Depressing article in UK press!

General discussion of skirt and kilt-based fashion for men, and stuff that goes with skirts and kilts.
User avatar
AMM
Member Extraordinaire
Posts: 841
Joined: Tue Feb 28, 2006 4:01 pm
Location: Thanks for all the fish!

Post by AMM »

If nothing else, I'm beginning to learn that men and women communicate in vastly different ways
I've never noticed this, especially not about Sapphire (at least in her posts here.) They seem about as clear and straightforward as my posts. (Not a high standard, I grant you.)

What I've noticed is that it's "normal" for what women say in mixed-gender groups to be ignored, so normal and pervasive that neither the men nor the women are aware of it. (Although just about every researcher who studies a videotape of a discussion in a mixed-gender group sees it.) This includes classrooms, which is why it's one of the big arguments for women-only schools.

And it's "normal" for people (both men & women) to look at women as if women existed for men's enjoyment and convenience (we've had millenia of practice in this), so normal and pervasive that (except for a few malcontents :( ) neither women nor men are aware of it. Well, some women are aware of it, but then the previous paragraph applies.

The buzzword for this is "privilege", and it doesn't just apply to gender relations. (I think it originated in the study of racism, or maybe even colonialism.)
Sasquatch
Member Extraordinaire
Posts: 486
Joined: Wed Jan 03, 2007 3:18 am
Location: North Carolina coast

Post by Sasquatch »

AMM wrote:
I would remind you that you are talking to a bunch of Y chromosomes here. We don't process information very well for emotional feedback.
Well, I've got a Y chromosome (it's in one of these pockets here, lemme look), and I've learned to understand this stuff, and, as lots of people who know me can tell you, I'm not the sharpest knife in the drawer. You might get away with this excuse the first or second time, but at some point, you gotta "be a man" and face up to the challenge.

It does take time and effort; sort of like learning French.
I won't pretend to have your profound expertise in Feminism, and I don't speak a word of French. But, then, I wouldn't expect a Frenchman to understand me, either.
sasq
Cat on a tin roof, dogs in a pile,
Nothin' left to do but smile, smile, smile!

Hunter/Garcia
User avatar
sapphire
Member Extraordinaire
Posts: 1308
Joined: Thu Aug 16, 2007 5:42 pm
Location: New England

Post by sapphire »

AMM,
Once again, THANK YOU!

There is a lot to say on this issue, but I've been at a seminar all day and, to quote Men in Black II, my "brain needs to reboot".

I will say, however, that as a woman in a man's career (computer industry) there have been many times that I have been the only woman in the room, the only one who really understood the problem, the solution and the conceptual basis for that solution and have been verbally "raped" by the men.

I've learned that being nice can get you "killed" in industry and women of my age were taught to be nice. Sometimes one has to be prickly or downright obnoxious and/or loud.

Even today, after 30 years in the computer industry, retired from a professorship, 3 college degrees, I STILL get ignored when I try to voice my opinion regarding computers in a social setting. I still get treated as an ornament.

I try to be nice here, but sometimes y'all need a smack upside the head.
Moderation is for monks. To enjoy life, take big bites.
-------Lazarus Long
User avatar
Uncle Al
Moderator
Posts: 4256
Joined: Tue Oct 21, 2003 10:07 pm
Location: Duncanville, TX USA

Post by Uncle Al »

sapphire wrote:AMM,
Once again, THANK YOU!

There is a lot to say on this issue, but I've been at a seminar all day and, to quote
Men in Black II, my "brain needs to reboot".
* * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * *
I try to be nice here, but sometimes y'all need a smack upside the head.
Sapphire-
Way To Go, Girl :!:
I love your sense of humor! :)
Now-Since a seminar can be a real 'pain-in-the-chair', get a tall
glass filled with your favorite beverage, put on some nice soft music,
go sit in the big chair next to the roaring fireplace, put your feet
up and relax. You deserve it!
( Especially after putting up with this 'can of mixed nuts'! )

Uncle Al - - aka 'Dr. Quack' :D
Duncanville, TX
Kilted Organist/Musician
Grand Musician of the Grand Lodge, I.O.O.F. of Texas 2008-2025
When asked 'Why the Kilt?'
I respond-The why is F.T.H.O.I. (For The H--- Of It)
iain
Member Extraordinaire
Posts: 468
Joined: Sun Dec 21, 2003 6:29 pm
Location: UK
Contact:

Post by iain »

To be honest, I rather liked the way she put all her points in that original article. She'd had a bit of a bad experience at 14, and she could see that skirts rendered the wearer open to some slighting from aggressive males.

In that context, who can blame her for wanting to regain some security and equality? It seems to me that people like change and they like to feel in control of their options, and this is completely independent of any logical pros and cons.

A girl I know told me something interesting on the weekend. She had been dead set against something going on in her family in the last couple of weeks but now that the event was inevitable, she went along with it and even encouraged it. When I remarked how drastically she'd changed her attitude, she replied that when faced with an unchangeable situation, she simply changed her thinking in order to accomodate it.

If all men were expected to wear skirts from an early age I have no doubt one of them would eventually write an article exactly like this one! She was very even handed and not rabidly foaming at the mouth like some journalists! I'm only jealous we don't have a forum as good as a daily broadsheet to write well mannered articles about our own viewpoint.
The only thing man cannot endure is meaninglessness.
User avatar
sapphire
Member Extraordinaire
Posts: 1308
Joined: Thu Aug 16, 2007 5:42 pm
Location: New England

Post by sapphire »

Hi Uncle Al,
This seminar was increadibly invigorating and one of my favorite subjects: cats! Specifically it was about saving lives - reducing euthanasia in shelters and humanely managing feral/free roaming feline colonies.

Now, this may be a big yawn for all of you, but its one of my passions.

I came away so pumped! To put crudely, but colorfully, my feeling was : Holy Mother of Pearl! I am well and truly gobsmacked.
Moderation is for monks. To enjoy life, take big bites.
-------Lazarus Long
User avatar
sapphire
Member Extraordinaire
Posts: 1308
Joined: Thu Aug 16, 2007 5:42 pm
Location: New England

Post by sapphire »

Iain wrote
If all men were expected to wear skirts from an early age I have no doubt one of them would eventually write an article exactly like this one
Actually, the men in this forum post the same thing, but from a different perspective.

From an early age you have been forced to wear trousers. Now you are expressing your rejection of being forced into only one form of clothing choice.
Moderation is for monks. To enjoy life, take big bites.
-------Lazarus Long
iain
Member Extraordinaire
Posts: 468
Joined: Sun Dec 21, 2003 6:29 pm
Location: UK
Contact:

Post by iain »

Yes, for sure, that's what I mean. I meant, the person who found the article found it discouraging. But it doesn't have any significance that the writer was disdaining skirts. It only shows all people eventually want change, or freedom from whatever they feel has been a limiting factor in their lives.

It's just a perspective; one couple breaks up hating each other and someone else comes along and loves a person who was so hated before! How can that be possible if we're dealing in absolutes? We're not.. everything is just opinion.

I'm glad she wrote that article because it shows there is always room for change and that everyone embraces it. The article is really about quietly embracing personal freedom, so it quite eloquently supports everything we do.
The only thing man cannot endure is meaninglessness.
User avatar
sapphire
Member Extraordinaire
Posts: 1308
Joined: Thu Aug 16, 2007 5:42 pm
Location: New England

Post by sapphire »

Amen! Well said!
Moderation is for monks. To enjoy life, take big bites.
-------Lazarus Long
User avatar
AMM
Member Extraordinaire
Posts: 841
Joined: Tue Feb 28, 2006 4:01 pm
Location: Thanks for all the fish!

Post by AMM »

I've given myself a day or two to calm down, and have a few after-thoughts:

1. This is about what bothers me. Sapphire, and anybody else, can presumably speak for themselves.

2. I see stuff here and elsewhere that comes across to me as sexist all the time, and I never stop noticing it. I've been noticing all my life the way people treat whole segments of the human race as less than human, either because they've always done so and never thought about it, or because they just want to and know they can get away with it, but it's still like a little electric shock each time. And it alienates me a little each time.

It's like when I was growing up, and I'd hear the "n" word (the epithet used in the USA for black people.) Every time someone says it in a crowd, it jumps out at you, no matter what the context. You hear mumble mumble mumble mumble N----R mumble mumble. And I can't help thinking in a certain way about the person who says it, and the people who are listening and smiling and don't say anything, and the place that they hang out and feel comfortable enough to say it.

3. I've vowed a number of times to speak up when I see it, but it's hard -- you have to be willing to be seen as a professional pain in the you-know-what and to be willing to actually look at how much it bugs you, which is not fun. And it takes a lot of time and energy and focus to respond coherently, and most of the time, I don't have it.
Peter v
Member Extraordinaire
Posts: 916
Joined: Fri Sep 21, 2007 8:42 pm
Location: The Netherlands

Post by Peter v »

AMM wrote:I've given myself a day or two to calm down, and have a few after-thoughts:

1. This is about what bothers me. Sapphire, and anybody else, can presumably speak for themselves.

2. I see stuff here and elsewhere that comes across to me as sexist all the time, and I never stop noticing it. I've been noticing all my life the way people treat whole segments of the human race as less than human, either because they've always done so and never thought about it, or because they just want to and know they can get away with it, but it's still like a little electric shock each time. And it alienates me a little each time.

It's like when I was growing up, and I'd hear the "n" word (the epithet used in the USA for black people.) Every time someone says it in a crowd, it jumps out at you, no matter what the context. You hear mumble mumble mumble mumble N----R mumble mumble. And I can't help thinking in a certain way about the person who says it, and the people who are listening and smiling and don't say anything, and the place that they hang out and feel comfortable enough to say it.

3. I've vowed a number of times to speak up when I see it, but it's hard -- you have to be willing to be seen as a professional pain in the you-know-what and to be willing to actually look at how much it bugs you, which is not fun. And it takes a lot of time and energy and focus to respond coherently, and most of the time, I don't have it.




"3. I've vowed a number of times to speak up when I see it, but it's hard -- you have to be willing to be seen as a professional pain in the you-know-what and to be willing to actually look at how much it bugs you, which is not fun. And it takes a lot of time and energy and focus to respond coherently, and most of the time, I don't have it."

This expresses the problem faced by many, and most don't dare take it up.

It is a heavy choice to make, to be "the pain in the ..." Or "the unpopular person" ( Popular with the people who don't tell anyone for fear of also being frouwned upon ) only because you are prepared to be just that by bringing up such things as anti social behaviour etc.

I know from first hand, because I brought up a anti social behaviour at work, and was literally hated, by some, because of it. So be it. I made the sacrifice. Better that than be silenced by the "wrong" do-ers. One good thing about it is that once you are the black sheep, you don't get blacker, any other issues can also be brought to attention, without any change in your situation. If you are already disliked by some, the culprits, for speaking your mind, rightjously, that just stays the same.

It is the fear of becomming a black sheep that may prevent you from doing / sayng what you feel is right. It is just the price you have to pay. And don't forget, to many people you are the hero, being one of the very few who dare take that step, while many others think the same as you do but keep wisely silent.

That is in some way like wearing a skirt in public. There may be some out there who frown on you, only some, but who cares? To give in to fear of the few who may not follow your way of thinking is really no real option.

PS only when there is a real threat, get the he.. out of there.... no skirt is worth that, nothing is worth that.

In the off chance that even collegues may not accept you in a skirt, it is their loss, you will find other real friends, even though they may do their daarndest to try to make you look the fool, or whatever, they are then the real fools, and it is your victory. You would in practice be a fool or whatever if you did not wear your skirt, as that is what you want to do.

Peter v.
A man is the same man in a pair of pants or a skirt. It is only the way people look at him that makes the difference.
ChrisM
Member Extraordinaire
Posts: 468
Joined: Thu Mar 18, 2004 12:49 am
Location: Vancouver, British Columbia, Canada

AMM

Post by ChrisM »

AMM, if you ever find me speaking disrespectfully of any segment of society, I do hereby invite you to (gently and politely please) bring it to my attention and demand my correction of the offending remark.

Chris M.
Departed Member

Post by Departed Member »

AMM wrote: If there are so many guys who respect women, where were they when someone posted something along the lines of "the reason young women are all wearing pants is just because of peer pressure"? Or the responses to the posts blaming stuff on "Feminists"? (I did post an objection when someone griped about "feminazis" -- for the second time. But I was the only one.)
I feel I have to say, I am so very fortunate not to live in a similar world to the one you appear to find so much fault with. Being British, I have come to realise the advantages we have had growing up as part of an essentially matriachal society. Which is why we seem to have such disparate views? I firmly believe, that women (in the present day) are as likely to suffer from 'tr*user tyranny' as men. My observation is based, not just on what I see or read, but on comments from women, too. If you can bring yourself to do so, read some women's magazines to see the underlying pressures that increasingly being forced on women - not just about clothing, either.

It would appear to me, from the general thrust of your posts, that you have little contact with the 'female world'. Why do I say that? Because you would understand the difference between a feminist' and a 'feminazi'. I'll have to hold my hands up here, and admit some of my closest friends could be classed as 'feminists'. Some struggle to live up to an archetypal image (see the magazines!) - which they feel they have to. And yes, it does involve wearing jeans and looking generally scruffy! My GP, on the other hand, is also a strong feminist who used to believe in 'tr*usering' as an adjunct to the 'cause'. Until she tried to set about trying to prove women who adopt the tr*user weren't more likely to develop the "Big C". It must be a good three years since I've seen here in anything other than skirt or dress. If you really want to find out about the 'feminazi' element, then you would be well advised to ask women who have come up against them! We had a couple at my last job. Blokes were petrified of speaking up against them, for fear of being labelled 'sexist'. They terrified the women, too. So why did they (the women, that is) come to me for help to stop the bullying? (For that is the essence of the 'feminazi'). Because I take bullying more seriously than most. And I don't care whether they are man/woman, black/white or christian/muslim.

If you find the term, 'feminazi', offensive, then I would ask you to pause a while, and see if, actually, you don't know of one or two, yourself. But please, open your mind to the fact that 'feminist's and 'feminazi's have very different agendas.
Peter v
Member Extraordinaire
Posts: 916
Joined: Fri Sep 21, 2007 8:42 pm
Location: The Netherlands

Re: AMM

Post by Peter v »

ChrisM wrote:AMM, if you ever find me speaking disrespectfully of any segment of society, I do hereby invite you to (gently and politely please) bring it to my attention and demand my correction of the offending remark.

Chris M.
Chris, well said, I second that, and I would hope that your above remark counts for us all here on the forum. :D

I too have no problem with being rightly corrected if i have unknowingly offended or been disrespectful in any way.

Peter v
A man is the same man in a pair of pants or a skirt. It is only the way people look at him that makes the difference.
User avatar
Pythos
Member Extraordinaire
Posts: 626
Joined: Fri Aug 31, 2007 12:38 pm
Location: USA west coast

Post by Pythos »

I think what I find sad about the article is the fact this woman at the age of 14 allowed a stupid little kid's insult to drive her to hide her legs (sausage legs makes no bloody sense to me). Later in the article she even states the critic was wrong about her legs.

So this little critique, which was most likely one of jealousy led this girl to start wearing pants and shirking skirts.

If she wants to wear skirts, good for her. I like the history of women wearing pants, and still wonder why there is no equivellant for men.

The little golf challenge should have been "if I lose I come to work every now and then dressed like a woman, If I win, you come every now and then wearing a dress or skirt." This would probably have lead to the start of men getting the choice to wear skirts.
Post Reply