Fifty years ago!
THe Friday before Halloween. It was 1956. A diffrent day and age and culture then exists now.
My two best friends committed suicide, one day apart from each other. They were only 12 years old, just as I was.
Jimmy hung himself, in his mother's clothes closet, fully dressed in one of her outfits, completely from the underwear on out, even with one of her purses in his hands (found at his feet when he dropped it during the spasms that racked him). Make-up and jewelery included.
Word and rumors spread like wildfire the next day, of course. And I heard Jimmy's father was enraged over wanting to know who did this to HIS BOY!
That next day, Saturday, Bobbie hung himself from the rafter in the family garage. Same scene, only it was his older sister's clothes.
Both families were devasted, to say the least, moved away and we never heard from them again, even though they had been my best friends.
Later, as an adult and a newspaper reporter I was able to go poke around in old police files and check our the truth behind the rumors. By then I knew a lot more about psychologly then I did as a 12 year old boy.
Basically, there was no notes left behind. But that is common with TV/TGs etc. They way they dressed is their notes. The family broke up, which is also common after the loss of children.
But I know what none of them knew back then.
We, the three of us had a secret club we called "The Girls Glub" because we were three boys who all wished we had born girls. There was no talk, amongst us, of the idea of changing gender, that was beyond our concepts. But all three of us were being picked on by other children, older boys especially and mostly. Our moms had all wanted girls and had all dressed us as girls as pre-schoolers, before the Dads came home from WWII. The Moms all pretended that nothing had ever happened but other children knew and wouldn' let us forget it.
Unlike Jimmy or Bobbie, I grew up, GREW UP, so I was almost six foot tall by 12. I had begun to fight back against the teasing and I even spent time protecting Jimmy and Bobbie whenever I could. I was in a lot of fights that I couldn't tell my parents about or explain to them why I was in a fight almost daily. But I was trying to protect my smaller friends.
I never knew how deep their depression was until those terrible days when two really nice, funny little boys took their own lives.
And what drives me crazy, even today, it was mostly about what they wanted to wear. A culture drove them to suicide because they were more girlish then other boys and wanted to wear girls or womens clothing.
Today I still don't undertsand this or know how to cope with it.
In my own life I been in terapy many times and at least found I can wear kilts or skirts. I've found a sense of comromise with our culture.
But what has been the cost for those that haven't found this compromise.
Dennis
My saddest day!
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Dennis A Lederl
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Such words, so hard to give a reply to.
It's regrettable in hearing this and what happened, and it's also sad in knowing that while it happened 50 years ago, it still happens today.
It's annoying that males are overly oppressed and that so many people are blind to this fact.
Steven
It's regrettable in hearing this and what happened, and it's also sad in knowing that while it happened 50 years ago, it still happens today.
It's annoying that males are overly oppressed and that so many people are blind to this fact.
Steven
People should fear the people that fear me - "The Fifth Edge"
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Tim Stannard
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Yes, a very sad story. I believe that the high incidence of suicide amongst young men is at least in part attributable to the culture where men are expected to supress their full range of feelings. (The only apparently "acceptable" feelings for men are beligerent and macho type feelings.)
I'm not saying that all young male suicides would wish to wear skirts, but that this is part of the same restrictive and oppresive culture.
Geegee.
"Comfort before conformity."
I'm not saying that all young male suicides would wish to wear skirts, but that this is part of the same restrictive and oppresive culture.
Geegee.
"Comfort before conformity."
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AMM
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Your story touched me. I wish I could say something to ease the pain of those memories.
I remember something of life 50 years ago and I think I have some appreciation of the pressure that must have lead to them doing what they did. I'd like to think it wouldn't happen now.
I was 3 years old in 1956, so I can't speak for that year, but I remember how harsh everything seemed when I was a child -- measure up to the Standards or else. Being a boy meant suffering your daily ordeals with defiance and pride -- God help you if you cried, even your parents would disown you then. And nobody -- of either gender -- could live down being called a "brain." And you never heard of anyone who was different. If you couldn't throw a baseball to someone 50 yards away, you were the only person on the planet who was so defective. One of Darwin's rejects. And want to wear a dress? Nobody in the history of the human race was as perverted as you!
I also remember how things changed somewhat in the late '60's -- the changes began to seep through even to Ante-bellum Virginia, and riding a bicycle to school went from being a social disaster to being "cool", and long hair on boys became comprehensible, if still controversial.
The late '60's were also the time of Stonewall, though I didn't know it then -- being gay went from being a social crime (my eye doctor had to leave town when they discovered he was gay) to being almost cool 20 years later.
I gather from talking to other people who grew up in places like New York that things were always a little looser there. I've seen CD'ers in full regalia waiting for and riding the trains, and no one even looks. You have to wear a helmet with springy stars, play bad saxophone on the subway, and announce to all that you're from Arcturus to even get a comment out of them. (Mostly: "he ought to get music lessons.")
So I think if you moved to, say, Madison Wisconsin, or San Fransisco, or Seattle, things might be better.
On the other hand, when the annual Quaker gathering was in Kentucky, gays who held hands in public were harrassed by the locals. So Kentucky doesn't sound like a good place to be "out" with your skirting.
And the Internet has opened things up. Places like Tom's Cafe provide the opportunity to find out that you're not the only one with your dreadful secret (whatever that secret happens to be.)
But it's still very hard on kids, anywhere. I think there's more pressure to succeed than there was. It may be easier for a kid to be gay now (though not easy), but harder to be fat. Parents and teachers still emotionally disown kids that don't meet their preconceptions of who or what they should be. Kids still mercilessly pick on kids that don't fit in (like my sons), or just aren't good at defending themselves, and no adult will bother to do anything. Their lives are dominated by school, which are larger and more impersonal. Much of what passes for freedom is just nobody caring if you live or die.
I'd like to think that kids like your friends would have an easier time finding someone understanding and supportive now than 50 years ago.
I think some can, with luck. I wish your friends could have.
-- AMM
I remember something of life 50 years ago and I think I have some appreciation of the pressure that must have lead to them doing what they did. I'd like to think it wouldn't happen now.
I was 3 years old in 1956, so I can't speak for that year, but I remember how harsh everything seemed when I was a child -- measure up to the Standards or else. Being a boy meant suffering your daily ordeals with defiance and pride -- God help you if you cried, even your parents would disown you then. And nobody -- of either gender -- could live down being called a "brain." And you never heard of anyone who was different. If you couldn't throw a baseball to someone 50 yards away, you were the only person on the planet who was so defective. One of Darwin's rejects. And want to wear a dress? Nobody in the history of the human race was as perverted as you!
I also remember how things changed somewhat in the late '60's -- the changes began to seep through even to Ante-bellum Virginia, and riding a bicycle to school went from being a social disaster to being "cool", and long hair on boys became comprehensible, if still controversial.
The late '60's were also the time of Stonewall, though I didn't know it then -- being gay went from being a social crime (my eye doctor had to leave town when they discovered he was gay) to being almost cool 20 years later.
I gather from talking to other people who grew up in places like New York that things were always a little looser there. I've seen CD'ers in full regalia waiting for and riding the trains, and no one even looks. You have to wear a helmet with springy stars, play bad saxophone on the subway, and announce to all that you're from Arcturus to even get a comment out of them. (Mostly: "he ought to get music lessons.")
So I think if you moved to, say, Madison Wisconsin, or San Fransisco, or Seattle, things might be better.
On the other hand, when the annual Quaker gathering was in Kentucky, gays who held hands in public were harrassed by the locals. So Kentucky doesn't sound like a good place to be "out" with your skirting.
And the Internet has opened things up. Places like Tom's Cafe provide the opportunity to find out that you're not the only one with your dreadful secret (whatever that secret happens to be.)
But it's still very hard on kids, anywhere. I think there's more pressure to succeed than there was. It may be easier for a kid to be gay now (though not easy), but harder to be fat. Parents and teachers still emotionally disown kids that don't meet their preconceptions of who or what they should be. Kids still mercilessly pick on kids that don't fit in (like my sons), or just aren't good at defending themselves, and no adult will bother to do anything. Their lives are dominated by school, which are larger and more impersonal. Much of what passes for freedom is just nobody caring if you live or die.
I'd like to think that kids like your friends would have an easier time finding someone understanding and supportive now than 50 years ago.
I think some can, with luck. I wish your friends could have.
-- AMM
Thanks for all the fish.
Dennis, that is so dreadful. And such an indictment of society.
It reminded me of Skip's post in the thread: Schools 'too feminine for boys'.
Skip described a society that was much more humane and tolerant than our modern world generally is, where boys who did not fit the 'warrior' mould/mold were fully accepted and NOT vilified by the tribe. The elders just said, "that's the way that boy is, why try to change him?" Many of these boys grew up to be the medicine men and were thought to be more in touch with the spirits. They became men of importance in the tribes and their opinions held much weight.
Why did us Europeans try to eradicate these tribes and their culture?
Our world has improved only slightly since then. At this this very moment there is someone so opinionated he is trying to re-shape the Middle East.
Richard
It reminded me of Skip's post in the thread: Schools 'too feminine for boys'.
Skip described a society that was much more humane and tolerant than our modern world generally is, where boys who did not fit the 'warrior' mould/mold were fully accepted and NOT vilified by the tribe. The elders just said, "that's the way that boy is, why try to change him?" Many of these boys grew up to be the medicine men and were thought to be more in touch with the spirits. They became men of importance in the tribes and their opinions held much weight.
Why did us Europeans try to eradicate these tribes and their culture?
Our world has improved only slightly since then. At this this very moment there is someone so opinionated he is trying to re-shape the Middle East.
Richard
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Bravehearts.us
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Dennis my friend, we’ve come to know each other fairly well over the years but you never let on about this experience. I’m sorry you had to endure the loss of such friends.
It reminds me of a similar experience I had as a boy.
It was 1961. I was 13 and had a friend named Michael who lived just over the hill from us on a farm. We rode a bus 4 miles to school each day and the kids use to tease him about wearing girls underwear. To my knowledge he didn’t but that fact didn’t stop the teasing. I don’t know why they teased him except that maybe it was because he was shy, quiet and very gentile…not effeminate, just gentile. He, his brother and two sisters were good friends that I played with a lot and as a matter of fact I was sweet on his sister Teresa. Any way, I use to get in arguments with the kids that teased him and sometimes fights would break out on the bus between myself and those kids. Michael never fought or defended himself even verbally. One day after the bus ride home and a lot of teasing, Michael went to the barn and hung himself. I always wished I would have talked to him that day on the bus. To this day I wonder if he would still be alive if I would have reassured him that he had a friend who believed in him.
I was teased also because I wore girl’s knee socks but I never let it get to me the way it got to Michael. I learned from it instead. I wish I could have taught him how to learn from what the kids did to him.
To put a real sad end to the story, his sister drowned in the town swimming pool that summer and just before school started in the fall, his younger brother shot and killed himself accidentally. The mother and father got divorced, sold the farm and moved away. I never heard from Teresa again.
Lar
It reminds me of a similar experience I had as a boy.
It was 1961. I was 13 and had a friend named Michael who lived just over the hill from us on a farm. We rode a bus 4 miles to school each day and the kids use to tease him about wearing girls underwear. To my knowledge he didn’t but that fact didn’t stop the teasing. I don’t know why they teased him except that maybe it was because he was shy, quiet and very gentile…not effeminate, just gentile. He, his brother and two sisters were good friends that I played with a lot and as a matter of fact I was sweet on his sister Teresa. Any way, I use to get in arguments with the kids that teased him and sometimes fights would break out on the bus between myself and those kids. Michael never fought or defended himself even verbally. One day after the bus ride home and a lot of teasing, Michael went to the barn and hung himself. I always wished I would have talked to him that day on the bus. To this day I wonder if he would still be alive if I would have reassured him that he had a friend who believed in him.
I was teased also because I wore girl’s knee socks but I never let it get to me the way it got to Michael. I learned from it instead. I wish I could have taught him how to learn from what the kids did to him.
To put a real sad end to the story, his sister drowned in the town swimming pool that summer and just before school started in the fall, his younger brother shot and killed himself accidentally. The mother and father got divorced, sold the farm and moved away. I never heard from Teresa again.
Lar
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Since1982
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Richard
The European tribes did and still do try to eradicate anything or anyone that is not like them. Progress and the wonders of the modern world has not changed the imprinted ancient modes of Kings and warriors. Those with ancestral heritage of Kings and warriors are still trying to eradicate anything they don't agree with. Lots of those same Europeans came to America and brought their beliefs with them and are STILL stuffing their ideas down everyone's throats. Look what happened in ancient Rome to Christians, and conversely, Look what happened to poor people by the Christians in the Inquisition..Nothing's changed, the Kings and warriors just dress differently.Richard wrote:Why did us Europeans try to eradicate these tribes and their culture?
I had to remove this signature as it was being used on Twitter. This is my OPINION, you NEEDN'T AGREE.
Story of Life, Perspire, Expire, Funeral Pyre!I've been skirted part time since 1972 and full time since 2005. http://skirts4men.myfreeforum.org/
Story of Life, Perspire, Expire, Funeral Pyre!I've been skirted part time since 1972 and full time since 2005. http://skirts4men.myfreeforum.org/
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Dennis A Lederl
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I was the driving force behind my life!
After the deaths of Jimmy and Bobbie I hid from our society.
Jimmy's father was in such a rage over "who did this" to Jimmy, blaming everyone else that I tried for years to hide or supress my own wants and desires.
It left me perplexed and angry at a society that ditated (and still does) what men and boys can wear. We, men in skirts and kilts, should be embracing each other and each of our individuals wans and needs.
It makes me sad whenever there's a flame war here over freestylers and bravhearts.
It shouldn't matter if a kilt or skirt is worn and it shold matter either if a man or boy wants to dress fully as in women's clothing.
I personally would prefer it if men did not impersonate, which is what I think society gets really angery about, but I would prefer seeing all men and any men wearing what they want. That would, to me, be much prfered over repression.
I will stand up to bullies and fight a thousand battles to protect the rights of men (and women) to lead their own lives and dress as they please.
It's a time that's long over due.
Dennis
:ninjajig:
Jimmy's father was in such a rage over "who did this" to Jimmy, blaming everyone else that I tried for years to hide or supress my own wants and desires.
It left me perplexed and angry at a society that ditated (and still does) what men and boys can wear. We, men in skirts and kilts, should be embracing each other and each of our individuals wans and needs.
It makes me sad whenever there's a flame war here over freestylers and bravhearts.
It shouldn't matter if a kilt or skirt is worn and it shold matter either if a man or boy wants to dress fully as in women's clothing.
I personally would prefer it if men did not impersonate, which is what I think society gets really angery about, but I would prefer seeing all men and any men wearing what they want. That would, to me, be much prfered over repression.
I will stand up to bullies and fight a thousand battles to protect the rights of men (and women) to lead their own lives and dress as they please.
It's a time that's long over due.
Dennis
:ninjajig:
Dennis -
I agree with you 100%. I think you will find that the definition of crossdressing here is simply this: dressing in a way as to try and appear as the opposite sex. This definition leaves hordes of room for wearing whatever you will, whenever you will. However it is sad that society today has a double standard to this very issue.
Take this basic example: Compare the wardrobes of a man and woman who have a moderate amount of clothing for different occasions.
In a modern "average" man's wardrobe, assuming he has a sizable collection of clothing, it would probably contain: shirts, ties, belts, (maybe) suspenders, suit jacket, socks, shoes, t-shirts and maybe some tanktops, and pants and shorts of different kinds.
Now compare this to the "average" modern women's wardrobe, which would include all of the above except maybe the suspenders (although it is "socially acceptable" if she wishes). It would probably also include the strictly "feminine" clothing of skirts, dresses, pantyhose, slips, and high-heel shoes. Note that women can under society's current ideals have everyone of these in their wardrobe.It is strictly female-inclusive, meaning woman can go to the "male" end of the clothing spectrum and still be percieved as wearing woman's clothing, however men cannot wear "female" clothing without having some sort of "femininity" attatched to him.
In terms of underwear, it is socially "acceptable" at least to some level of degree for women to wear men's underwear. It may seem a bit wierd in some people's eyes, however it is socially tolerable. However if a man wore women's underwear it is highly suspect compared to society's norms, and he may be even labeled a "pervert", "homosexual" or other such names. Now, would someone be so quick to call a woman wearing male underwear such names?
If a woman in a restarunt was wearing underwear that to the casual eye was obviously men's, and it had crept up above her pants and it was showing to the world, most people would probably ignore it or at the very least not say anything. Now if a man sitting in the same position were wearing woman's underwear that was exposed, he would be much more likely to get some crude/snide comments.
The definition of crossdressing should change from "wearing clothes of the opposite gender" to "wearing clothes to embody the opposite gender". We see how the definition of "crossdressing" for women has narrowed over the past 50 to 100 years as women's fashion has moved towards encompassing almost all of men's fashion. There is very little of men's fashion that has yet to be also claimed by women's fashion. However crossdressing for men has been basically the same over the same period of time. Jewelry to some degree, footwear to some degree (although not heels), male thongs, long hair, brighter clothing colors, tank tops (thick strapped) and one or two things I might also be forgetting are about as far as male fashion has gone into the "female" end of the fashion spectrum.
I agree with you 100%. I think you will find that the definition of crossdressing here is simply this: dressing in a way as to try and appear as the opposite sex. This definition leaves hordes of room for wearing whatever you will, whenever you will. However it is sad that society today has a double standard to this very issue.
Take this basic example: Compare the wardrobes of a man and woman who have a moderate amount of clothing for different occasions.
In a modern "average" man's wardrobe, assuming he has a sizable collection of clothing, it would probably contain: shirts, ties, belts, (maybe) suspenders, suit jacket, socks, shoes, t-shirts and maybe some tanktops, and pants and shorts of different kinds.
Now compare this to the "average" modern women's wardrobe, which would include all of the above except maybe the suspenders (although it is "socially acceptable" if she wishes). It would probably also include the strictly "feminine" clothing of skirts, dresses, pantyhose, slips, and high-heel shoes. Note that women can under society's current ideals have everyone of these in their wardrobe.It is strictly female-inclusive, meaning woman can go to the "male" end of the clothing spectrum and still be percieved as wearing woman's clothing, however men cannot wear "female" clothing without having some sort of "femininity" attatched to him.
In terms of underwear, it is socially "acceptable" at least to some level of degree for women to wear men's underwear. It may seem a bit wierd in some people's eyes, however it is socially tolerable. However if a man wore women's underwear it is highly suspect compared to society's norms, and he may be even labeled a "pervert", "homosexual" or other such names. Now, would someone be so quick to call a woman wearing male underwear such names?
If a woman in a restarunt was wearing underwear that to the casual eye was obviously men's, and it had crept up above her pants and it was showing to the world, most people would probably ignore it or at the very least not say anything. Now if a man sitting in the same position were wearing woman's underwear that was exposed, he would be much more likely to get some crude/snide comments.
The definition of crossdressing should change from "wearing clothes of the opposite gender" to "wearing clothes to embody the opposite gender". We see how the definition of "crossdressing" for women has narrowed over the past 50 to 100 years as women's fashion has moved towards encompassing almost all of men's fashion. There is very little of men's fashion that has yet to be also claimed by women's fashion. However crossdressing for men has been basically the same over the same period of time. Jewelry to some degree, footwear to some degree (although not heels), male thongs, long hair, brighter clothing colors, tank tops (thick strapped) and one or two things I might also be forgetting are about as far as male fashion has gone into the "female" end of the fashion spectrum.
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Since1982
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Exactly!!
Well said, Boca!!
I had to remove this signature as it was being used on Twitter. This is my OPINION, you NEEDN'T AGREE.
Story of Life, Perspire, Expire, Funeral Pyre!I've been skirted part time since 1972 and full time since 2005. http://skirts4men.myfreeforum.org/
Story of Life, Perspire, Expire, Funeral Pyre!I've been skirted part time since 1972 and full time since 2005. http://skirts4men.myfreeforum.org/
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Since1982
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female attire
I dont wear "female" attire. I wear MY attire. I thought you did too. Guess I was wrong.
I had to remove this signature as it was being used on Twitter. This is my OPINION, you NEEDN'T AGREE.
Story of Life, Perspire, Expire, Funeral Pyre!I've been skirted part time since 1972 and full time since 2005. http://skirts4men.myfreeforum.org/
Story of Life, Perspire, Expire, Funeral Pyre!I've been skirted part time since 1972 and full time since 2005. http://skirts4men.myfreeforum.org/
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Departed Member
Hear, hear!Since1982 wrote:I dont wear "female" attire. I wear MY attire. I thought you did too. Guess I was wrong.
Those who want to wear "female" attire as such have (apparently) a range of other websites they can visit, more suited to their desires.Women seem to wear whatever they like, however lacking in taste or decorum they may appear to anyone else. Sadly, (& partly as a result of this) many of them are slowly succumbing to the feminazi's 'ideal' of becoming 'second-class men'.
