Physical Violence?

[Since1982]

Not really, unless people are carrying a weapon or are martial artists, most folks don't say unkind things to me in general. Being 6'2'' and over 300 pounds usually makes the few nasty ones think twice or more than twice before saying anything that "might" get them more involved than they really wanted to get involved. The closest anyone has ever gotten is screaming stupid things out of a fast moving vehicle, I just consider the source and go on with my life with a little chuckle.

[iain]

Just thinking about what Bri said, about girls flocking to him because he had a dog -- I think people secretly want to reach out to other people. But they need to feel safe, and they need to know they won't be rejected.

If they pay attention to a happy looking dog with its owner, they know for sure they won't be rejected, and if they are, they can just say they were paying attention to the dog, which in itself is rewarding. The proof is that they probably wouldn't go up to a dog on its own, chained to a railing, and be as effusive or affectionate. The display is an enjoyable way for them to bond with another human being without ever having to expose the real desire for connection, and therefore risk rejection. It's like a diversionary thing which they can enjoy in and of itself, and have the chance of meeting a person to see what they are like, and get kudos from the person for being so affectionate with their dog.

If a guy wears a skirt then pretty well for sure he's not an aggressive part of the military industrial complex! So he's already a safer bet. If he looks furtive and uneasy, it's another thing altogether, but if he's relaxed, it's a major flag saying, "I am approachable and I have my own differences, and I seem to accept them, so I'm likely to accept yours too." Everybody wants acceptance, and fears rejection. They might mask it many different ways, and some mask it with aggression (these are the guys who make fun of anyone different, but they do it to gain the acceptance of others in their group--the reaction is all about them, not at all about you), but inside they're more or less driven by the same motivations.

I went to a big gallery in London in my kilt once and had the friendliest encounter with a complete stranger who never once referred to my kilt but only to the paintings I was looking at. We more or less walked round the gallery together, with her earnestly discussing everything from spoiled teenagers to the price of food, without knowing each other's names or anything.

It's like when people go to get their hair cut: the exclusive attention focused on them is very healthy. But they need an excuse to do it -- if they just went into a place where someone played with ther head and massaged their scalp and talked to them for 20 minutes and asked them how they were feeling, it would be embarrassing because the game would be up and they'd be exposed as being vulnerable, which they don't want! They needed a legitimate excuse behind which they allow themselves to quietly absorb the attention they get.

That's just people! So when you wear a kilt or skirt you can expect that unusual things might happen. They might not, or they might, but they'll be more likely to, and the adventure of not knowing makes those days something special.

[Bri]

That sounds like the exact thing that was happening. Most of these girls were maybe 18-23 and probably had some kind of image complex and meeting a guy wasn't the easiest thing for them to do. A dog was a big ice breaker and medium for them to socialize and find a way to express themselves having a good idea that I wasn't some kind of strange person walking up to them. They know that I can care for a dog and the dog looks good and is behaved which probably gains their confidence. If I were to wear a skirt. my guess is that they would probably not even really see it. Maybe a few people might but assume that I was holding a dog and that made me safe or something.

I also showed the dog to a girl (looked to be native american) in a wheelchair. No I didn't feel sorry for her, but I showed the dog to many people when walking through the stores and of course my dog is a POM so everyone calls him (and suprisingly calls it a her a lot) a puppy.

[JRMILLER]

Guys,
Thanks for your replies -- one of the reasons for bringing up this topic is that it is usually a concern for crossdressers -- that is, to find themselves the victim of violence simply because they are dressed up as women. There have been far too many stories about kids being beat up or committing suicide because they wanted to wear girls clothing. I wanted to see if that translated to men wearing skirts "as men". Appears that it does not, which is very good.

I have had only one negative experience, while in a grocery store some buffoon saw me dressed in my knee-length, pleated demin skirt and yelled out "skirt". Of course, I ignored it and continued on my business.

I also had an odd experience, while exiting a store with the same skirt, a gal entering with her SO, scanned me from head to toe and when her eyes returned to mine her jaw had dropped and there was a look of horror on her face. It made me smile...

My other experiences have been neutral --

Thanks again for your comments, this puts my mind at ease....

[Pleats]

The only bad reaction I ran into was a group of teenage girls that got a little loud. I went to a late night grocery store around 10pm wearing a denim mini. Normally that place is empty that time of night. Only the stocking crew getting the shelves stocked for the next day. I never had any issues there before. I have been there a hundred times in the skirt or kilt. This particular night I turned into the main isle to meet a group of five or six teenage girls. I was pushing a shopping cart so I hoped I could get past without them noticing. It was a hot summer night so from the side maybe they would think the skirt was baggy shorts. No such luck. One of the girls spotted the skirt. She yelled out to the others and the entire group got rather loud. There was no risk of any physical action just the loud high pitched noise of a group of girls. I was concerned that the manager would come running and all of us would get tossed out of the place. They started to follow me. I had one last thing to get but abandoned it and headed for checkout. Two girls followed me to checkout but stayed back about ten feet and did not make a sound. I checked out and left. That was a couple of years ago and it has not happened since. I am in a skirt or kilt just about every time I go there.

[crfriend]

Just thinking about what Bri said, about girls flocking to him because he had a dog -- I think people secretly want to reach out to other people. But they need to feel safe, and they need to know they won't be rejected.

That's an interesting thesis, and one that may be worth exploring a little bit. Whether we accept or admit it, humans are very much social animals, and have an inbuilt need to interact with their fellow humans. Somehow, and I'd really like to know the real forces behind it, we've gotten away from any sense of community and connectedness to those around us that aren't our intimates (immediate family and very close friends), because that's really screwing thing up now. Few things destroy the will to live more than abject isolation.

The "dog as canard" notion may be part of that, and allows one (lonely) human to interact, albeit somewhat indirectly, with another (lonely) human -- without, as Iain puts is, "fear of rejection" (for social animals fear being ostracised more than anything else). A male in a skirt, at least in Western civilisation, may seem to be saying (in effect), "I'm not really part of this culture, and my mode of attire reflects that" so may be "read" as difficult to approach (or, worse, dangerous) and the common focus of the pet may tend to disarm that -- what happens if one removes the skirt from the equation? Does the attention still "flow to the dog", or does it vanish? Is the "human interest" still there?

If a guy wears a skirt then pretty well for sure he's not an aggressive part of the military industrial complex! So he's already a safer bet. If he looks furtive and uneasy, it's another thing altogether, but if he's relaxed, it's a major flag saying, "I am approachable and I have my own differences, and I seem to accept them, so I'm likely to accept yours too." Everybody wants acceptance, and fears rejection.

Here's the fear of being ostracised again. I'd not necessarily say, "It's a safe bet that [the guy] is not aggressive", but would be rather naturally curious as to why he chooses to dress in the manner that he does. The big question, then, would be, "Do I go up to him and simply ask?" "How do I do so without seeming to be intrusive or impolite?" (I'm a bit "old school" and put a premium on trying to be polite, or at least to not offend needlessly.) "What happens if he's simply dismissive of my presense?" (That'd likely hurt.) So, I suspect any way to shift the main focus would be welcome -- hence focussing on the dog.

I went to a big gallery in London in my kilt once and had the friendliest encounter with a complete stranger who never once referred to my kilt but only to the paintings I was looking at. We more or less walked round the gallery together, with her earnestly discussing everything from spoiled teenagers to the price of food, without knowing each other's names or anything.

Now that is seriously wonderful -- and it's the way things should happen, but, sadly, don't seem to very often nowadays. Thanks for sharing that!

[crfriend]

The only bad reaction I ran into was a group of teenage girls that got a little loud. [...] One of the girls spotted the skirt. She yelled out to the others and the entire group got rather loud

That's herd (or mob) mentality in action. Each of the girls was competing for the attention of their little clique, and you just happened to be a convenient focal point.

It would have been pointless to confront them on their behaviour because none of them would have realised what their behaviour was like to anyone outside the group. I'd be tempted to call it "bad upbringing", but that's likely an oversimplification. Rather, I susepect it was just that nobody properly schooled them in decent etiquette -- which, whether one likes it or not, still applies in crowd situations; perhaps even more so.

I was concerned that the manager would come running and all of us would get tossed out of the place.

If the manager had one whit of intelligence, he'd have picked up on what was going on and tossed the troublemakers out, not a paying customer! That's a fear I, personally, would not have had. I would, however, have been mightily annoyed by the high-pitched nattering and catcalls. From the sounds of it, the market mnagement likely is familiar with your mode of attire, and just hasn't commented on it -- which is as it should be -- and would have rallied to your side in this case.

[iain]

In the same gallery day, a group of school kids were clustered around and saw me walk by. One voice giggled, "Skirt?" And another returned, "Kilt!" And this went on, them getting off on the social abrasion somehow. It was just one of those times when unspoken stuff gets spoken by people who don't have the same restraints in place that more experienced adults have.

I remember leaving that gallery by a door and bumping into some people coming the other way. A guy behind me said, "Oh, that looks so silly." I was already steamed up about the school kids so I turned around and said, "So tell me then, WHAT looks so silly?" And he looked astonished, and replied, "That couple! They came through the door without even looking where they were going!"

Another time in a supermarket I was wearing a sarong -- it was a hot day! And an older guy was picking stuff off the shelves and I heard him mutter, "Well, I don't know, of all the silly things to see in a supermarket." Again I was being over sensitive and said, "Explain? What do you mean?"

He waved aloft a tin of beans: "This! Peanuts are not beans! WHO in their right mind stacks BEANS next to PEANUT BUTTER?!"

[AMM]

(Warning! The following is a bad case of PAMBT -- Posting After My BedTime)

I've been wondering where we get our assumption that "stepping out of line" will cause us to be attacked, either verbally or physically, despite experiences to the contrary.

The only thing I've been able to come up with is that this was our experience in childhood, especially in school.

I can't speak for girls (being male and having only sons), but my own experience and that of my children is that childhood is an amazingly brutal time. Especially in the ages around 8--14 or so, boys will taunt and bully one another mercilessly for any and no reason, and the adults around them won't do anything about it. In fact, one gets the distinct impression that they condone or sometimes even encourage it, regardless of anything they may say. While anyone can fall victim to the bullying, those who appear or act in any way different from the other boys are more likely to be targeted. It doesn't take much -- being fatter or thinner or appearing smarter or dumber or not being able to throw a ball as well or having freckles or an accent or a different skin color.

It's particularly bad in all-boy settings: at my summer camp, one of the regular rituals was for a cabin to gang up on a kid in their cabin and then shove his head in the toilet and flush. It was almost a rite of passage, since everyone went through it, unless (like me) you responded so violently that they let you alone, at which point you got to visit the camp director. But he didn't want to know about the toilet (I suppose it had been going on for decades, ever since the camp had flush toilets, or maybe it went on even back when there were only pit toilets), only what you did to your cabinmates. If you've read Lord of the Flies, or seen the movie If ..., you have some idea of what it's like.

Most men learn to minimize or even deny their experiences (only cry-babies complain), or even take pride in them, and they teach their sons to do likewise.

But after going through all that hell, it's not surprising that most men react with barely-suppressed terror to the idea of doing anything that would make them stick out from their fellows.

[SkirtDude]

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[mugman]

Over the course of my first year of donning a kilt there have been no incidents. I don't venture into areas where there is a much higher possibility of provocation - downmarket pubs and bars for instance that attract dropouts. I don't see any point as there are plenty other places to go.
Some college kids in a car did once give me a honk outside a supermarket as I was going in. I looked over and saw several smiling faces pressed against the car windows. Whether it was a 'Good for you' type of honk or not I've no idea. With all the other shoppers milling around the driver could only just have spotted me in passing, and spontaneously pressed the horn - at least he/she had felt the need to react.
Seeing the type of unusual clothing, and various cult styles some college students wear these days, a kilt is quite tame by comparison.

[Peter v]

Only about a week ago, I was with my daughter (23) on a parking lot at a shopping center, and got the thumbs up, very friendly from a young man, about 20, in a car ful of the same age group.

I was surprised to get such a positive reaction from that age group, as they mostly honk their horns and seem to need to shout something out of the window. But even then, mostly not very offending. Just showing off.

Being alone on a deserted street, and meeting up with a car load of 20 ishers , some drunken, could be another story.

As I have read elsewhere, I also often come smiling out of a shop just because of the positive interaction with others because I was wearing a skirt.

Peter v.

[WSmac]

I'm 47, 6'2", 215lbs and usually sport a bushy beard.
I do think that because of this, I tend to not get a lot of comments directed towards my face.

But... I do wear skirts during the warmer months around the local towns and at the college I attend.

I wear my black UK, various sarongs, the Mountain Kilt, and a couple of other women's khaki, poplin, skirts which are all knee-length. One has cargo pockets much like the shorts I wear.

No comments other than appreciation for the UK.

I wore a Macabi once in a town thought to be ultra-liberal and I had an older woman stop me in a grocery store and start in on a diatribe about how ridiculous I looked and how I must be trying to look like a girl, etc....
all while she was sporting pants. (which I pointed out to her).

Now mind you... this is in California. So we may have a bit more of an open-minded community than some states, but we still have our share of idiots.

[Bri]

I was thinking about this last night, and girls have almost the same problem with violence as guys do when wearing skirts. It's something that can be very revealing, and for guys not really accepted yet by most people. Coming back with a whitty comeback can be fun and make you feel like "hhahaha, I've outsmarted you". But really, in reality, the people who make the comments and tease are the ones you probably don't want to make a comeback to. They have it in their mind that what you're doing is wrong and are giving you crap just so they have a reason to retaliate with whatever they feel necessary.

The best idea is to ignore them, and possibly get police or other law enforcement intervention. The police aren't going to tell you (unless they're just absolutely dumb) that you should wear jeans or something. It's your civil right to wear whatever you want, whenever. They'll probably just warn the other person that what they're doing is wrong and to stop doing it. If you don't give the person any reaction and just keep about whatever you're doing, it'll probably end in the best situation which is they'll just realize that you're not going to give into them and they should leave you alone because someone else would be more fun to taunt and get a reaction from than you. This doesn't always work, but then that's what police are for.

[JRMILLER]

It's not hard to mentally put yourself in the position of a woman who decides to carry something like a can of pepper spray in her purse. I once knew a gal who packed a pistol and made no bones about telling people about it.

I am considering taking up karate again, it was fun and useful, but I never had an opportunity to use it outside of class.