Skirting in Ohio

[sambuka]

I agree with other posters here - a kilt is probably a better transition garment from bifurcated to unbifurcated.

And, unless you're a die hard traditionalist, most on this forum (I believe...) will agree that a kilt is simply a different type of skirt, although society believes them to be quite different. Therefore, notwitstanding the fact that your wife will direct the hard questions to you, I think that she will find it much easier to deal with people who have questions about a kilt wearing husband instead of a skirt wearing husband.

Just my .02 cents...

[JRMILLER]

Well, talked with my wife last night and she says she can't be placed in "that" position again -- that is, out with me in a skirt. I asked her what bothered her specifically, she says two things: 1) the reaction and questions by her friends and 2) she is not comfortable with me, cannot be affectionate with me when dressed in a skirt. Thus, she says I will have to skirt on my own.

That effectively locks me into skirting only at home, but I see a problem there too because if she is not comfortable around me and cannot be affectionate when I am skirted, then she is not comfortable in her own home either. She has not said as much, but it is a logical conclusion.

Looks to me like I am at a crossroads -- either give up skirting or give up being married.

Anyone see any other options? I really prefer to remain married, but I am not sure I can give up skirting.

[Pythos]

That's BS.

It's time you turned the tables.

Start pulling away from her when she is wearing pants, low heeled shoes based on men's styles, T-shirt. Basically any garment that until the past couple of decades was a man's only garment, or based off such.

Your wife is being stupid, no better term.

Does she love you? Or does she love the image you represent to her friends? This is a sign your relationship is not all it has been proffered to be.

Be gentle but firm when it comes to turning the tables.

This is such BS

[Hotdog]

Well, talked with my wife last night and she says she can't be placed in "that" position again -- that is, out with me in a skirt. I asked her what bothered her specifically, she says two things: 1) the reaction and questions by her friends and 2) she is not comfortable with me, cannot be affectionate with me when dressed in a skirt. Thus, she says I will have to skirt on my own.

That effectively locks me into skirting only at home, but I see a problem there too because if she is not comfortable around me and cannot be affectionate when I am skirted, then she is not comfortable in her own home either. She has not said as much, but it is a logical conclusion.

Looks to me like I am at a crossroads -- either give up skirting or give up being married.

Anyone see any other options? I really prefer to remain married, but I am not sure I can give up skirting.

I also have this problem and I get around it by wearing a skirt when she is not at home. She works in the mornings and I work from home, so every morning I usally wear a skirt. I sometimes go out into the country during the winter evenings when there is no one around and wear my skirts then. The only other time I get to wear a skirt is during the summer when I go hiking up on the moors in one of my woman's kilts.
Not an ideal situation, but it works for me and saves my marrage. I think most women will put up with their husbands skirt wearing in the hope that it is a passing fad. Not many women will except it as perminant.

[SkirtDude]

deleted

[sambuka]

Looks to me like I am at a crossroads -- either give up skirting or give up being married.

John, I feel for you. Based on my limited experience in skirting, I offer the following:

(1) your wife obviously loves you, or she would not be as protective of "the way we were". Change is hard to accept, especially when you don't understand why there is a need for change;

(2) I understand your frustration but you are the one putting goal posts. Saying either give this or give that puts a frame that limits options, imo. Remember, you've been with her many years, and you want her to accept in mere months what amounts, in her eyes, to a major image change;

(3) there's no way around it, for many women, skirts = feminine, kilts = masculine. If your goal is to wear unbifurcated garments, then I would really emphasize kilt wearing in the near future. My wife's objections largely vanished when she realized that folks around us (friends, family, children) were OK with my kilts. She still has some difficulties with kilts, but I am convinced that skirts would have been an impossible proposition.

(4) on the subject of kilts, I have straight coloured ones and a couple of non-trad union kilts. that said, I only wear, for now, tartan coloured kilts, because I understand that in my wife's mind, these are the only acceptable ones. My goal is to make my kilt wearing as normal as can be, then I can introduce the non-trad models. Properly managed, time can be on my side;

(5) have you considered consulting? We have. My wife finds it a relief that soon, she will be able to talk to somebody from the outside, someone that's non-judgemental, without biases. She loves me and wants to accept this dress change: it's just that she has built up a lot of anger towards this issue, and if your situation is like mine, this subject is really hard to tackle on your own without hurting each other.

In the mean time, I would probably reduce the amount of skirt days - kinda like giving her a break, so that when the subject does pop up, you're both in a much more favourable mood to discuss the issue.

John, good luck.

[alexthebird]

Sambuca's advice is pretty sound. I'd add a couple of things.

This isn't a game or a debate, so trying to score points or being purely logical are probaby counterproductive.

Ultimately, you're going to have to be the one who takes responsibility for resolving this issue, because your wife doesn't see it as her issue. And, frankly, you're the one changing the rules. So no matter how right you may be, she's seeing it as she had something and you've changed it all around and now it isn't what she wants.

So the question really is, what does skirting really mean to you. Is it just a choice you make or is it an expression of who you are? If it is just a fashion choice, then choose something else. If it is an expression of who you are, then the chances are that you and she are going to diverge on something else somewhere down the line, even if you did stop skirting. You can't live a lie, but only you know how important fashion choices are to you.

It's a tough place to be in. I wish you the best with it.[/u][/b]

[JRMILLER]

Well, I had another discussion this morning and told her of my assumptions. She said skirting at home was OK, she really didn't want to be with me around people when I am skirted, esp. people she knows.

We reassured each other our love and will take it one day at a time. I don't know if she will ever get to where I am WRT skirting, but after a lot of time she may.

I wear coveralls a lot for pleasure and sometimes for work. In my younger days, I wore them all-the-time. She didn't like those either and went so far as to buy a pair for herself and wear them all-the-time. I hardly noticed and she gave up in frustration. Eventually, she accepted them.

Perhaps it will go that way for skirts too, this make take a year or two. It's only been 3 months so far......

She would like to see some other guy wearing skirts, any other guy so she could then point to him and say I am just following a trend.

So, let's have a skirting convention somewhere and we will attend? How's St. Louis sound? That's sort of partway....

[Pythos]

I could see this being an issue with parrents. But with someone that supposedly loves you, through good or bad, feast or famine, and all other vows stated at the wedding ceremony, this is just sad and tragic.

She is being irrational, and un supportive in my eyes.

What other aspects of YOUR life does she control?

[crfriend]

I could see this being an issue with parrents. But with someone that supposedly loves you, through good or bad, feast or famine, and all other vows stated at the wedding ceremony, this is just sad and tragic.

At the risk of sounding pedantic, I feel the need to point up that long-haul relationships can be surprisingly dynamic at times, and sometimes those very dynamics can tear them asunder. Such relationships are two-way streets; both partners must be sensitive to the other's needs. Shoving ultimatums into the mix is a (in my opinion) recipe for disaster. But, the astute will find that at the core of successful long-haul relationships is a willingness to be flexible in the face of change.

Sapphire got quite a ration of "change" when I announced that I'd made myself a skirt and when I started wearing skirts publically. In quiet moments, she's still a wee bit confused and unsure of precisely why I do, and I'm most appreciative that she just (in "guy terms") deals with it. It's not like I've gone and changed some fundamental aspect of who I am as a human being; I just sport different fabric below the waist! She asked herself all the "relevant questions" about "why is he doing this?" and has posted her observations separately.

She is being irrational, and un supportive in my eyes.

Whether we like it or not, irrationality is a fact of life. My personal experience points up that blokes are more likely than gals to deal with stuff at a purely logical and rational basis, but that's my experience. Yes, at a purely rational basis, what one wears for clothing matters not one whit so long as one complies with the local indecency laws and the need to keep warm (I quite deliberately left the notion of modesty out) -- but that argument isn't going to hold much weight when placed to folks with life-experiences that state that "women wear skirts; men do not".

In the real world, as a skirted bloke, are you more likely to take grief (in public) from women or from men? I'll posit the latter; men tend to "act out". Women, who typically haven't been "trained" to act out, act in private, within the constraints of whatever relationship they may be in -- and that's what's at play here. Both acts are inherently irrational (bereft of reason), but both are natural and, ultimately, understandable. That doesn't make them "right", but that's just life.

What other aspects of YOUR life does she control?

With all due respects, sir, that question was just out of line.

[JRMILLER]

Carl,
Thanks, very well said.

[mugman]

I would see kilts as a good alternative. To require permission or approval to wear a kilt, especially if your wife realises that you are really uncomfortable in wearing pants all the time, would be totally unreasonable of her. IMO this would be as unacceptable as her not checking your approval for whatever she wants to wear.
It doesn't have to be an over-formal heavyweight job. There are plenty of medium and lightweight designs around which provide more or less the same reasons for skirt wearing without making waves.
I've not married, but until Cupid becomes a better shot, I'll envy couples who have an obviously successful and loving relationship. It seems an extreme waste to me to jeopardise this if a simple compromise can be struck.

[Pythos]

How was that last question out of line?

I have heard too many stories of spouses controlling their spouse. I have memories of a fellow that used to visit our hanger. Owner of a nice Beechcraft Bonanza. One day he came by announcing he was getting married. Several months later he stated she had told him it was her or the plane...the plane was sold. Weeks later (that is weeks), after the plane and hanger were gone, he came mopeing back. He told us she had left him, and he had no plane.

This is an extreme example to me of a over controlled relationship.

In my opinion a relationship that has over controlling in it is a crappy one.

My question was a legitimate one. Considering that this fellows wife is willing to destroy the marriage based on the clothing he chooses to wear. Meanwhile wives will stick with men that beat them, while spending most of their time supporting their favorite sports team, and or drinking excessive amounts of alcohol.

[crfriend]

How was that last question out of line?

Perhaps I adhere to an older set of etiquette rules than others here, but I've always understood it to be quite rude to personally challenge someone very openly about very personal matters in a public forum. As I say, that notion may be obsolete now, but that's my life experience talking.

I have heard too many stories of spouses controlling their spouse. I have memories of a fellow that used to visit our hanger. [...]

That relationship was dead from day one, and it's sad that it came to a close the way it did. But, one needs to remember that long-haul relationships are the exception not the rule -- and truly successful, loving, long-haul relationships are even rarer. The general trend in modern western society seems to be one of "serial monogamy" where partners change over time. Unfortunately, the public mind is stuck with the Victorian ideal of "til death do us part" which is largely an unattainable ideal; this tends to make us put up with behaviours in our marriages that would tear friendships apart.

In my opinion a relationship that has over controlling in it is a crappy one.

Agreed, but what are the consequences for terminating said relationship? There may be compelling reasons to "hang on in quiet desperation" (Thanks, Pink Floyd!) -- reasons which outsiders to the relationship are unaware.

My question was a legitimate one. Considering that this fellows wife is willing to destroy the marriage based on the clothing he chooses to wear.

"Willing" implies intent. I don't sense intent in this instance; I sense misunderstanding and competing life-experiences that get in the way of coming to a rational thought-out solution. At least the couple in question are trying to work the problem out. Far more corrosive would be for one (or both) of them to take an attitude of "whatever" and allow the problem to fester.

[Sasquatch]

That effectively locks me into skirting only at home, but I see a problem there too because if she is not comfortable around me and cannot be affectionate when I am skirted, then she is not comfortable in her own home either. She has not said as much, but it is a logical conclusion.

Looks to me like I am at a crossroads -- either give up skirting or give up being married.

Anyone see any other options? I really prefer to remain married, but I am not sure I can give up skirting.

John,
I'm sorry to hear of your marital difficulties. It is a balancing act in my own life at times. I try to respect my wife's space and not wear skirts when it would really cause her discomfort, but I also expect her to accept a bit of discomfort once in a while for my own happiness.

Try to reassure your wife that this is about your happiness and isn't something you do just to offend her. Ask her what it is expressly about a man in a skirt that disturbs her. If she thinks it makes a man look weak, silly , and ineffectual, gently ask her if that is the way she sees herself and all other women. In order to accept you, she'll have to confront her feelings and insecurities. You should gently encourage her to discuss it.

She's probably more concerned about why you would want to be different from other men. I don't think any of us can clearly explain that in understandable terms. Let her know that you like "pushing the envelope" and that it makes you happy and that you would be quite unhappy if denied. Let her know that you'll try not to make her uncomfortable in certain situations, if she can accept you as you choose to be in other situations. Then be non-chalant about skirting, and stick to the more masculine fabrics, styles and colors for a while. Avoid the "in your face!" fashion choices.

If she digs in her heels, then there may be some other underlying issues that existed before your interest in skirting emerged, and she'll probably bring those to the forefront in short order. She needs to know that your "cartharsis" about skirting doesn't change your feelings for her, and doesn't alter your sexual interest. If she has begun perceiving you as "feminine", then perhaps she feels you chose her because you see her as "masculine", and that, naturally, would disturb her.

With all due respect for Pythos, please don't follow his advice. Act calmly and maturely. Maintain your composure and keep the high ground, ethically and emotionally, at all times. Always be rational, sincere, straightforward, and speak from the heart. Keep your anger in check, even when she gets angry. Let her know gently that this is who you are and it will always be important to you, but not as important as the person you love. But give her pause to consider what her quashing your desires will inevitably do to your relationship.

Good luck up on the tightwire. We can all use a little of that.

"I'm up on a tight rope, one side's hate and one is hope..."
Leon Russell - Tight Rope

sasq