I did find a quote from another website today, this is one high point in a generally negative “men in skirts” thread. The last sentence sums up nicely the differences between “man in skirt”- me, and other males who have gender identity issues.
http://www.thefashionspot.com/forums/f4 ... 55-14.html
Yasmin writes:
^ True, and while "menswear" trends are a bit more common in women's wear than "metro sexual" trends are in men's wear, it's like the same rule applies:
Go ahead and add some other elements of the other gender's cultural territory (eg., males, put on some nail polish, females, slap on a tie) but, if you don't want to be considered in drag, this part is essential, you MUST pair these territory-breaking pieces with something very traditionally "your" gender territory. Ladies, wear sexy makeup (maybe red lips) with your tie (standard men's wear look), and gentlemen, wear masculine/aggressive looking clothing with your nail polish (emo, punk).
If we do not make it clear to the observer that we are intentionally taking from BOTH territories, it's not surprising if the observer concludes we are trying to switch camps. Typically, when a person is decked out in only what the other gender traditionally wears, they really are trying to identify as the other gender.
-- Brandy
Interesting point - others preception
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Skirt Chaser
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Kilted Musician
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Definitely agree with you, QM! It was great meeting you at GG park in August. Say hi to Quiet Man for me!:)Skirt Chaser wrote:Yet, there is a difference between being in drag and perceived that way. I'd like to think anybody can wear anything and it doesn't matter why they are doing it. Of course, my view is completely out of touch with the way the real world works.
Quiet Mouse
--Rick
Something I've only thought about recently is why people like other people to stay the same, and why seeing others changing their status unsettles them so.
Here in England, the class system is widely adhered to, though everyone pretends it isn't. The media, for example, while claiming a progressive and concerned view of the world, fawn over the famous like an infatuated teenager. A personality like Desmond Tutu or Nelson Mandela, working for the benefit of millions of people, is ushered to the back seats on the media bus while the front seats are reserved for the latest tattle about Jodie Marsh's fingernails or Posh Spice's new hat. One hat outweighs the lives of ten million people.
The Brits feel secure that the Queen will stay a Queen and dustmen and gardners will stay dustmen and gardners. If dustmen suddenly become members of parliament, the public will feel unhappy because they no longer can be sure of their own position between the two extremes of influence. Should they be higher, or lower? the east end barrow boy who becomes a millionaire is popular with the public because he deflates the rich by walking among them without the public school education and accent to go with it, but still emphasises the gulf between even the middle class and all the other east end "barrah boys" who remain securely at the other end. He manages to show the faults at both ends of the social scale; had he risen only to their status, it would be upsetting to the middle classes, but shooting past them like a rocket, they can gleefully await an explosion and watch the pieces falling to earth again, reassuring themselves of their own security.
When men start to change the freedom with which they dress, the conservative suit-wearers get antsy and shifty because they no longer can be sure about their own position as thrusting male executives, which a moment ago was not in any doubt. maybe they too will have to wear a skirt? is the man in a skirt more masculine than they, or more feminine? they have to think about something which has long been settled in their mind which is as upsetting as seeing all the neighbours all buy bigger houses: did we miss out? how? where does it leave us?
keeping up with the Joneses applies, I think, to fashion as well, and joe and josephine bloggs are not comfortable with binning the status quo on which they base their own sexuality, and on which they gladly limit their own self expression in the larger interest of their own security. joe thrusting executive gladly limits his wardrobe to dull suits because he feels they lend him power: when the executive next door wears skirts, what does he do now? the game is up, and the emperor was in fact wearing nothing useful at all.
so don't be surprised if some people you work with, especially in the executive world, look the other way and avoid discussing your fashion choices: you've threatened their security, and are much more powerful than you think. they look away out of fear and not genuine disrespect. I've noticed, in a skirt or kilt, that women openly point it out to their men, and to each other, while men often look very thoughtful or even uncomfortable. the women already know what is afoot and they welcome it: their security is not threatened because they are already secure.
this mechanism taken to extremes is, I think, also behind the yobs who make a fuss and shout insults from moving vehicles, which some members here have reported. Should yobbie joe let the skirted man pass without his loud disapproval and comment, the glare of attention might well fall on his own shaky sense of identity and masculinity, and, at least in their mind, throw their whole life into disarray and meaninglessness.
(The media hacks who yell insults and catcalls from the moving vehicle of their newspaper column think in the same way: the difference is they have progressed further despite their own insecurity, thanks to a brighter intelligence and a sly manipulation of others' opinions of them, so have way more to lose than skinhead pete in his ford fiesta with the coffe-tin exhaust pipe, 100 watt speakers, and the foster's 4x in the glove compartment. Media yobbo has not just a souped up tinpot car but a jag, a penthouse, and a £100k income: hence the loud "boos" from the newspapers, which often get reported here).
Here in England, the class system is widely adhered to, though everyone pretends it isn't. The media, for example, while claiming a progressive and concerned view of the world, fawn over the famous like an infatuated teenager. A personality like Desmond Tutu or Nelson Mandela, working for the benefit of millions of people, is ushered to the back seats on the media bus while the front seats are reserved for the latest tattle about Jodie Marsh's fingernails or Posh Spice's new hat. One hat outweighs the lives of ten million people.
The Brits feel secure that the Queen will stay a Queen and dustmen and gardners will stay dustmen and gardners. If dustmen suddenly become members of parliament, the public will feel unhappy because they no longer can be sure of their own position between the two extremes of influence. Should they be higher, or lower? the east end barrow boy who becomes a millionaire is popular with the public because he deflates the rich by walking among them without the public school education and accent to go with it, but still emphasises the gulf between even the middle class and all the other east end "barrah boys" who remain securely at the other end. He manages to show the faults at both ends of the social scale; had he risen only to their status, it would be upsetting to the middle classes, but shooting past them like a rocket, they can gleefully await an explosion and watch the pieces falling to earth again, reassuring themselves of their own security.
When men start to change the freedom with which they dress, the conservative suit-wearers get antsy and shifty because they no longer can be sure about their own position as thrusting male executives, which a moment ago was not in any doubt. maybe they too will have to wear a skirt? is the man in a skirt more masculine than they, or more feminine? they have to think about something which has long been settled in their mind which is as upsetting as seeing all the neighbours all buy bigger houses: did we miss out? how? where does it leave us?
keeping up with the Joneses applies, I think, to fashion as well, and joe and josephine bloggs are not comfortable with binning the status quo on which they base their own sexuality, and on which they gladly limit their own self expression in the larger interest of their own security. joe thrusting executive gladly limits his wardrobe to dull suits because he feels they lend him power: when the executive next door wears skirts, what does he do now? the game is up, and the emperor was in fact wearing nothing useful at all.
so don't be surprised if some people you work with, especially in the executive world, look the other way and avoid discussing your fashion choices: you've threatened their security, and are much more powerful than you think. they look away out of fear and not genuine disrespect. I've noticed, in a skirt or kilt, that women openly point it out to their men, and to each other, while men often look very thoughtful or even uncomfortable. the women already know what is afoot and they welcome it: their security is not threatened because they are already secure.
this mechanism taken to extremes is, I think, also behind the yobs who make a fuss and shout insults from moving vehicles, which some members here have reported. Should yobbie joe let the skirted man pass without his loud disapproval and comment, the glare of attention might well fall on his own shaky sense of identity and masculinity, and, at least in their mind, throw their whole life into disarray and meaninglessness.
(The media hacks who yell insults and catcalls from the moving vehicle of their newspaper column think in the same way: the difference is they have progressed further despite their own insecurity, thanks to a brighter intelligence and a sly manipulation of others' opinions of them, so have way more to lose than skinhead pete in his ford fiesta with the coffe-tin exhaust pipe, 100 watt speakers, and the foster's 4x in the glove compartment. Media yobbo has not just a souped up tinpot car but a jag, a penthouse, and a £100k income: hence the loud "boos" from the newspapers, which often get reported here).
The only thing man cannot endure is meaninglessness.
Bravo...
What are dustmen? I think TFCK has the best latest kilt fashion over there ( love to get one of those silvery ones) for a change, but the prices will need to get more reasonable for the commoner to make their move. Perhaps a mass-produced item?
binx
binx
Hi Ian,
I had thought that UK people had progressed since the 70's (being a UK man myself, and having progressed in thought and deed since then).
I was mistaken. I've been reading other peoples experiences in my local area (Dorset) with dressing in unorthodox fashion. Many of the locals are little better than scum quite frankly, even spitting at people for dressing differently.
If you are correct in your summation of the UKs attitudes then it shows how dim and pathetic a lot of them are.
I wonder, though, how different it would be in other countries? I get the feeling this 'class' fixation is inbred into humans.
Jeff.
I had thought that UK people had progressed since the 70's (being a UK man myself, and having progressed in thought and deed since then).
I was mistaken. I've been reading other peoples experiences in my local area (Dorset) with dressing in unorthodox fashion. Many of the locals are little better than scum quite frankly, even spitting at people for dressing differently.
If you are correct in your summation of the UKs attitudes then it shows how dim and pathetic a lot of them are.
I wonder, though, how different it would be in other countries? I get the feeling this 'class' fixation is inbred into humans.
Jeff.
for sure, there are many people in england who have been very receptive to me personally whenever I wore kilts and skirts. my stepdaughter of 25 finally got used to the idea, even. it's just that the mass of mankind--the huge majority--can't change gears quick enough to work at the speed we here are looking for.
I think you're right, that resistance to change is built into the design of humans, because otherwise the whole society would be liable to unpredictable changes in direction. as it is, minor changes in fashion are enough to satisfy people's need for variety; it is only forward thinking elements which look beyond this.
I remember reading one guy's experiences here; he'd encountered so much resistance from his peers that he gave up. sad to see that, but also useful to know why this resistance occurs and realise that it isn't because of some failing in ourselves.
there are sickos out there who only want to expose themselves but they're seen for what they are. we mustn't confuse ourselves with them just because other people do! being different is such an unsettling experience, don't you find?
I think you're right, that resistance to change is built into the design of humans, because otherwise the whole society would be liable to unpredictable changes in direction. as it is, minor changes in fashion are enough to satisfy people's need for variety; it is only forward thinking elements which look beyond this.
I remember reading one guy's experiences here; he'd encountered so much resistance from his peers that he gave up. sad to see that, but also useful to know why this resistance occurs and realise that it isn't because of some failing in ourselves.
there are sickos out there who only want to expose themselves but they're seen for what they are. we mustn't confuse ourselves with them just because other people do! being different is such an unsettling experience, don't you find?
The only thing man cannot endure is meaninglessness.
) who collects the rubbish i.e. garbage.Iain said...being different is such an unsettling experience, don't you find?
Haha! I've spent my entire life being different and unsettled!
Personally I'd love it if the mass of mankind were prone to unpredictable changes of view. Imagine the varied clothing options that would appear for a start. We're headed for destruction as a species because of our plodding unwilingness to change, so maybe we need to become unpredictable.Charlie, if a dustman became Prime Minister (a virtual impossibility unless he was brainwashed by Eton or Cambridge etcetc) at least the streets would be cleaner
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Departed Member
tribal nation
did you mean boat steward or bar stewardmerlin wrote:Having a boat steward as Deputy Prime Minister hasn't improved catering on cross channel ferries! :ninjajig:
Dinnae get me started on Johnny 2 Jags!Iain - a verry thoughtful and thought provoking piece. I've noticed that even when people "don't want o conform" - e.g. teenagers, they adopt their own unique and closely regulated dress and behaviours.
I guess that humanity is still at heart a tribal animal and the "class" you mention is a number of "tribes", that go together to make up the nation. I belive that its possible to be a member of different tribes on different occasions: The tribe of blue collar workers, then at the weekend the tribe of football supporters, etc.
BTW I for one am totally brassed off by the media adulation of so called "celebrities". The Big Brother producers showed the whole thing up by passing a nonentity off as a celeb and the dear girl got 1st place!!
Anyway at least in Oxford the great unwashed seem reasonably tolerant of an old boy in a kilt - thank goodness. ( And I do think that we will see MIS as mainstream one day)
Jock MacHinery
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"Illegitimis Non Carborundum"
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"Illegitimis Non Carborundum"
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Departed Member
Said 'gent' was a steward on board Mercantile Marine vessels. A good mate of mine was an engineer on the same boat as him. He said that "2J" (that wasn't what he was known as then!) was voted in as a full-time Union rep to, err, get him off the boats! Apparently, he wasn't too popular with his peers! :ninjajig: (No! Not piers! Peers!)Jock wrote:did you mean boat steward or bar steward