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[WSmac]

Hmmm, I wonder if Bob's post necessitates a better description of my self to the members here?

Nothing graphic, of course!

At this point in time, my appearance is all guy. Nothing has been changed since what I was given at birth.

I also do not dress in women's garb along with breast forms & wig to try and pass as a woman. I am me. Any body changes I wish to have are what I have always felt were naturally due me. Can't explain it, it's just what has always been in my head.

I believe even if I go 'all the way' and have GRS, that does not make me a woman, as in a Genetic Girl (GG in Trans parlance). I'm just aligning my body with my brain.

Again, our society has no words to describe me equal to those that describe you-who-are-socially normal.

With all that, I feel I fit in here also because of my general appearance and my desire to wear any clothing I find comfortable. Skirts are not feminizing to me, they are just comfortable.
I also believe men... all men of any variation... should try on a skirt at least once in their life without the dreadful feeling of 'doing something wrong'.
Their choice of skirt, their choice of time & place.

I'm floored at Emerald's taste in men. I have never heard another woman be so interested in men wearing skirts no matter the kind (of skirt, that is ).
She gets HIGH MARKS from me! That's for sure!
even though she doesn't love me

[ChrisM]

Emerald Witch, I would just like to chime in and say that I really appreciate hearing that you like skirt-wearing blokes. It has been a long time since I was attractive to women, being 49 years old!

So: THANKS for the mere fact of liking us!

Chris

(Who wears skirts and nail polish)

[Bob]

WSmac... thank you for being so open with us. I think that you are sharing things that are more common on this board than many of us would like to admit.

My hope is that SkirtCafe will provide an alternative to both the in-the-closet transvestite community, as well as the full-hormones-SRS transgender community. Both become almost obsessed with "passing" at times, which drains a lot of energy from the more important issues of identity. Some members of SkirtCafe have felt very put off in these communities when they were derided for questioning the Gospel of Passing.

Going further, the transgender community often puts a lot of emphasis on hormones and SRS. While this treatment has obviously saved lives, I wonder sometimes whehter it's being passed around like candy these days to people who shouldn't have it. There seems to be this peer pressure within the transgender community that aspires to going on hormones and eventually dropping $25K on SRS. And somewhat tragically, there is now a small but growing number of SRS recipients who regret it.

No medical procedure should be undertaken unless it is necessary. If even one guy who is considering SRS comes to SkirtCafe, and then decides he'd rather just be a guy who likes to wear skirts and nail polish, then I believe that SkirtCafe has been a success. He can always go back to SRS later if he feels it's appropriate, and I don't think there's anything wrong with that.

I also consider SkirtCafe to be a success for ex-transvestites who are sick and tired of the play-acting come here and decide to keep their clothes but throw out the wig and leave the closet and come out to their friends as who they really are. We definitely have ex-transvestites here.

Either way... at SkirtCafe, we recognize a guy can wear a skirt and still be a guy and have people call him "Joe" and wear a beard (or not) if he wants. It's about showing the world there are more options than we previously thought. SkirtCafe is not for everyone, but then again, nothing is.

[SkirtedViking]

Women are granted the right to wear in terms of clothing and shoes masculine,feminine,mixed and so on apparel and no one is saying that they are transgendered,or lesbians or whatever.A tomboy is not a lesbian and is wearing and behaving in complete men's manner.So why do you imply that a freestyler is someone that has to do with transvestism,you people seem to be stuck to the notion that even in skirtwearing a man should be masculine according to society's norms.is this a real freedom?Why isn't so for women-no one expects them to be feminine.You put bounderies again for men.Whatever I wear I will still grow my beard,lift my weights and feel a man and do not want to be a woman,nor I want to pass as such.I just want the same right to wear whatever I please without implications as women do the same freely-this is equality,not tranvestism!So do not imply that a freestler has something to do with putting fake boobs,wigs and etc.i wear heels,skirts,blouses and etc. and is obvious that I am a man and behave as one!Thank you and no offence to anyone!A tomboy does not put fake beard and a packet between the legs and is still a normal woman no matter the appearance of clothes and shoes.

[Emerald Witch]

At this point in time, my appearance is all guy. Nothing has been changed since what I was given at birth.
I'm floored at Emerald's taste in men. I have never heard another woman be so interested in men wearing skirts no matter the kind (of skirt, that is ).
She gets HIGH MARKS from me! That's for sure!
even though she doesn't love me

Please don't cry, WSmac! It'll make me very sad.

I never said you couldn't be loveable, I only said that as a woman who is basically quite straight I am attracted to men with their male anatomy intact. Therefore if a person goes through the surgery to have their anatomy changed to that of a woman, then obviously that makes them a woman, and would not be someone to whom I would be attracted in that way. But we could still be friends.

And don't think that I'm alone in thinking that skirt (or kilt) wearing men are dead sexy! The whole point of me starting this post is that we are a large, but largely unrecognized group! LOTS of women think men are gorgeous in skirts! It's just so unexpected that many of us are thrown by it at first. Some women have years of prejudice to overcome, and may react with a knee-jerk facade of disapproval at first. But many of us underneath do fantasize of many naughty things we might do with our men in sexy skirts...

[WSmac]

Bob, thank you so much for your words.

Sometimes I find it a shame that it was not until my 40's when I was finally able to start an honest critique of what I am. I know who I am and just love that person, it's the what that always confounded me.

I credit two online places with helping me get to where I am in such a short time...
http://crossdressers-forum.com/forums/
and
http://www.skirtcafe.org

One place introduced me to a group of people who shared similar life stories to mine, and taught me what I am not.
The other introduced me to an open-minded community where I could be free to express myself and learn from the expressions of the other members.
Tom's...er... SkirtCafe is, of course, the latter. THANKS TO ALL!

...why do you imply that a freestyler is someone that has to do with transvestism...

I'm curious who you are addressing your post to?
I know it isn't me since I haven't used the term 'freestyler' around here.

I didn't see anywhere in Bob's last post where he mentioned the same.
I thought he did a good job of laying out his goals and hopes with this website.
To the point and fair-minded, I'd say.

I have to admit that perhaps I have a much more 'laid-back' attitude than some folks here and in the Trans-community.
I find I am not so critical when people use labels in a differing manner than I would.
Generally speaking, more than a few of these terms... such as freestyler... seem to still be quite fluid in their meaning relative to the person or group using it.

With this fluidity in definition, there is bound to be some disagreement about any label's usage.
I try to understand where the particular poster is coming from before I correct them on their use of a particular word.
In fact, and I hope I am remembering correctly , I usually don't correct folks on their use of terms/labels unless I know for sure there is a set definition in common use such as a commonly referred to dictionary.

This is why in some of my posts, you'll find that I give my definition of specific terms so everyone will know where I am coming from.

I think being too tense about labels is what helps 'fan the flames' in debates, especially on the internet.

People will continue to argue that a kilt is NOT a skirt simply because they see the term skirt as being feminine and the other person is using it to describe how material is worn about the body.
They can both continue to argue about who is correct (dictionary vs belief), or accept the place each one is coming from and be happy that they now understand what the other person means when using that term.

Make sense?

In the Trans group I meet with, people are always commenting on how upset they are that some gender-specific term was used incorrectly towards them, or that someone is not being 'trans' enough or conversly is trying to be 'trans' when they are not.
Such is life amongst the humans!

I personally don't care if someone there calls me a guy, or sister, or whatever. I figure it's whatever makes them comfortable enough to socialize with me that counts most. I just have to be happy about myself and understand others will have WAY MORE confusion about me than I do.
I'll do what I can to ease their suffering

[WSmac]

Please don't cry, WSmac! It'll make me very sad.

Awwww, Em, my being sad made you sad and now I'm even sadder...
Thanks for the very nice comments.
I'll take it on your High Authority that I am loveable!
Really, joking aside, thanks for being such a nice, albeit 'naughty' person... see below

But many of us underneath do fantasize of many naughty things we might do with our men in sexy skirts...

You've brought back memories which I am sure some here can relate to strange women or women who are strangers to us, who can't seem to keep from trying to peek under our skirts... and who knows what else is on their diabolical minds

I do believe life around here is going to be enhanced by your appearance and lingering about Emerald!

[crfriend]

So Miss Witch, please don't include the term "trans" in your word. Most of us are not transgender, transsexual or transvestite in any way, although some of us may be genderqueer.

Aw heck. It's just a word modifier meaning, more or less, "to cross", and lots of words in this wonderfully rich language use it. Does one thing of anything remotely kinky when one hears the word "transmission" (crosses, or changes, one form of work to another), "transfer" (to cross, or "move" from one person or place to another), or even "transatlantic" (Hi to our cousins across the briny!)? No, of course not; however, bring in anything related to sexuality and all bets are off (what a lot of prudes! ). I will have to admit that "trans fans" made me immediately, and don't ask me why, think of "trans fats".

WSmac's humourous quip: "homo skirtus adorus" was another one that used roots and modifiers, but comes out to more or less mean "one who loves identical skirts" ("homo" means "same", not "man"). So, quite obviously we have the same prejudices with that modifier that we do with "trans"; after all, we don't get all hot under the collar whilst drinking homogenised milk now do we? (OK, maybe you do if you're lactose intolerant.) The made-up word "homophobia" displays this in spades; taken in grammatical context it means, literally, "fear of the same".

In any case, we need to educate the world that a guy can wear a skirt and still be a guy, without calling his gender or sexual identity into question.

Here it is in a nutshell, and said plainly without "fancy" words. I rather like that -- even as a guy who routinely gets into trouble at work for using "five-dollar" words in Corporate Communications.

[ChrisM]

Surely you mean "sesquipedalian" words.

[crfriend]

Women are granted the right to wear in terms of clothing and shoes masculine,feminine,mixed and so on apparel and no one is saying that they are transgendered,or lesbians or whatever.A tomboy is not a lesbian and is wearing and behaving in complete men's manner.

This is the root of the double-standard that makes the blood boil for so many of us. It's inane, it's corrosive, and it's just plain wrong. It fosters the notion that one sex is "better" than the other and justifies all manner of ridiculous behaviours. It needs to go.

So do not imply that a freestler has something to do with putting fake boobs,wigs and etc.i wear heels,skirts,blouses and etc. and is obvious that I am a man and behave as one!

Methinks you're reading more into this than was actually said. As near as I can tell, the worst of the "bad blood" between the "bravehearts" and the "freestylers" was more about insecurity than about presentation -- and with the perceived level of acceptance that society might confer on kilt-rigs than frilly-skirt-rigs. This does not mean I'm slagging off on frilly skirts (quite the opposite), it means that I see the point of view, although I do not completely agree with it.

A tomboy does not put fake beard and a packet between the legs and is still a normal woman no matter the appearance of clothes and shoes.

I'm not sure in all cases of that one. I've seen some pretty tough-looking tomboys and I'm fairly sure that they weren't out looking for boyfriends....

[WSmac]

WSmac's humourous quip: "homo skirtus adorus" was another one that used roots and modifiers, but comes out to more or less mean "one who loves identical skirts" ("homo" means "same", not "man").

HAHAHA, CR, you got me on that one! You are absolutely correct about the homo business. Guess that's some of my Texas upbringing showing here. LOL
(I used to say things like Nucular, Simular, etc. until my wife brow-beat me into speaking like a Californian).

[iain]

I think we got away from the topic slightly! We should come up with a name, if we're so creative! How about, FAMIS -- Female Admirer of Men In Skirts

[SkirtedViking]

I'm not sure in all cases of that one. I've seen some pretty tough-looking tomboys and I'm fairly sure that they weren't out looking for boyfriends....[/quote]
Well,most of them as far as I have seen have boyfriends,children and so on-by tomboy I mean a woman that is dressed in man's clothing and shoes-I prefer not to use man's or women's when it comes to objects but now the term has to clarify the issue otherwise it would have atken too many words to explain it.

[WSmac]

I think we got away from the topic slightly! We should come up with a name, if we're so creative! How about, FAMIS -- Female Admirer of Men In Skirts

Nice

So, would that be pronounced like the word... Famous?

Who would have guessed a bunch of men in skirts could make women FAMIS?

This one sorta grows on me... it could become one of the new expressions of the age!

Emerald Witch: "Hello, I'm FAMIS!"
Passerby: "You're famous? Really?" startled look in their eyes.
Emerald Witch: "Yes, of course! A Female Admirer of Men In Skirts!"

Can you imagine if this term took off like when homosexual men started using the word GAY as their monicker?

Hollywood would have to find a new term to describe all those self-indulgent, over-paid 'stars'.

[ChristopherJ]

It should just be FAMOUS - as in

Female
Admirer (of)
Men (who wear)
Outrageous
Unbifurcated
Skirts!