No Brainer but

Jerseyman · Post by **Jerseyman** » Wed Jul 12, 2006 2:29 am

I still dont get the narrow view of people,Its a Skirt....let me refrase that Its clothing. I belong to other Forums and Some people are just so Narrow minded.It just makes me wonder.If men were wearing skirts and women had pants woud we Be fighting for the right to wear pants.

Reject · Post by **Reject** » Wed Jul 12, 2006 8:48 am

Most likely; yes.

Even though, materialistically speaking, you could say that a skirt is just a piece of garment.
However, this misses some valid points. An object, be it a skirt or a chair or a guitar, holds certain cultural values by virtue of society. An object also depicts this value differently depending on time/space location.
For instance; a car isnt just any car. A BMW 525 depicts different associations than a Ford Kadett from '68. However, any car in the 1910's would certainly connote 'richdom', while we today dont really think of a car owner as a rich man.

In the same way, a skirt isnt just a piece of cloth per se. A skirt connotes social codes as well. In western societies "it happens" to be, most of the time, feminity. However, in other locations (for instances India) this may not be the case.
This is both our opportunity as well as our holding cell. Because of the time/space location, we know it can change. But because of the cultural values attached to said item, it will also be hard to change it, because you're not changing merely an object, but also the cultural values attached to it.

/Ricky, Sweden

P.S. Pardon the English, I havent made good use of my written English in years.

Rogon · Post by **Rogon** » Wed Jul 12, 2006 9:47 am

You shouldn't have to apologize for your English there's not many of us who can read or write Swedish. We don't even make good use of our English.:wave2:

Post by **Bob** » Wed Jul 12, 2006 10:42 am

Jerseyman... have you been the recipient of narrow views in specific cases? This issue is much easier to discuss in the public. Most of us have found that most people don't really care what you wear, especially in a place like NJ.

alexthebird · Post by **alexthebird** » Wed Jul 12, 2006 10:42 am

Reject wrote:An object also depicts this value differently depending on time/space location...

In the same way, a skirt isnt just a piece of cloth per se. A skirt connotes social codes as well. In western societies "it happens" to be, most of the time, feminity.

But because of the cultural values attached to said item, it will also be hard to change it, because you're not changing merely an object, but also the cultural values attached to it.

I think there's even more to it than that. Since traditionally men have occupied a superior position in society, the skirts, dresses, jewelry and other elements of fashion that mark feminity "belong" to an "inferior" class of people. This has two effects that inhibit the acceptance of men's fashion choices.

First, it can appear as if men are attempting to co-opt one more thing that is special and unique to women, in the sense that men are taking away the privilege and uniqueness of being fashionable.

Second, and I think this is an even stronger issue, in almost any culture it is a strong taboo for a member of a superior class to adopt the symbolism of an inferior class. It is permissible to strive for success by attempting to use the symbols of the superior class (it is OK for women to emulate men's styles) but it disrupts the natural balance for the superior class to imitate the inferior one (it is NOT OK for men to emulate women's styles).

All of which means, I believe, that whatever negative reaction we receive to our choice in clothing is a reflection of just how deeply sexism is imbedded in our culture.

MtnBiker · Post by **MtnBiker** » Wed Jul 12, 2006 11:30 am

alexthebird wrote:... this is an even stronger issue, in almost any culture it is a strong taboo for a member of a superior class to adopt the symbolism of an inferior class. ...

I'm not sure about that idea ... witness the current trend of youth wearing clothes meant to emulate prison-wear -- saggy pants, orange shoes with velcro closures, etc. Surely the folks who dress in this fashion do not feel as though they are adopting the symbolism of a superior class -- do they?

Reject · Post by **Reject** » Wed Jul 12, 2006 11:32 am

Biker: probably not "superior class", but in their eyes, Im sure they're trying to adopt a cooler image (as opposed to a sissy image). So you may say that the strive is upwards (in coolness, not class-wise) rather than downwards.

Jerseyman · Post by **Jerseyman** » Wed Jul 12, 2006 12:27 pm

Ok when I say narrow minded. I mean One dimentional thinking.And as for Being the recipient of narrow minded views.The majority of what I think always seems to fall on the ears of Narrow minded people.If you are woundering what I can be thinking here are four things

We need to leave gay people alone(I am not gay but I have many friends who are)

Clothing is clothing

Religion is over rated(any religion,and I don't mean to offend any one here by saying this Its just my opinion)

We need to embrace our History and learn from it(This is mostly a usa thing as well as a family thing.most people here could not tell you Any american history as well any of there own family history)

Art in a culture is important

I don't mean to come off as a angry person or as anything else negative but this is who I am.

As for the Time/Space thing.I think its always been more like a popularity contest.person x wears a red shirt he is popular so i will rear a red shirt.The next person is like oh person r has a red shirt and is popular so i will get a red shirt with a pocket made buy company q.and so on and so on.Then it dies out.eventualy to repeat its self.

nitrox · Post by **nitrox** » Wed Jul 12, 2006 6:26 pm

The prison look is just a popular trend right now because hip hop and rappers make it look really cool to dress like that. They pay the right looking type of people to be around them (hot girls, people with expensive things, bla bla bla) and so then they're thinking, if I want what he has, I should do what he does. End of story..

Loads of people are still really stuck in the learned gender roles. I have personal experience of this being taught and it was really sad, but not much to be done of it.

nitrox · Post by **nitrox** » Wed Jul 12, 2006 9:53 pm

I heard 2 blokes in Subway while getting a sandwitch say that they wouldn't trust a guy in a skirt, but then I turned slowely and noticed that they were also pissy in every other regard basically being negative to everything they could. Those are probably the only ones you have to worry about and they're very few of anyway.