Gender Non-Conformance and Religion

[STEVIE]

...

More likely they want do everything, wigs makeup etc. Why? Because the want to. Or maybe they think they have to, they can't just throw on a skirt and sit there in a skirt or a dress, drinking Guinness and smoking a pipe.

...

And there is the problem.

Why would anyone think they have to do it all or nothing? This idea is what we need to fight against. Otherwise, all we have is the ever shrinking "man box" of acceptable male attire and behavior.

Dust and Barley are right on! I have wondered many times if there would be so many people completely crossdressing or actually wanting to transition MTF if they felt that they could just put on a skirt, heels, and whatever items that they like and go about their life without facing judgement. Also Females wearing male attire are more readily accepted. That could be the reason that you don’t see as many people transitioning from FTM.

Does this make sense? What are your thoughts?

I was that "anyone" who thought it had to be "all or nothing", and I have stated that here on several occasions.
It's simple, female clothes can only ever be acceptable on a female so therefore a feminine appearance is assumed as a necessity.
A subterfuge, a disguise, a lie by any standards and a hard one to maintain too.
Dust and Barley are certainly right, but the idea is far from new and the kilt as an ersatz acceptable manskirt is a very good example.
Perhaps the "Kilt" has prevented more MTF transitions than we will ever know, I'd concede that as a point in it's favour.
Returning to the religious aspect, all that has done is heaped on the guilt, helped with nothing and done untold harm to any number of men and boys.
My life improved very dramatically when I threw on a skirt and went to the pub for a Guinness and a smoke of the old pipe.
Steve

[kingfish]

I am the great grandson of a southern baptist preacher, and have the following observations regarding my skirt wearing in the remarkably conservative region of Armstrong County TX, and also a mind-blower that happened one morning watching one of the 5am religious shows.

First my parent's reaction when I first told them and the reaction(s) of other people in their old home town.

My parents and family accepted my alternate taste(s) as just and moral. I've been in kilt plenty of times to their church in rural NW Texas. I chickened out and didn't full-on dress like the ladies (I really did want to wear the prairie skirt), but the kilt did put forth a better sense of formality and respect for the environment. And everyone was okay with it, and many even reacted in positively to the look. To further define how rural and traditional Claude Texas, my dad's home town is, It's the county seat, covers about 2-3 square miles of real estate, has a population around 1100, and is rather proud of the fact that the famous Charles Goodnight had is home just east of town. And they were good with my wearing a kilt everywhere.

My context has always been to be true to myself.
Denying my male configuration was out of the question. I was (and still are) adamant that I'm not looking to become a female, or trying to pass as one. I wasn't dressing girly to gain access to women only spaces (for naughty purposes), nor was I trying to emulate some pagan goddess, or serve one through sexual favors. These statements knocked down just about every argument against my chosen attire. I considered my breaking the rules about what men should or shouldn't wear as me being true to myself in the face of standards created by the society we're in.

But this is just background. Now back top that mind-blower, or dare I say revelation.
It was a couple weeks ago when I heard Romans 12:2 get quoted.

Here's the NIV translation of that:

Do not conform to the pattern of this world, but be transformed by the renewing of your mind. Then you will be able to test and approve what God’s will is—his good, pleasing and perfect will.

That first phrase, that actual recommendation, hit me like cinder block and put a biblical foundation underneath my disregard of the gender based clothing standards. I had always considered them man-made and therefore a part of the pattern of this world.

[Uncle Al]

Uncle Al

[Ray]

Great picture, Steve!

[STEVIE]

Great picture, Steve!

Thanks Ray, that was the very first day that I had worn a skirt at work.
By the Gods, I earned that pint of the Black Nectar that day.
Sadly not armed with a pint of Guinness, but to go back to the religious slant this is a shot taken in my former Sunday School in March 2025.

20250315_140050 Copy.jpg

Sadly in places of worship to a multitude of Gods, men, women and children are still being taught that being "truly" themselves is somehow sinful and to be despised.

Steve.
Alcohol or not who else cans say that they propped up the bar in their former Sunday School while wearing a dress?

[Jim]

Do not conform to the pattern of this world, but be transformed by the renewing of your mind. Then you will be able to test and approve what God’s will is—his good, pleasing and perfect will.

That first phrase, that actual recommendation, hit me like cinder block and put a biblical foundation underneath my disregard of the gender based clothing standards. I had always considered them man-made and therefore a part of the pattern of this world.

The branch of Christianity that I'm part of, the Anabaptists, has traditionally emphasized this verse. Non-conformity to the world is valued. Unfortunately, however, in many places, conformity to the church is pushed.

[STEVIE]

Do not conform to the pattern of this world, but be transformed by the renewing of your mind. Then you will be able to test and approve what God’s will is—his good, pleasing and perfect will.

Kingfish, this is none the less a claim to know the will of a god, whose very existence is debatable.
You wore the kilt as opposed to the preferred prairie skirt as a mark of respect to the "environment".
Respect for your God or the other human worshippers, if I may ask?
I am not challenging your personal faith or beliefs, but that little passage makes not one iota of a difference.

Unfortunately, however, in many places, conformity to the church is pushed.

Certainly not limited to Christianity Jim. nor just the males of the species.
People across the world and a multitude of faiths will still be deterred from being true to themselves in the name of religious dogma.
Conformity is not just pushed, it can be rigorously enforced in all sorts of ways.
Steve.

[kingfish]

Kingfish, this is none the less a claim to know the will of a god, whose very existence is debatable.
You wore the kilt as opposed to the preferred prairie skirt as a mark of respect to the "environment".
Respect for your God or the other human worshippers, if I may ask?
I am not challenging your personal faith or beliefs, but that little passage makes not one iota of a difference.

It was respect for the other worshipers, my parents neighbors. Streotypes also happen to be beliefs too, and discretion is the better part of valor.

For people who don't believe, that passage really is just a bunch of words in what amounts to a morality guide.
But for my fellow believers, those words provide foundational truths. They are truths that help make our skirt wearing a moral and recommended act.

Y'know, debate leverage.

[Dust]

There is a lot in the Bible. Verses are taken out of context all the time. "A text without context is no text at all." You can pull just about anything out of the Bible and make it seem to say almost anything you want if you just cite single or partial verses.

If you are a believer (or even if not), spend time reading Scripture. Not just a verse here or there, but whole books, a chapter or three at a time. Take time to digest it, and pray on it. 15 minutes a day was recommended to me as a starting point. I need to get better about it, myself.

[TheSkirtedMan]

I am not religious but respect those who are. I do occasionally attend services, weddings, funerals etc but I go in a skirt because that is me. Many women attend in trousers and some dressed like men. I have not had any issues being at such events while skirted.

[jjjjohanne]

I go to church every Sunday, and my dressing pretty is a secret from most people who know me. So, I do not have a lot of opportunities to dress pretty for church. I am pretty sure that my church would look down on me wearing a skirt.

I have visited several churches while dressed pretty, however:
* A Seventh Day Adventist church was my first. Saturday morning. I was surprised by how friendly everyone was to me. Before that, all of my dressed up outings were shopping, or impersonal things like that. At church, you talk to each other and meet people. It was a new (and astounding) experience. Everyone was nice to me.
* A Presbyterian church (PC-USA). Sunday morning. They were a rather liberally minded church, from what I could see. I was welcomed. A lady in the congregation introduced me to a guy, whom I think was gay. The pastor said that she gave someone "the bird" while driving and then remembered she had on her collar and that there were other clergy in the car with her. So, not as morally self-conscious as the churches I normally attend.
* A Baptist church. Wednesday night. It seemed to be rather liberal compared to the churches I normally attend. I was mostly ignored. Afterward, a mom and daughter talked to me in the parking lot.
* A Southern Baptist church. Sunday morning. This was an old-timey conservative church. They had a choir and sang hymns to an organ and a piano. This was a lot like the church I grew up going to. People were friendly. During the hand-shake time, a woman got out of her pew, came over to mine, and waited until she could shake my hand, and then she returned to her seat. After the service, several people welcomed me. One family invited me to join them for the meal after church (a church social). Another person invited me. I ended up in a long line that snaked down and back up a hall. So, I stood in line near over half of the congregation. People welcomed me and talked to me. I sat with the family at the meal. Eventually, I realized that their daughter was there with "a friend" who was probably a Lesbian partner. That explained their openness to me!
* A Seventh Day Adventist church. Saturday mornings. This is a different church than mentioned earlier. I visited this one several times. Maybe 6. I even went to a Christmas party they held one evening. From my first visit, I was welcomed by several people. No one seemed to react to my outfit. People remembered my name every time I returned. That must be a core-value of that congregation. Anyhow, I have been hugged by several people there. The pastor left a pre-service meeting to come greet me on my last visit. He hugged me. I was standing in the middle of the sanctuary in the center aisle, and he hugged me in front of everyone who was in the room. Maybe 40 people at that point. I think I was wearing a dress that time. They have a stated goal of treating people with mutual respect, and it shows at this church! (I actually do not know much about what Seventh Day Adventists believe. I have not witnessed anything being taught that was different from Baptist theology. But the pastor said they had some different views on Hell than Baptists. I never asked any follow-up questions about that.
* A Catholic church. Saturday morning Mass. I have attended two or three Mass services at this church. On one visit, I went forward to receive communion. I eventually learned that Catholic churches do not practice "open communion". I am not Catholic, so I should not have received it, according to their rules, if I understand correctly. I was in a black dress that fell to my mid-shin. The deacon who was giving out the bread hesitated when it was my turn, but then gave me the bread and spoke to me like he did to the others. Everyone here seemed friendly. It was not as social at the Catholic church as it is in protestant churches. Mostly because the people were praying before the service and there were things, like confession and the Rosary going on after the service. Outside, on my first visit, I spoke with a nun and her mother. I asked some questions and the nun answered them.

As to whether it is a sin... If it is a sin, then it is a sin. It is God's call. I want to know His heart and try to please Him. I have purged and quit over the years, only to return to it. I would rather dress in nice fabrics than to do lots of other bad things. I'm not sure how I would forever quit if I wanted to. It would be nice to be able to speak openly about this with my faith family, but I do not feel comfortable doing it.

All of these church visits are written about on my blog. I was too lazy to collect some links.

Joey

[Jim]

Thank you, Joey, for your account of good experiences.

[jjjjohanne]

I never had any bad experiences.
There were two occasions where a man looked at me a bit too long, with an unfriendly expression. This experience happened at two different places by different men. Otherwise, I cannot recall any bad experience. I do not consider kids peeking at me a bad experience.

I forgot to reference my blog. http://joeypress.wordpress.com

I do not come around here at skirtcafe very often. But, I appreciate you guys!!

Joey

[Dust]

* A Catholic church. Saturday morning Mass. I have attended two or three Mass services at this church. On one visit, I went forward to receive communion. I eventually learned that Catholic churches do not practice "open communion". I am not Catholic, so I should not have received it, according to their rules, if I understand correctly.

No, you definitely should not have received. Only Catholics (and possibly some Orthodox) are permitted to receive at Catholic churches, and even among Catholics only if you are "in a state of grace" i.e. not having any unconfessed mortal sins on your conscience.

This used to be very widely known. Anymore, not so much, likely due to people (including clergy) avoiding "hard topics" like sin and divisions among Christian groups. I've been to a few parishes that give reminder announcements, but such announcements are few and far between, and far more likely at events like weddings were there are likely to be large numbers on non-Catholics present.

[mr seamstress]

* A Catholic church. Saturday morning Mass. I have attended two or three Mass services at this church. On one visit, I went forward to receive communion. I eventually learned that Catholic churches do not practice "open communion". I am not Catholic, so I should not have received it, according to their rules, if I understand correctly.

No, you definitely should not have received. Only Catholics (and possibly some Orthodox) are permitted to receive at Catholic churches, and even among Catholics only if you are "in a state of grace" i.e. not having any unconfessed mortal sins on your conscience.

This used to be very widely known. Anymore, not so much, likely due to people (including clergy) avoiding "hard topics" like sin and divisions among Christian groups. I've been to a few parishes that give reminder announcements, but such announcements are few and far between, and far more likely at events like weddings were there are likely to be large numbers on non-Catholics present.

I have been into catholic churches and their policy is open communion. They have announce before given communion that everyone can partake.
Some catholic churches have those attending do a ritual, bend a knee and draw a cross front of chest before seating, while others just walk in and sit. Different catholic churches have different policies. Who is going to condemn you for practicing as you are catholic by performing traditional ritual, or for not in respect of catholic faith? We can argue on each side of the coin is right as well wrong. Not judging.