you accept a job.

In my case: I believe my company would support me if I said I wanted to come to work in a skirt. They are very much on the forefront in terms of diversity and tolerance. I don't wear skirts to work, but I don't worry at all about what would happen if "someone finds out." So why don't I try to wear a skirt to work? Because my field is completely male-dominated, and the only people wearing skirts are admins. Women in my field (but I count zero in my office) tend to dress more like men in order to avoid being mistaken for an admin. I have absolutely zero role models of professional women and how they might wear a skirt appropriately in my professional setting. Seems better just to leave well enough alone.

[crfriend]

Don't confuse my statement with misogyny. [...]

Note that I said that I detect "an undercurrent of misogyny", not the direct article. Perhaps more to the point, the "They can wear this/that, but we (or, more correctly, "I") can only wear this" argument smacks of jealousy, and petty jealousy at that. Jealousy can be a powerful motivator, and can make even the most level-headed person do things, and think thoughts, that they might otherwise find reprehensible.

Both sexes are getting screwed over.

True, but as in all other things, it's a matter of degree. Recall, if you will, the adage that "a rising tide lifts all ships"; by striving for equality, in all things, we will be raising all of us, not just one class. Whimpering about who has more toys serves no concrete purpose, and comes across as whining to the great majority of the population. As I said earlier, if you don't like the situation, set about fixing it. But beware that the fix isn't worse than the existing situation (viz the "Law of Unintended Consequences").

Misogyny would be saying "men who wear skirts are trying to be like women and therefor are trying to be inferior"

Contemplate that comment being made by your average bigot about a bloke wearing a skirt (or any other garment with even a perceived whiff of "femininity") -- that's the real article front and center, except the person making the comment isn't going to make the connection with what he's saying. This perception is likely one of the reasons that many men shy away from skirts, even though they're commonly worn in many parts of the world, and are wonderfully comfortable, if not always the most practical, garments going.

The only thing stopping me from going out in my skirts is the fear of some homophobe taking upon himself to show me what for by beating me up, or my possibly losing my job. Women do not face this, no matter what they wear. (within decency)

Your fear of getting the stuffing kicked out of you may, or may not, be real; however, only you can discover the truth in the matter. Recall that any assailant will, eventually, face the power and majesty of the State over his actions; interpersonal physical violence is not well tolerated in any jurisdiction going, and usually even threats are dealt with harshly. As far as losing your job, if I recall correctly most of the blokes at your workplace already know about your fashion choices -- and it hasn't mattered save for a bit of playful joking. It's far more telling that you can get airplanes back in the air than what colour nail-varnish you use, and your employer seems, at least from what I've heard, understands this.

Finally, as far as what women face, they face getting "hit on" if they dress in anything even remotely provocative. This may explain some of the reasons they've been slowly adopting a grunge look over the years -- getting hit on is a pain, a bother, and can be demeaning.

[Pythos]

Unfortunately they think the outfit was just a costume (which this gown for all intents and purposes was), and do not know or acknowledge my alternative styles. When they see me I am in my work coveralls, or jeans. Though for the shop camping trip, I wore leggings the whole time, except for the river boat trip, which I wore black lycra shorts.

You state that there is jealousy in what I state. Well duh! Actually I would not so much say jealousy, instead I would say resentment.

Resentment that I find myself backing the advancement of women, think women should do whatever they want within decency, and most laws, and yet I can't find any woman out there that could be with a guy wearing a skirt. (I know some here can, and kudos to you). The only reason I wear jeans lately is because I have to, not because I need to or want to. In all the past situations I have worn jeans I would have much prefered skirt or leggings. But because of social constraints I had to wear the other. Women do not face this.

At my dad's funeral there were 7 women. Two, wore dresses. All others were in slacks. Not so long ago this would have been unacceptable, women would be EXPECTED to show up in skirts, or dresses. I am fine with them showing up in slacks, but really did wish that social norms allowed me to wear a skirt as the bottom part of my suit. The problem is Cffriend that women's liberation kinda left guys back in the stone ages when it comes to fashion choices, as well as other things. It should have leveled things for BOTH sexes. In other words worked for true equality.

Now I have heard the arguments that men and women are different. I know this. Women are built to have and rear children. But when they are not in the processes of doing this, they are not much different than men. Most of the differences we speak of are caused by social standards, that in most cases advanced men, and demoted women. Out dated, and pre historic in my book.

How do you like having the idea shoved in your face that because you are male all you want to do is spread your seed and screw everything you see? I personally find this notion to be both repugnant, and out dated. This planet is currently at it's limit when it comes to the number of humans it can support. This is evidenced by the decreasing, air, food, water, quality, and the possible climate change. This is a common notion that is backed up by the media. How about the idea that all straight men love football, any guy that doesn't is less than a man. I am all for people enjoying sports, have a ball. I myself do occasionally enjoy playing such things. I like baseball. But I don't think someone is less than a man if they don't enjoy sports.

I do wish we had more women on this site. The feedback of women is something this place is sorely lacking

[Since1982]

I think there are other issues, and this is being exasperated by your desire to wear skirts.

Don't you mean exacerbated, as exasperated means "out of breath or sweating or frantic or upset over something?"

[Peter v]

Why should we bother....well...I'm going to espouse the rights of someone who gets forgotten easily but is also easily the most important person outside the home in EVERYONE who works' life. I know he/she's not thought of as a person but as an entity, but having BEEN in his/her position I know we are never appreciated until we say 2 words. Then we are covered with praise and appreciation. Usually too late for the person we say the 2 words to.

WHO AM I SPEAKING OF?

I'm left here with the question, what are you talking about? I'm not in the picture. Please help me here. I do think you have put something down very well, but don't see it myself.

And I must add, I myself am living alone, since Jan. 2006.

Ps. O and by the way, yes I said I am going to a shrink, that is something I am not ashamed about, and is something others cannot have any opinion of without knowing the details. Seeking the help with a second / third party is very normal and I am sure that most people have seeked help at some time in their life.

Also what I seem to have omitted, is that at present, and for many years past, there has been no social life to speak of for me, thus living in an social isolation, and I imagine there would be little change for me if I was to have a job, therefore a job taking nearly all of the usable day time ( a day job) and there being probably no social life afterwards, when is wearing skirts / dresses going to happen? ( in a social context) It would have to happen after hours, which of course can, but I do think that if at all possible, I would opt for the extreme choice ( as some see it) to work in a skirt or not at all. That is very conflicting with logic, but so is possibly the thought of men spending any time at all on the way they look, and dress. I have worn T shirts and jeans pretty much all day every day for most of my life. Now I have found a new me, and then somebody suggests al be it carefully, that I take "the easy way". Well even though I cannot say they are wrong, at the moment it is a no no. There are many issues going for me, and I think that many men face deeper issues with skirt wearing than purely wearing a piece of cloth. Personal freedom ( which without money is freedom but to no avail ) and starting life a new, finally being the person you should have been all your life. I am 53, and am not going to spend the next 20 years slowly adapting, fitting in etc. It is now or too late. I didn't ask for this situation to happen, but it is here. Now I find myself in a predicament i would rather not be in, but am. I am being pressurised from all sides to conform, and at the same time I am standing up for myself, with the known consequences.

I am not asking anybody for a solution, but I assume many men have heard the argument "why not just conform".
And seeing all the reactions I am very glad I started the thread. It is very important to talk about this as I think it is something that plays in every true skirt wearer's mind everyday. "I am glad I can choose what to wear today to work" Or Damn, again a day which I earn money, conform but deny myself the free choice of what to wear at / during work. That is an issue which only men who have the new fashin freedom, with regards to skirts / dresses / femme clothing. Especially when women would be allowed to wear most things and you may not at your work. It is a clothing choice, not a "I want to make love and have your children" choice. which goes for both men and women. It sems to rest on gender discrimination. As even if you may in the eyes of others look a fool, at least you are then happy wearing what you want, and not be withheld from doing it. For those for whom skirt wearing is not so much a way of showing / being yourself as you feel you are, and a skirt is just a fine different thing to wear, it is easy to go with convention at work. But when it is a new found identity, meaning much more than just dressing "differently" then it is more complex.

A job is generally confining, and if I am to be confined the best part of each day, possibly with other people, I would wish to dress as I wish to do, that being my life. The time afterwards being just the left over time. I do realise practical / impractical. That is one of the reasons I started the thread. It is an issue that many of us have to face. Sometimes I ask myself when do I stop fitting in and stand for who I am even at all costs?

It is just too easy to suggest to someone to take the easy way and conform.
I guess i'll just have to steal ten million and fake my death, get a new identity and dissappear. Start a new life.
Beyond that, it is every day a new challenge what to do to survive.

[Bob]

I've learned how to conform while not conforming at work. I have beautiful long hair, which I put up in different ways on different days. Sometimes I wear a bit of lipstick to work. And I tend to wear polo shirts (short sleeve), not the standard long sleeves. All this I can "get away" with, and I don't have to wear skirts to work.

Also... the better we know who we are (and are comfortable and happy with that), the less important it becomes to express that in the way we dress in any particular setting.