Denim makes you look young!

[iain]

It's unfortunately the case that men think like men and women think like women and most people can't swap between the two at will.

Maybe one of the attractive features in the first part of a relationship is that the partner is indeed different and thinks differently. As the relationship progresses and the couple adopt shared goals and try to produce shared strategies for coping, this might become more of a problem.

I'm sure one of the interesting things for any woman joining a predomiantly male forum is exactly because it is predominantly male! Hopefully the honeymoon will go on for a while longer though because without women's viewpoints in here, it can soon start to resemble a room full of mirrors!

[Milfmog]

Sapphire,

I've re-read this two or three times this morning and really don't see where you're coming from.

I guess it was my reply that started the ball rolling but, and this may come a a surprise to you, I married my wife because I loved her and twenty years later that is still true. We regularly poke gentle fun at one another both in private and in company. It's simply a part of our relationship; we have a shared humour and love each other all the more for it.

If you found the posts above offensive, then I offer my apologies but they are a reflection of who I am, just as choosing to dress for my comfort is.

Have fun,


Ian.

PS My wife just read this over my shoulder and then went back trough the thread. Her response: (Said with a big grin) "Trust you to say that... oh and the dog would get all your meals..."

[Milfmog]

Sapphire,

I've just realised that all the replies prior to yours were from the UK, apart from Peter (Netherlands). Perhaps this is a case of two countries divided by a common language... humour often does not translate between cultures very well.

Please let me assure you that no disrespect or offence was intended by any of those posts.

Have fun,


Ian.

[beverlonian]

Having read this thread several times, I'm still at a loss as to what is offensive!

Can someone enlighten me?

[Emerald Witch]

The subject of a woman's beauty (and her percieved age is very much linked to her percieved beauty) is a question of serious importance to most women. Most women have it ingrained in their minds that their value and their importance to their husbands is directly related to their youth, beauty and overall sexiness. A real fear for many women is that if she isn't desirable enough, then she might be cast aside like an old car for a newer model.

To hear men joking, even lightly, about such matters can be unsettling. We want to be reassured that we are absolutely desirable, not that we are a mother-figure who is deservedly mistaken to be twenty years senior to our husbands just because we aren't wearing a skirt.

It may be true that no man here had a thought in his mind of bashing any lady at all in his joking about the situation. But when fears are raised and then the defense given is that "that's the way we've always done it", well, the fears aren't allayed. The fears are based on consequenses which have always happened.

So the ante gets upped a bit and we're just shy of name-calling, all because of undercurrents and unspoken world-views and contexts which are assumed to be shared by all, but which probably most of the posters here are at a bit of a loss to understand were brought into the conversation all of a sudden.

I'm pretty sure Diana doesn't really think this board is full of woman-haters. It's just that sometimes in the struggle for respect and equality it is difficult to communicate across the longstanding language barriers, as exemplified in the bafflement of the men who stated "we were just joking" and "it was just locker-room humor". I sympathize with the confusion they must feel, almost like they themselves had been attacked out of the blue, when they had meant no harm.

That's the real trouble. When everyone starts defending themselves too loudly, and crying "INNOCENT!", and fingers start pointing back at the lady who first raised a commotion, then it sends the message that women aren't supposed to raise a commotion. And then when things really ARE bad (rape, sexual harrassment, etc.) people don't have the skills to communicate clearly about what's going on. Women tend to be pushed down, silenced, told not to raise a commotion.

It's difficult to change the pattern. Good people perpetuate it unknowingly, just because they don't know another way. It all has to do with learning better communication skills. God knows I'm no expert, but I could see the way this conversation was going, and I just thought I'd shine a light before it got any worse. I hope I helped.

[cessna152towser]

No offence against any women intended by my original post, simply pointing out that I was perceived to be a generation younger than my wife when I was wearing a denim kilt. It was her decision that she gradually stopped wearing skirts in favour of trousers and her who first encouraged me to get a kilt - until I was almost forty I wouldn't have been seen dead in a kilt or unbifurcated garment - and even then I only wore it as costume for Scottish Country Dancing until five years ago a leg injury forced me to wear a kilt to work as I was physically unable to get into trousers while I was on crutches. I thought I would be an object of ridicule but instead the kilt was so well received by colleagues and the public and so much more comfortable that I began to buy more kilts and to wear them almost daily. My wife encourages me to wear kilts, for which I am very fortunate.

[Departed Member]

For some time there has been a subtle undercurrent of misogyny in this forum. I don't like it.

If this is to be a "wench bashing" forum, don't expect much support.

Men must be men nd they are absolutely entitled to whatever they want whenever they want in any way they want Adeiu

I'm sorry, sapphire, but I find your recent comments extremely offensive. Whereas you may well have had problems in your past, they were not brought upon by anyone on this forum. Most folk here are only too well aware that we need, and welcome, support from the distaff side.

Comments such as the one which prompted this thread are not as uncommon as one might imagine - its a fact of life that most women do not 'look good', aesthetically speaking, in tr*users. That's not just 'my opinion', but I've even heard ladies say so, too! For whatever reason, they seem to make young women appear younger, but paradoxically, middle aged ladies look older! My sister-in-law is in this 'boat'. She gets annoyed when folk assume her son is her grandson. It doesn't help that she smokes heavily - that alone adds 10 years to a 40 year old. No-one is 'knocking' or putting down women with such observations - they are just that - observations.

[Unionkilts Richard]

Hi All

Well i dont know what to say now after all that, i was happy to see the Kilt made you look younger, i was going to make a whity comment about it, however i am still trying to see what went wrong.
Saphire if you have been offended i am sure it was not intentional in any way nor was it an attack against women that i could see.

in any case i am sure the guys concerned meant no offence at all.

Please come back, i for one do respect the ladies side of comments and need you gals to keep us all in line

Richard

[Peter v]

This unfortunate apparent communication problem has brought something very positive with it, as every one can read, the forum active members, all respond sensitively, and are willing to learn from this. This also shows what soort of people are active in this forum, not all rough disrespectful sensation seekers, but people you would ask in to your house. We must constantly learn and better ourselves. Understanding others is as or even more important than understanding just ourselves.

The lerarning process helps greatly to put things in their correct perspective.

Also age and looks. Now, men in skirts, and especially frestylers, must get their looks right, or fall beside the wayside completely. As more often than not skirt wearers are 40 plussers, we may be still in our prime, but going on. That's normal, but when wearing a skirt, you do attract extra attention, and I think that although it may cost more energy to get it right, thinking more about men doing more than bog standard Utilikilts, more towards freestyling, It can give you that extra lease of life. I am 52 myself, getting pretty thin on top, but I get very nice compliments, from many women of all ages I meet, mostly in shops. (I don't go out.) So I must be doing something good. Age is an issue, for men. And I think men wearing skirts tend to have a more understanding vieuw of women, because they tred on their territory, and have to learn so much from them.

Comming back to the women, yes, I do understand the anxiety, that not only is it desirable to keep on looking good as the years come, but the understanding that many males tend to have a visual need for satisfaction, which plays a big roll in broken marriages certainly can make women also going on in age, as we also are, get nervous when suggestions are made that they are older than they in fact are. No one needs to hear that, and women are the most vulnerable in that. I believe there are men here that through wanting to wear skirts at this time, are also showing that they kan open themselves up more to emotions, because skirt wearing men is more than skirts alone, it is also opening your self up to emotions and showing them.

I also think that women don't HAVE TO look hot, or womanly all the time, that too is a mis pretence, which may come from men, and might just be an anxiety. Women, being people, like we are people, don't have to be attractive ( as in reproduction attractive ) all the time. It is a stark contrast between women dressed to kill or women dressed as not to be seen, just as another person, in clothes doing things with no intention to attract attention. We men should know that, we do that most of our lives, only doing our best for going out and special occasions. When women are dressed "casually"they of course still want to be desired, just like any healthy PERSON, but mentally, not only physically. That's where men tend to shoot short, having mostly a more visual sense.

As is often the case, men comming from Mars and women from Venus, apparently made so by our creator, we don't always speak the same language and in that men (and sometimes women) can be harsh in the way they handle sensitive things.

This doesnt mean that you can't have any jokes or self spot. Knowing who said it is often very important. Written words from unknown, unseen people, from other cultures are sometimes very hard to be seen in their right context and can be mis interpretated.

Incidents will continue to happen, it's the way you handle it atferwards that you show what you're really made of.

I would nearly say you'd nearly want to start an argument just to enjoy the making up afterwards. That, all things going well, being very personal, emotional, and really listening intimately (not physical intimacy) to each other, with complet respect.

What's this got to do with skirt wearing? I believe a lot. It's both physicaly and mentally challenging as it is enjoyable. Through it you can get more awareness of the world, the people around you.

Is this a paradox? Life stinks, but it is the smell of life that makes you want to live.

Peter v

[sapphire]

I apologize for letting my Latin side get the better of me.

What I overreacted to was the apparent lack of respect in making fun of of your spouses in an international forum. I have seen far too many relationships fall apart from this "innocent" banter. It may be just a small sign of disrespect, but it is still disrespect.

We should be talking about men's skirted fashion, not taking pokes at our spouses.

No, I'm not concerned about someone thinking that CR is younger than me. He is. He's half a generation younger. I'd be concerned if anyone thought he was older than I.

[Peter v]

To Sapphire,

Understood.
Peter v.

[AMM]

When I look at the original post and the first couple of responses, I actually didn't see any "making fun of" anyone, except maybe of the OP (original poster). (I'm afraid the later responses quickly exceeded my limited ability to decode human interactions, especially on-line ones.)

The original situation is that the OP got a compliment at his wife's expense, so to speak. None of us know the OP's relationship well enough to predict how she would react, although I'm guessing she wasn't very upset, since he posted it and didn't mention her reaction.

I know when I read it, I immediately had the reaction, maybe she'd be a little resentful of him because in complimenting him, the saleslady was implying she was old, which is supposed to be insulting. Now, if I were in that situation (assuming she wasn't visibly upset), I wouldn't want to speak directly to the (possible) resentment, because it would suggest I would expect her to act irrationally, which is insulting. I wouldn't want to just leave it, because unaddressed resentments are like a poison in a relationship, and "irrational" ones are the worst.

Instead, I'd want a way to express that I sympathise with her that doesn't require her to admit to having the feeling at all. A little revenge fantasy that we could both dismiss as a joke is one way to do it. Sort of like, "if we were a stereotypical couple this is the sort of silly thing we would do." She could spin it out for a while if she wanted a little gratification.

So I read the responses (at least the first few) as coming from this recognition. In fact, I think that among guys, this kind of "joking" also serves as a subtle way of reminding one another that in such a situation, some relationship-mending might be needed. Again, by making it as a joke, you allow messages to get sent without anyone having to overtly own up to anything. Actually pretty respectful of all concerned, I would say.

[AndrewH]

One of the biggest drawbacks of a written forum like this is that there is no "tone of voice" to hear or body language to see.

I try never to treat a woman with disrespect - but there are some women with whom I have a relationship in which we banter with absolutely no ill-feeling on either side. These relationships have lasted decades, and are stringer now than before because we work at keeping those relationships solid.

This is especially true of my relationship with my wife; we have both been married before, and we have both suffered from abusive spouses.

I would not make any comment here about women that I would not make about and in front of my wife. Gentle humour does not necessarily break down relationships.

I am so sorry that Sapphire has had terrible experiences in her life and I do hope that, as I have, she can find loving relationships so that good memories can start to override the bad.

[Peter v]

I have already said much, but just this, the real crunch is that the woman involved, unwillingly is debet to this happening. She must have known that she was not at her best in those clothes, ( And does not have to be at her best, visually, all the time!) and her man was apparently dresed well. What you don'expect is misjudged observation from another person thinking that the woman was older than she actually was. The shop helper should have said something else, but done is done.

This is a hilarius situation, you (husband and wife) knowing it not to be true, and it actually being a compliment as to the way the man was dressed, possibly with the help and advice from his wife.

When told and shared with others, it is agreed upon with respect, that it was a hilarius situation. But at no time is there any disrespect in the answers. The answers are usually placed in a recognisable way. This may look at first disrespectful, but there is also the difference of how you look at the answers. That's the short comming of any forum, even with emotion icons. There is no body language or voice intonations.

Hapily we have been able to get a real personal feeling from our members because of the small misunderstanding. So even though it was at first precarious, all this has had a positive ending.

Peter v.

[AMM]

I've been looking over these posts, and I see another (communication) issue.

One thing to keep in mind is that different cultures differ as to what it's OK to joke about. I'll speak about the USA, because that's what I'm familiar with.

In the US, for instance, "race" (mainly African-American vs. "white") is too touchy a subject to joke about in most social situations, due to centuries of often well-founded distrust. It's not enough to make sure that the person you are joking about doesn't mind it; you have to make sure that anyone who might hear it or hear of it will take your joke as you meant it. People who come to the USA from countries where race is not such an issue sometimes get into trouble because they say what they think without realizing what might get misinterpreted.

Discussion and joking about women's appearance, apparent age, dress, etc., is almost this touchy in the USA. There are simply too many knuckle-dragging males who are obnoxiously public with their belief that women's only excuse for existing is to serve their pleasure. I won't list all the offensive things they do, but humiliating and disparaging comments and "jokes" about women's bodies, clothing, age, and sexual desirability are certainly on the list. And the Internet is full of these jerks. There are web forums and discussion groups, not to mention real-life workplaces, where it is so bad that (almost) no women will go there.

So any comment that might be interpreted as saying that a woman looks ridiculous, or ugly, or old, or badly dressed, or undesirable have a real potential for making you look like one of these knuckle-draggers to a lot of people in the USA (and maybe elsewhere.)

Comments making fun of men are probably safe, partly because there aren't so many knuckle-dragging females around and partly because we're mostly men here.