Gender Non-Conformance and Religion

[mr seamstress]

I wore skirts occasionally at the church we used to go to. I had several positive comments and checked with a number of people that they were ok with it. Then 1 of the leaders took me aside and asked me to think about Deut 22:5 which I did and told him it was relevant.

If only the churches would teach the full truth what the bible is saying. During the Biblical times man and woman wore same clothing. Need to read when Jesus complain about men wearing long robes.
Baptist churches are bad about making it sound like man and woman wore different clothing, but there are others out there just like them. Even Baptist churches would quote parts of the Bible and turn around and say we do not believe this what the Bible teaches. You can spend hours listen to a sermon and have that same person says we the Baptist do not recognize this being part of our faith.
In Genesis God made same garments for Adam and Eve. And God didn't make Adam any pants. When Jesus was born, Mary wasn't instructed how to cloth Jesus so he wouldn't look like a girl. But then there is nothing in the Bible says one cannot same dress one boy or girl. How can it be a sin for a man to wear dress as grownup but not as a child? Why isn't it a sin for parents to put dresses on boys? Bottom line every parent must have sin when clothing their infants for all of them since beginning of time have dress their infants in same clothing regardless of sex. There was never a boy's cloth diaper or girl's diaper. Diapers was folded and worn the same regardless of infant sex.

https://biblicalpathway.com/5-symbols-o ... cal-robes/

https://www.bible.com/bible/compare/MRK.12.38-40

Just remind everyone you are just dressing just like when you was an infant, there wasn't any barriers how parents dress their infants.
Also remind them of the 5th Commandment, Honor Thy Parents. The best honor in my opinion is wearing dresses and skirts and tell everyone you are obeying the 5th Commandment. You wore same thing as girls wore when you was infant. Wear same thing under the 5th Commandment and Honor Thy Parents for dressing you that way. Anybody throws Deuteronomy in my face and I throw the 5th commandment back at them and they choose to clothes their infants exactly the same regardless of their sex.

[sellek]

I am not a regular Church goer but I do attend some services especially when they put on an 'Iona' Celtic service. Most people at Church, men and women wear trousers, indeed I think sometimes I may have been the only person at Church wearing a skirt. When most people at Church apart from me and maybe one or two others are wearing trousers what constitutes men's clothing and what constitutes women's clothing?
If I am at an 'Iona' celtic service then I guess we can look back to the type of clothing worn by celtic men, which sort of takes us back to skirt type garments which were forerunners of modern kilts. And so I feel I feel OK about wearing a skirt to Church and nobody seems at all concerned.

I am guessing it is mentioned in the bible because there were issues about people dressing in certain ways for nefarious purposes and it is ultimately these purposes that are the problem not the clothing itself.

[Barleymower]

I am guessing it is mentioned in the bible because there were issues about people dressing in certain ways for nefarious purposes and it is ultimately these purposes that are the problem not the clothing itself.

Everyone will have their theory as to why people get hot under the collar about clothes. I have reasoned this question many times and listened to what people has to say. For what it is worth here is the one explanation that makes most sense.

As boys we are NOT taught how to be a man, boys are told NOT to be women.

That's it lesson over. You can list through in a vast amount of duties for men and women but at the core or it all is "Don't be a women". The smallest hint of girliness sets off alarm bells in some. The same is not true for women. Here is an example from another forum form a worried parent:
"My son has a girlfriend with he/him pronouns, what do I do?"
The answer came back:
"There are many ways to be a women but your son might be gay"
The only recourse in my view is to stand up for yourself. You can be a man and wear a skirt or anything else. Any man who does this has to be very sure of himself. Being sure of yourself is in the long list of other things that constitutes being a man, so wear what you want. You decide what manhood means to you and don't let other force their view on you.

It opens up into a whole discussion about feminism and how badly women have been treated by men. This is true and and a lot has been done for women in this respect. Men however have not moved much in the last 100 years.

Is that the fault of men or expectations of the whole of society put on men?

[Mouse]

I had a conversation with a photographer who had just taken my image on Saturday night, in Shorditch. They wanted to know who I take as my guild and inspiration. I told him ME. I then explained about the small boy inside and fashion freedom. They thought I was great and loved my style.

But the big point is your own agency. Own who you are and stand up for yourself. Be a strong man and be true to yourself.

The Christian cult I grew up in, had some things right. They did not have paid ministers, since they wanted all members to read the bible and come to their own belief and relationship with God. Of course there were some men who got up and preached (women were excluded from preaching, except in Sunday school and women's groups) and there were elected men to run the admin. So Mouse did the reading and came up with the "incorrect" understanding, which was and is, incompatible with the cult, so he has never joined, to the disappointment of his family. Mrs Mouse is from a different, but similar Christian group which she had left before meeting me. So we were two black sheep, who found each other and married, which annoyed both our families. Today we are on good terms with all family members, on both sides, but it has taken time. I have to go in a work skirt for some members of my family and I wore a black Stumptown kilt for my aunts funeral. I wear skirts and adapt as needed.

My God is the Engineer/Designer who kicked big bang off in the beginning, setting up the universe and the evolution of the species to us and me. What I do is down to me and if there is an after life, I will be judged on me.

[GerdG]

"A woman must not wear men’s clothing, nor a man wear women’s clothing, for the LORD your God detests anyone who does this."

If anyone quotes that to you, find it in the Bible and point out that the same chapter requires tassels on all four corners of your garment. Check to see if they are obeying this command.

True.

We live in most respects so differently today.

And what men's clothing is, and what women's is, are man-defined and clothing per se also a function of place on earth, i.e. climatic-based and far away from the fig leaf mentioned in the Bible or the garments of animal skin made for them by God.

Shouldn't we still wear animal-skin clothes?

We men can wear skirts. Skirts make no man a woman. Like trousers make no woman a man.

We might also interpret "A woman must not wear men’s clothing, nor a man wear women’s clothing," as a metaphor, meaning we shall remain the ones we are (the ones God has created). If so, it must be OK also to be gay or lesbian or transgender, because we were born that way.

[Dust]

Fellow Catholic here. Just a layman putting in my two cents in, though... take it for what it's worth.

The lot of the time that I'm out and about in a skirt, it's a utility kilt of some sort. But I'm a trousers at work guy. I've got some family I don't wear skirts around as well. My wife's family is far more conservative than mine, but more okay with my kilts. Maybe it's a change thing (I was already wearing kilts when they meet me), or it's because the conservative folks grew up with the no pants (trousers) on girls rule. Or because my family is more conscious of the fact that we're in no way Scottish. Who knows...

For church, I usually wear pants (trousers). I'm not looking to be the center of attention at Mass, or shock the little old ladies. At least that's what I tell myself, maybe I'm just chicken. Also a jacket and tie fits right in, if that says anything about how conservative it is where I usually go. But there are a number of regulars that typically dress more casually.

I have worn Utilikilts to Mass, the old school Mocker style with internal pockets only. More often it's somewhere where I'm not going regularly, which lowers the stakes somehow in my head, I think. Most of this stuff is in our heads, anyway.

I actually have some Catholic friends who are disappointed when they see me in pants. I think it annoys some others, but they generally let it go. I also recently had someone after Mass ask if I was the one who was at someone else's place in a kilt. A mutual friend said that if someone there was in a kilt it was probably me.

I don't worry too much about Deuteronomy. I think it boils down to intent. Are you trying to look like a woman? Secret thrill of women's under things? No to both? Then you are probably okay. Most guys on this site are looking to expand men's options, not crossdress. Most church teaching on sin (and other things, too) takes our intentions into account.

God is not a jerk, but don't try to pay legalistic games with Him either. He knows what is in our hearts, better than even we do. Pray about it.

[Barleymower]

I don't worry too much about Deuteronomy. I think it boils down to intent. Are you trying to look like a woman? Secret thrill of women's under things? No to both? Then you are probably okay. Most guys on this site are looking to expand men's options, not crossdress. Most church teaching on sin (and other things, too) takes our intentions into account.

Acceptance of MIS is going to have to take onboard that there is no probllem with the sexes emulating each other. There are many ways to be a women. All things being equal the same must go for men.

[Dust]

I don't worry too much about Deuteronomy. I think it boils down to intent. Are you trying to look like a woman? Secret thrill of women's under things? No to both? Then you are probably okay. Most guys on this site are looking to expand men's options, not crossdress. Most church teaching on sin (and other things, too) takes our intentions into account.

Acceptance of MIS is going to have to take onboard that there is no problem with the sexes emulating each other. There are many ways to be a women. All things being equal the same must go for men.

Yes, there need to be more options for male behavior. And just like with women "borrowing" from men's styles, men can borrow from women while still being, and looking like, men.

When I say "look like" what I probably should have said is something more along the lines of "deceive people into thinking you are" a woman.

[STEVIE]

Well I guess this could be as sacrilegious as I am ever likely to get.

viewtopic.php?t=25531

This brings you to the record of an event last year and it was in a church turned pub which had been my Sunday School and my first encounter with organised religion.
A "school" where I learnt that there are many people who profess to know the mind of a god who actually may, or may not, exist.
In my case it was used to rule by fear, borne of ignorance and superstition, so that needed to be addressed.
Not only non-conforming attire in a very direct contradiction of those from my past who'd have me burn in hell for the privilege but broadcasting it as publicly and loudly as I possibly could.
If my destiny is to be eternal damnation I am absolutely certain that it will not be decided by any living being so I gladly take my chances thank you very much!
NB please don't cite the Bible as evidence, it is a series of stories written by the forerunners of the people who "educated" me on Sundays 60 years ago.
Steve

[Barleymower]

When I say "look like" what I probably should have said is something more along the lines of "deceive people into thinking you are" a woman.

Honestly I don't think many men want to deceive people into thinking they are women. I'm sure there are some out there just as much as some women want to deceive people into thinking they are men.
More likely they want do everything, wigs makeup etc. Why? Because the want to. Or maybe they think they have to, they can't just throw on a skirt and sit there in a dress, drinking Guinness and smoking a pipe.
There's a lot of people out there who want to be disgusted by such male behaviour but in a world of equality, if they want to wear the whole works, they should not meet any backlash. Women do it and it should be fine for men.