Workplace Fashion Freedom for Women

[Bob]

There's been a recent thread that expresses jealousy over the supposed fashion freedom that women have in the workplace, versus men.

I do not believe that this fashion freedom really exists. True, men are expected to wear pretty standard, boring stuff to work. Although there may seem to be more leeway as to what women wear to work, I believe that the expectations placed upon women with respect to the way they look are more numerous, more stringent, less explicit and in a way more strictly enforced.

I don't know of ANY women who feel they can wear anything they want to work. This makes me look too old, that makes me look like an admin, do I look fat in this dress? Not to mention expectations of (male) bosses who want pretty employees to "liven" their workday, and employers who even explicitly hire women for the way they look, over and above what they can accomplish. The expectations placed upon women by our society are numerous and contradictory.

Just look at Hillary Rodham Clinton. Whether or not you voted for her --- how frequently did the press scrutinize how she looked and how she dressed? How frequently did they scrutinize Obama's dress? Is Clinton's outfit really THAT important with respect to how she might have run this country?

In my experience, just about any woman looking to fulfill her potential in the professional workplace looks upon the (relative) lack of expectations of professional menswear with envy. If it's possible, I challenge any man here to go to work as a woman for a week --- not just wearing a skirt, but playing the entire role. Makeup too. And make sure you're dressed appropriately, not in some wild dress that makes you stand out like a sore thumb.

Would any women like to comment on this?

[Since1982]

Hear hear Bob.. Well said! Absolutely right. My mom, who was a professional songwriter in her youth and I was in my teens, complained all the time about what which publisher wanted to see in her clothing and makeup and hair styles before he looked at her songs. You'd think it would be the other way around, after all, the publisher was going to make serious money with her songs and only pleased his eyes with how she looked. Her publisher was Sammy Kaye a very famous bandleader of the 30's and 40's who retired and opened Music Sales Inc. He's gone but his company, MSI, is the biggest song publishing house in the world today. I get royalties from them and BMI (Broadcast Music International) who collects royalties from performances and "canned" music plays.

[alexthebird]

My sister is a pianist who plays classical music and arranges and accompanies choral groups. I often hear her complain that men can buy one outfit, a basic tux with white shirt and white bow tie and they are all set. Get dressed, comb hair, play music. Women in the orchestra need to buy outfits that require a little thought (they have to blend in but still be unique), often multiple outfits (with a change of shirt and a steam gun a man can go for a long time without sending his stuff out to the cleaners - how many times can a woman wear the same thing without cleaning it?), and they still have to be concerned about hair styles and makeup. She would love to be able to deal with her stage presence the way a typical male classical musician does.

[SkirtedViking]

Well, they complain for not being able to look plain, some of us complain that we look plain and simple. What is the conclusion - women are expected to look in a certain way though that is rarely obligatory and is expected mostly on some special ocassions, while we the males are espected to look the same way no matter what the occasion is. When I go around the neighbourhood most women are dressed in a male manner (trousers,t-shirts,trainers,baseball cap, etc.) and some jobs give the opportunity for a woman to look as masculine as she wants to without the fetish or homosexual bulls*it that is usually applied just for males when it comes to the appearance, so our situatuon is far worse in my opinion.
P.S. I live in an European country and this observation is based on European societies.

[Departed Member]

It appears that thinking over "Women's Freedoms" in the USA and the UK are diametrically opposed. Even where 'dress codes' are suddenly applied (like my last job), they are largely ignored by the women - and the management are too afraid to attempt to uphold them. However, if a bloke's attire strays a smidgeon from the dictat, then all h*ll will break loose.

We had some really stupid 'nitpicking' items (including some retrospective ones!) which were certainly not kosha, legality-wise. Because of a serious foot injury, I had to wear slippers to work for a while, and some member of management, rather than ask me, told my department head to stop me wearing them (and this, after having had a moan about the colour(?) of the soles of my shoes! I immediately asked to file a harrassment complaint against the person concerned (didn't care if it was the overall boss!). My department head was loathe to give me a name. "OK", I said, "No problem! We'll just take it to a civil court and you WILL be my main witness!" I left him 24 hours to take it in, before asking for a couple of hours 'leave of absence' to meet with my solicitor. In the interim, some of my female colleagues came to work wearing 'forbidden' clothing (mainly denim articles). Not one was approached! My department head was in a state of panic, so was his union rep (it was the union that had sought the d*mn dress code!). Having reminded them that I would be also seeking time off with pay for my supportive female colleagues to attend court, I offered them a compromise. An unreserved apology from the 'top man' and I'd not go to court. Nothing less. The next day, 'top man' saw me in the corridor, asked how my injury was progressing and did I need any extra help.

The point of this illustration? In the UK, at least, it pays to have your female colleagues 'on your side'. They (the women) were willing to force the management to rescind the 'no Kilts' ruling, but I said that although Kilts were excellent outdoor clothing, they were 'a pain in the ar*e' to sit all day at a desk in!

[Stevie D]

My sister is a pianist who plays classical music and arranges and accompanies choral groups. I often hear her complain that men can buy one outfit, a basic tux with white shirt and white bow tie and they are all set. Get dressed, comb hair, play music. Women in the orchestra need to buy outfits that require a little thought (they have to blend in but still be unique), often multiple outfits (with a change of shirt and a steam gun a man can go for a long time without sending his stuff out to the cleaners - how many times can a woman wear the same thing without cleaning it?), and they still have to be concerned about hair styles and makeup. She would love to be able to deal with her stage presence the way a typical male classical musician does.

I'm an orchestral musician (clarinettist). I absolutely loathe the mens' standard orchestral concert attire of DJ/tux with a bow tie. I especially hate having the latter restrictive item of torture around my neck when I am playing.

For several years now, I have always worn a long black skirt and black open neck top when on the concert platform, just like the women do. Far more comfortable, and not a great drain on one's resources to assemble a concert wardrobe which I can choose from: two long black skirts, one fine woolen mix, lined, one black silk wrap-around for the summer months; two plain black linen tops; one plain black cotton top, all with loose full length sleeves; plain black flat slip-on shoes or mary-janes with black opaque knee-highs in winter, black sandals with bare feet in summer. It doesn't look odd, I fit in with the general orchestral appearance. No-one has EVER questioned my clothing choice; not other orchestra players, conductors, leader, audience, just no-one.

It's all low-maintenance, just change/wash/iron the top after a couple of wearings; the skirts get washed, cleaned occasionally.

No problem.

[sapphire]

The points that Bob made were excellent.

I'd like to add some of my own. How a woman dresses for work is in part determined by the "company couture" and the impression she wants to make. Some companies are more formal and some are more casual. Some women dress to get attention, some dress to get the next promotion.

At one point, I was running computer operations for three co-located factories and did a h*ck of a good job too. When I left, three men were hired to do the job that I had done alone. Now, at that time, I had a rather nice shape and a favorite outfit was a leotard, long wrap dance skirt and matching tights and matching high heels. After I left, I was not remembered for doing the work of three men and doing it better than they did, I was remembered for being really sexy

As I moved along in my career, I tended to dress more plainly. I wanted the focus to be my work, not my clothing.

When I was teaching at community college, I tended to dress in brighter colors, more flaboyant patterns but still a "traditional" silouette. (usually dark trousers, bright blouses, sweater and vests and bright jackets) I also told more jokes.

As a college trustee, I wore finely tailored skirted business suits and dresses and some of my classroom wear. What I wore depended on the place, function and formality of the meeting.

Now all of this might imply that I had a lot of leeway, but when you think about it, I had to have multiple wardrobes for my multiple roles. Still, today, when I go on a rescue, go to the vet, go to the shelter, I'll wear very casual clothing, usually trousers because of safety reasons.

But, if I testify at the State House, I'll wear something closer to business formal. What I wear to various meetings depends on the place, function and formality of the meeting. For example, on the 24th I'll be going to a meeting that will be a kick off for a capital campaign for one of the rescues I work with. I'll need something professional, but not executive. (That would come later as we go out begging for money)

I'd posit that none of us really has fashion freedom in the workplace. We are all bound by rules, written or not. The only "advantage" that a woman has in the workplace is that she is required to have a much larger and varied wardrobe than a man does.

[Bri]

The company we worked for (I worked there quite a bit longer than she did) had a business casual dress code and they had clearly defined styles of dress. Yet it was really difficult for the overworked managers and leads to actually care enough to keep up on things. Unless you were wearing something that was really out of place and showed way too much (again someone did that there repeatedly, but like most of the men in there who had a lack of any real social life, they didn't complain, why would they?) and had nothing said.

Then again that's not at all a good example of a company to look up to for its corporate ethics. The main dress for people in there was a nicer shirt, and jeans. I and many other employees (including women) wore essentially the same thing day after day. No one really minded because most of the women didn't want the kind of attention they would get from wearing a skirt of any length. It would've been as many put it "stupid" for a woman to come in wearing a skirt that was knee length or shorter. One woman I remember she came in, in a ruffled tye-dyed skirt that was tight and higher in the front than the back. She was also very thin and attractive and had a nice personality. I can't tell you how many times the men with no life and probably no relationship drooled over her as she walked by their desks.

I think one of the reasons why women can get away with more dress code violations is so many women in the place probably dress similarly and the amount of difference between them is so small that if a manager talked to them about the issue, they would have 5 or more people to mention. Saying that they were wearing a similar thing to this other employee and they weren't told anything. It would be a bigger headache to tell the whole floor or where ever that then it would be to just drop it. The concept of safety in numbers. Men can't get away with this nearly as easily because most men won't wear anything different and therefore the single man who goes against the code has little to no recourse.

[Peter v]

Bri, I suspect that if suggested, indeed women don't have it any better than men, that is probably a misconception by men....

I like your reply (the others too,) especially:

"It would be a bigger headache to tell the whole floor or where ever that then it would be to just drop it. The concept of safety in numbers. Men can't get away with this nearly as easily because most men won't wear anything different and therefore the single man who goes against the code has little to no recourse."

I know that if a skirt wearing man would be singled out for any reason with regards to his skirting outfit, although everybody has to stand up for his self, has to come up for HIS personal life, most probably all the other men at your place of work would be standig behind you, not as a support, but probably making gestures .

We know which personal choice we make and have to go it alone.

You have to be a real man with balls to wear skirts, at work.

[Bob]

sapphire... for comparison, I have two pairs of dress slacks and about four or five polo shirts, and a pair of black shoes. It does the trick for my place of work. If I really want to dress up, I'll move to a long-sleeved shirt. Or the (one) suit. Shopping for work really is not that complex.

[Peter v]

My sister is a pianist who plays classical music and arranges and accompanies choral groups. I often hear her complain that men can buy one outfit, a basic tux with white shirt and white bow tie and they are all set. Get dressed, comb hair, play music. Women in the orchestra need to buy outfits that require a little thought (they have to blend in but still be unique), often multiple outfits (with a change of shirt and a steam gun a man can go for a long time without sending his stuff out to the cleaners - how many times can a woman wear the same thing without cleaning it?), and they still have to be concerned about hair styles and makeup. She would love to be able to deal with her stage presence the way a typical male classical musician does.

You are quit right, except that women do look wonderful, and men are just there.....
If it is easy what we look for, get back to china some years back, every one in the same army suit.......
Yes, women do need more time to get things right, that is well known by men who not only take the time to see that, but when they themselves dress other than the very easy manly way in skirts, they too stand at the closet and say "I don't have anything to wear" not because they don't but because they have to choose which total outfit they think is suitable for the outing. Women are used to "having" to do that because our culture has so required that of them. Luckily they don't have to comply all of the time any more. Women aren't always that free as is often all too easily stated. They do have a much greater fashion choice, which is more expensive and more intensive than what is generally required from men.

[crfriend]

Yes, women do need more time to get things right, that is well known by men who not only take the time to see that, but when they themselves dress other than the very easy manly way in skirts, they too stand at the closet and say "I don't have anything to wear" not because they don't but because they have to choose which total outfit they think is suitable for the outing.

You know, you might be onto something there. Before I started wearing skirts I never had a problem putting an outfit together; now I can fuss over it for quite some time....

In any event, I am very glad I don't have to maintain a number of discrete wardrobes.

[sapphire]

And consider what I used to have to go through. Not only did I have to choose the look that was appropriate for the occasion, but then choose the pieces that I wanted to achieve the look that I wanted, then choose the jewlery to go with the clothing, figure out how to do up my hair, do up my hair, figure out what makeup would compliment the look and apply said makeup. Now as a contact lense wear AND an eyeglass wearer, applying makeup, especially eye makeup was a real chore. I had to do it with "naked" eyeballs and I'm half blind, and try not to poke myself in the eye and hope that the makeup didn't flake off and wedge under a contact lens, resulting in intense pain, tearing and makeup running down my face like the Joker from Batman.

This was not freedom, this was a requirement for the time.

I appreciate and support men who choose to go through the above rituals, but being required to go through them was something I grew to hate.

[Peter v]

yes Sapphire, Quote: "This was not freedom, this was a requirement for the time.

I appreciate and support men who choose to go through the above rituals, but being required to go through them was something I grew to hate."

"requirement" says it all. luckily today it is somewhat less an requirement than some years back.

Sometimes I think "what have I started?" When dressing anything like women do, thus anything more than only replacing pants for a simple skirt, the challenge only becomes exponentially greater. And you have to have the clothing in house, And be able to find a combination satisfying...

BUT once being so far, there is very much enjoyment to be had, if you start getting it right. It is a choice for me, and I am still not forced to be in any routine as would be for a working person. ( that will / may probably change soon but no certainty as yet, no not a job promise) I am as free as my wardrobe allows me. I do sometimes tire a bit from shaving my body to have a somewhat decent look. I don't like shaving, those dam.ed stubbles.. but do enjoy the result and look of a practically smooth ( looking) skin. I can imagine men just going for the easy way, letting beards grow, not shaving anywhere, being just a man, nothing special, just easy going. There is no stress and no work in that at all. That is for me not very interesting, but all the hassle is sometimes nearly too much. I am not planning to give up, because it is so enjoyable, just really great to wear what I do. Adding a whole new dimention to my life.

[Pythos]

There is something that seems to be getting skipped over in this discussion.

Women have a choice between a skirted outfit, and pants.

Men? Not so.

I think this is a double standard that is due for extinction.