Was Asked To Build An Adult Tranny Site

[Peter v]

Well said, crfriend,

"all too often we rise to the offence offered. I think it's far better to simply turn the other cheek than throw down a gauntlet."
Although true, there is a problem with that, as when any statement, in this case negative, is not challenged, then it stands, stays standing, more or less as a truth, as a fact. As most of us take offence in or are at a disagrement with the statement, it therefore MUST be challenged. Most "offenders" of placing statements to provoke know that, and use it. If their statement is not challenged, then they get away with whatever negative or worse statement, and when challenged, they too have their way because they have plagued others with rubbish, and forced others into a verbal fight. Either way "we" are victims of those individuals. We cannot change our victim status, but we can fight and at least put things right.

Most decent people know what NOT to say, ( "etiquette" ) even though they possibly may think it, which they are free to do, or say it in such a way that it is not offensive, a tact which most on the forum well understand and so prevent such discussions. There are however some, maybe even on this forum, who seem to take great enjoyment out of deliberately placing such things, or they may themselves be blind to that, but I think that blindness is very (doubtful) scarce.

When individuals are found to be "guilty" of structually doing that, I for one would rather not see them on the forum again, as none of "us" I would think, are waiting to be a victim of such garbage.

( There may be from time to time accidental negative input, but that is generally immediately corrected as being just that, accidental, with the placer giving excuses for that. That is then no "problem" at all, it being obviously accidental. )

Stanley Kubrick's A Clockwork Orange. is a brilliant film, (the film, not what is portrayed,) only for the mature and stable person. I have the DVD.

I think this discussion is all about our freedom, which is to be used, and NOT MISUSED. The right of freedom of speech is not the right to insight a fight be it verbal, to insult, to deliberately bigot issues. We men have come a long way, now that "we" have finally overwon our fears and misconceptions about wearing skirts, enjoy that freedom and ( I distance myself ) (distance ourselves) from any individuals who deliberately undermine, disturb misuse that freedom either in word or deed.

[Departed Member]

"I think it's far better to simply turn the other cheek."

Mmnn. Mmnn. An oft repeated "quote". Or, rather mis-quote. It would seem this has come to mean, if someone (say), thumps you, you just let them thump you again. In it's original script, it meant something different. Anyone here who studies bird behaviour would (should I say should?) know the true meaning. Look at a crow studying a potential enemy/prey/food source. It first assesses the situation with (say) its left eye, then re-appraises it with the other. In other words, if there's a problem (you're up against seemingly overwhelming odds, for instance, or just someone else's viewpoint!), don't judge it by what you first see, but look at it (approach it) from a different angle. You may then see another side to an argument, or an escape route from a potential predicament! I think that's exactly where this topic is going! So, I'll go a little further............

Although true, there is a problem with that, as when any statement, in this case negative, is not challenged, then it stands, stays standing, more or less as a truth, as a fact. As most of us take offence in or are at a disagrement with the statement, it therefore MUST be challenged.

Unless I'm way out, there appears to be a mis-conception about the contents of the "Transvestite" box - for one very good reason. There are no seperate words for the different groupings of folk who may loosely fall into that 'box'. The 'connection' is purely that the term (related to men) covers "those who wear (principally) women's apparel and make-up to appear to others that they are, in fact, a woman". Can we start by agreeing that, please?

OK, one group are en route to becoming "Transgendered". That is attaining as near a physical resemblance to the opposite gender as possible. Please note, this does not necessarily involve wearing un-bifurcated clothing. There is currently (as far as I can ascertain) no single word to describe their 'status'.

Secondly, there are those who live 24/7 in the clothing and actions of the opposite gender, and have no wish/intention to re-arrange their assigned genitals. Again, however, this does not necessarily involve wearing un-bifurcated clothing. Still no 'real' classification, other than, uunfortunately, the generic "Transvestite" tag.

Thirdly, the occasional (i.e, 'weekend', 'while the wife's away') full-blown "appear as a woman" (from a man's perspective). These are often secretive, or usually mix with the like-minded. These conveniently tend to drop into the "Crossdresser" 'box'.

Now, the fourth faction is rather different, and are almost certainly (from Ziggy's descriptions), the out-and-out "Fetish Brigade"! They don't simply wear skirts "because they feel good", they're only part of the (chosen) outfit. Away from the seaside environs, they may even wear (usu. embroidered) 'capris' (rather than skirts)!!!! They have one other 'behavioural twist' - namely, they are (and I'd like to see/meet one, just one, who isn't) loud-mouthed, obnoxious and downright anti-social beings. From our perspective, they represent, "Armagedon". They give ALL skirt-wearers a bad name - regardless of gender. Apparently there are those here, who wish to 'downplay' that (alleged) image. OK, that's fine! I would have to assume, in all fairness, you rarely, if ever, come into contact with these people. So, I'll throw a small challenge down. Just spend a Friday, or Saturday, evening in Nottingham's city centre and watch the 'fireworks' (and I don't mean in the sky!). Will you then, 'turn the other cheek', and see them as we do?

[crfriend]

"I think it's far better to simply turn the other cheek."

Mmnn. Mmnn. An oft repeated "quote". Or, rather mis-quote. It would seem this has come to mean, if someone (say), thumps you, you just let them thump you again.

Not in my book. The way I look at it is more like, "I'll give you one chance at that, and if you persist then I shall thump you righteously." There is nothing wrong in a vigourous self-defence -- in fact it's expected behaviour. What's wrong is "going off half-cocked". In essence, I see it as more of a, "Don't pre-judge the other's intention, but if the other's intention is malign then defend one's self."

Unless I'm way out, there appears to be a mis-conception about the contents of the "Transvestite" box - for one very good reason. There are no seperate words for the different groupings of folk who may loosely fall into that 'box'.

Here's my take on the matter:

"Group one" (the "on their way to becoming "transgendered") don't necessarily fall into the "transvestite" (a fancy pseudo-scholarly word meaning, precisely, "cross dresser") box at all because they perceive themselves as women. This is a complex phenomenon, I don't fully understand all the dynamics involved, and am not qualified to comment on it.

Group two is an interesting case, but is likely not all that common in practise due to societal prejudice. This may be where some of the folks here might like to be, but that's pure conjecture; I suspect most here are perfectly happy to bow to societies whims when it suits everybody. This is not necessarily evil.

The third is the classic "transvestite" (cross-dresser) group and is the one conveniently identified by the DSM (note that it applies to males only). The DSM does have a convenient "out" in it that states that the behaviour must cause distress to the participant to be diagnosable, but that's a dodge; the thing is still unaccountably biased.


Finally, the fourth is merely a manifestation of "chaotic" (for want of a better term, the one used in D&D seems apt here) behaviour; it's disconnected from the local environs, it's at odds with local mores. It's also certainly not a good way to get "alternate fashion" accepted by the mainstream. One does not go up to somebody, cudgel them, and say, "love me"; that just doesn't work. In deference to Merlin, I'll have to admit I've never met one of those. If ever I do, the rules above about "the other cheek" will apply.

So, I'll throw a small challenge down. Just spend a Friday, or Saturday, evening in Nottingham's city centre and watch the 'fireworks' (and I don't mean in the sky!). Will you then, 'turn the other cheek', and see them as we do?

Well, not ever having been to Nottingham's centre, I can not know what transpires there. Perhaps film or video might be of assistance? I just don't see most reasonable folks getting in other folks' faces about their choice in clothing. Calm and reasoned discussion I can see, but ranting and raving will do nothing to change the impression of the public at large.

[ziggy_encaoua]

Transvestitism is purely a fetish & I base this on that basically all the trannies I've had the misfortune of meeting all were fetishists, they were dressing up as girls to get their jollies. Fine they aren't doing any harm but its not what I'm about or want to be associated with.

[Bob]

I agree with many others here on the general "categories" described. No system of categories is perfect, of course.

I've come to believe that TS/TG is a continuum. It ranges from people who get a surgical gender reassignment, to people who live 24/7 as the "other" gender, to people who retain their original gender but live in a more androgyous manner --- often presenting themselves in ways and engaging in activities that are more commonly associated with the other gender.

And then there are men who want to wear skirts and have no TS/TG leanings.

SkirtCafe seems to have a mix of men with no TS/TG leanings and men from the more "conservative" end of the TS/TG spectrum. These two groups have two things in common that make them compatible on this board: (1) a core male identity, and (2) a desire to for transparency in lifestyle. A third common feature is a tendency toward libertarian values, which really helps with tolerance toward those who are different (since we are diverse).

The "full-scale" Transsexual is not really included in SkirtCafe discussion. My experience reading transsexual forums is that the discussion is heavily focused on the physical aspects of transsexualism --- hormone regimens, how do you feel about your "new" body, details on surgery, do you miss anything from the "old self", etc. SkirtCafe is not equipped to deal with any of these issues.

The "classic crossdressers" are also not included in SkirtCafe discussion. Study after study have found that this group tends to lean conservative --- the "family man." Cross-dressing seems to be a form of stress relief from conservative social expectations. Classic crossdressing culture tends to reinforce traditional social gender roles, thereby reinforcing the forces that created the need for "relief" to begin with. SkirtCafe is philosophically very different: we are explicit about a desire to re-define social expectations surrounding gender. We also tend to be more libertarian from the outset. And since we skirt in public, there's an entirely different social dynamic that surrounds it; secrets can be burdensome. Last but not least, classic crossdressers create a femme alter ego, we do not.

There are plenty of TS/TG and classic crossdresser web sites out there. SkirtCafe exists in a space that is comparatively underserved. Most of our members do not feel comfortable on a classic crossdresser or TS/TG website. Moreover, many of our members have been treated badly in classic crossdressing circles, either in person or on-line. Many times I've heard the experience of being shouted down when you suggest "why don't I just wear a skirt as a man." Something about that suggestion seems the be threatening.

[Pythos]

I am concerned about this quote.

Now, the fourth faction is rather different, and are almost certainly (from Ziggy's descriptions), the out-and-out "Fetish Brigade"! They don't simply wear skirts "because they feel good", they're only part of the (chosen) outfit. Away from the seaside environs, they may even wear (usu. embroidered) 'capris' (rather than skirts)!!!! They have one other 'behavioral twist' - namely, they are (and I'd like to see/meet one, just one, who isn't) loud-mouthed, obnoxious and downright anti-social beings. From our perspective, they represent, "Armageddon". They give ALL skirt-wearers a bad name - regardless of gender. Apparently there are those here, who wish to 'downplay' that (alleged) image. OK, that's fine! I would have to assume, in all fairness, you rarely, if ever, come into contact with these people. So, I'll throw a small challenge down. Just spend a Friday, or Saturday, evening in Nottingham's city centre and watch the 'fireworks' (and I don't mean in the sky!). Will you then, 'turn the other cheek', and see them as we do?

Not all the "non-traditional male clothing" I wear is unbifibrucated. As you know I wear leggings or catsuits more often than jeans. Bri recently posted that he has been wearing capris. Now in this paragraph Merlin posted it would seem that Bri and myself fall into this fourth category, along with others here.

I do know of the kind of people you speak of, the loud and obnoxious people.

But we all here can be conscidered that by most of the general public for wearing what we want. To them we are bucking the trend.

I have stated this once before, I think the main reason there are more male to female crossdressers is because in most respects it is easier for a man to try to look like a woman and get the freedom of clothing choice we all here would like, than it is for an obvious male to go out in a skirt or dress. This is made all the more challenging if hose and or heels are added.

What was meant by the paragraph here, who exactly was the poster refering to.

[ziggy_encaoua]

many of our members have been treated badly in classic crossdressing circles

I can testify to this & this is because that transvestites tend not to really like our kind of clothing philosophy

One reason I reckon is they want gender clothing stereotypes reinforced not dismantled as many of us want to achieve

In fact I’ve encountered trannies who really just didn’t get MFF baically they didn’t see the point.

[alexthebird]

I've come to believe that TS/TG is a continuum.

Can I take it bit further? I've come to believe that gender identity is a continuum.

I find this discussion of language and categories interesting. There was a time when I thought of myself as a tranny. I was heavily involved in several tranny newsgroups and forums (fora?) and spent a couple of years working in the office of a tranny advocacy group. There is a lot more variation out there than seems to have seeped into the conscious of folks around the Skirt Cafe, including a not insignificant number of FTMs.

The community has a different understanding of what the words you've all been defining mean.

A transvestite is generally looked down upon, because they tend towards the fetishistic. They aren't serious, they're just in it for kicks.

A cross-dresser occasionally presents himself as a women, but it is usually for psychological well-being, or because the person is comfortable presenting a public persona as either gender.

Someone who is transgendered has a psychological identification that doesn't match their body and they feel no need to change their body.

A transsexual has a psychological identification that doesn't match their body and feels an overwhelming need to change their body and often does.

Finally, there is another useful distinction. Sex and gender are not the same thing. To use a cute oversimplification, sex is what is between your legs, gender is what is between your ears. These two things are not always in sync, nor do they need to be. This also alters the use of the words male and female (which are invariably used to describe sex) and man and woman (which are used to describe gender).

[Uncle Al]

Finally, there is another useful distinction.
Sex and gender are not the same thing. To use a cute oversimplification,
sex is what is between your legs, gender is what is between your ears.
These two things are not always in sync, nor do they need to be. This also alters
the use of the words male and female (which are invariably used to describe sex)
and man and woman (which are used to describe gender).

Well put Alex!
This is one of the best descriptions of the difference between Sex and Gender
that I've ever read

Again, Well Put Alex

Uncle Al
Duncanville, TX

[Departed Member]

Bri recently posted that he has been wearing capris. Now in this paragraph Merlin posted it would seem that Bri and myself fall into this fourth category, along with others here......What was meant by the paragraph here, who exactly was the poster refering to.

With all due respect, I think you need to refer to the overall topic, viz., "Transvestism". If you recall, I was attempting to illustrate that tranvestism (in particular, of the kind illustrated by Ziggy) does not necessarily require to wear a skirt (or dress), as part of the 'outfit', 'uniform', or whatever. It is totally incidental to their approach to indulging in their personal 'fetish'. My reference, then, to, "Away from the seaside environs, they may even wear (usu. embroidered) 'capris' (rather than skirts)!!!!", was quite clear. Said garments, as part of a femme outfit, show that this is the case. I could equally have said, "embroidered denim skirts", as an illustration, but that wouldn't have emphasised the fact that skirt-wearing is not a prerequisite of a transvestite, even amongst the, shall we say, 'aggressive' fraternity. As for the dreaded 'capris', these are now being marketed as "cropped tr*users" locally (and sold off for £4), in a bid (presumably) to get rid of the hideous things (although I'm sure that there'll be plenty on sale at Skegness through the summer - to both genders, equally!). I would ask, again with utmost respect, do you, in fact, consider yourself 'tranvest' (or 'femme', even?) wearing such an item of clothing, which certainly sits fairly and squarely in the "unisex box"?

[Uncle Al]

I just received a catalog from Undergear. They have a section
for 'outer' wear. They are promoting the 'Brandon Capri' for summer
use at the lake, sea shore or any other relaxed occasion.

The only 'clams' being dug are the 'clams' from your wallet!

I have 3 words for these 'p**ts'---No Thank You!

Uncle Al
Duncanville, TX

[ziggy_encaoua]

Thorough a good acquaintance I was asked to code a new site for an individual. I was offered cash to do it & though I’ve no problems with pornography, I said no because I wasn’t prepared to promote transvestitism.

This has to be irony of ironies

The individual I mentioned above is coming to live with me

They've hit rock bottom & well if I'd not stepped in they'd be destitute

So yes Ziggy is too live with a tranny

[Departed Member]

So yes Ziggy is too live with a tranny

Any chance of 'converting' them, while they're with you?

[Since1982]

I have some input nearly all the people here have no access to. As I was a member of all 3 sites that it took to get to SkirtCafe I remember a pictures section on the site when it was Tom's Cafe where at least 10 of the members had posted pictures of themselves wearing either skirts or kilts with their 5 to 15 year old sons with them in the pics. The boys were all dressed just like their old man was. A junior fashion parade, dad in tartan kilt, same for son, dad in denim skirt, same for son, dad in utilikilt, same for son, daughter and wife. It was all fun and great times with lots of meetings in various cities that I really miss here.

3 sites.. Tom's Cafe run by Tom Manuel, the creator and originator of this wonderful idea.
Tom's Cafe run by Noodles after Tom's death, name changed to SkirtCafe after Bob took over.
Tom's Cafe taken over by Bob and renamed SkirtCafe when Noodles was going to shut the site down.

So Bob's statement about 18 or over was spot on.

[ziggy_encaoua]

So yes Ziggy is too live with a tranny

Any chance of 'converting' them, while they're with you?

Probably not

At least they're honest & admit its a fetish

However they aren't coming to stay with it being as my landlord wasn't keen on the idea (nothing with them being a tranny)