Skirts, tights, dresses and masculinity

[DrFishnets]

Me and my partner were talking about masculine and feminine men and during the conversation I asked her if she found feminine men attractive. Her reply was that she doesn’t and she prefers masculine men. I then asked her if she finds feminine men unattractive then what does she really think of me wearing skirts, tights and dresses. She said the reason she loves me wearing those items of clothing is because when I wear skirts, tights and dresses it enhances my masculinity. She loves the fact that I am extremely masculine yet I wear skirts, sheer tights and dresses that are designed for a feminine body. I found that interesting as I try to balance my masculinity with femininity with the clothes I wear.

[Uncle Al]

Interesting concepts that need to be explored.

Uncle Al

[jamie001]

I believe that masculinity and femininity are concepts that need to be erased from society. They are as unnecessary as gendered clothing! Both need to be eliminated. People should just be themself. Masculinity created the “Man Box” and needs to be eliminated.

[Grok]

One thing I have never asked a woman-do they find typical drab male attire as boring as I do? Must masculine=dull

A man into MIS really stands out in a crowd.

[JeffB1959]

One thing I have never asked a woman-do they find typical drab male attire as boring as I do? Must masculine=dull

A man into MIS really stands out in a crowd.

I've never asked a woman that question either, simply because I already know menswear is dull!

[STEVIE]

I think that we really have to get Susie's input on this one.
She has told me that she has no wish for me to go "En Drab" , for which I am most thankful.
Steve.

[Susie]

Well, since you asked nicely

Firstly, it will depend upon where a woman is in her cycle - sometimes prefering masculine men and sometimes not so much.

Secondly, there are some women who like to be centre of attention and you can't be that with a MIS, so drab is preferred.

In my opinion, a person who has taken care over their personal appearance and personal hygenie is always preferable to someone who hasn't.

I would refer you to my post 'Embarrassing Men'.

I think ZZ Top said it best - "every girl crazy about a sharp dressed man" but it doesn't matter whether that's in trousers or dress or skirt.

[STEVIE]

,,,,,and here is Susie's thread that she alluded to
viewtopic.php?p=263595&hilit=embarrassing+men#p263595
Steve

[steamman]

I believe that masculinity and femininity are concepts that need to be erased from society. They are as unnecessary as gendered clothing! Both need to be eliminated. People should just be themself. Masculinity created the “Man Box” and needs to be eliminated.

I completely agree with you. Masculinity and femininity are social constructs, there is nothing natural about them. Because as soon as you ask that question, people have no answer. The issue over the last 200 years is that clothing has been explicitly linked to it. In other words, gender expression = biological sex. People aren’t like that and forcing people into one box or the other when you are born is where the trouble starts! Nobody agrees to these “rules”, they are imposed. And all for what exactly? Fortunately, we are moving to a world where freedom of expression and choice is now becoming dominant, and I suspect gendered clothing is going to disappear within a few years. The main driver will be economics, not ideology. It’s just more efficient to make clothes by body shape as gender is a terrible proxy. It’s only a matter of time. But yes, you are absolutely right: people should fundamentally just be who they are without these stupid labels.

[jamie001]

I believe that masculinity and femininity are concepts that need to be erased from society. They are as unnecessary as gendered clothing! Both need to be eliminated. People should just be themself. Masculinity created the “Man Box” and needs to be eliminated.

I completely agree with you. Masculinity and femininity are social constructs, there is nothing natural about them. Because as soon as you ask that question, people have no answer. The issue over the last 200 years is that clothing has been explicitly linked to it. In other words, gender expression = biological sex. People aren’t like that and forcing people into one box or the other when you are born is where the trouble starts! Nobody agrees to these “rules”, they are imposed. And all for what exactly? Fortunately, we are moving to a world where freedom of expression and choice is now becoming dominant, and I suspect gendered clothing is going to disappear within a few years. The main driver will be economics, not ideology. It’s just more efficient to make clothes by body shape as gender is a terrible proxy. It’s only a matter of time. But yes, you are absolutely right: people should fundamentally just be who they are without these stupid labels.

Steamman,

Thank you for this insightful response, but I have to disagree slightly. Here in the United States, due to some changes that I am not allowed to mention that occurred within the past 15 months, we are moving backward at an unbelievable rate. Gender nonconforming folks are losing rights and employment protections. They can now be fired for being gender nonconforming. If you live in a state that does not have protections for gender nonconforming individuals, you can be fired for wearing a skirt to work! Yes, this is now happening in America and it is worsening on a monthly basis as existing protective laws are rescinded and new restrictive laws are passed. As CR stated very eloquently, we are moving back to the 1950 and the days of Father Knows Best. Fasten your seatbelts as it is going to be a very bumpy ride and may ultimately be the end of our men in skirts movement.

[steamman]

Yes, the situation in the US is hugely concerning. That said, the rest of the world will continue to move forward as it is doing, not just in this area but in others, e.g renewable energy.

It might not be much comfort right now, but eventually the US will emerge out the other side of this dark period. The orange idiot is now in deep trouble with Iran and could be his undoing.

[GoSkirtGo]

I partially disagree with Jamie. Most of the "rollback" is not targeting gender-non-conforming expression specifically, but rather definitions on sex to restrict trans people from sex-segregated spaces (and restricting "medical transition" of minors or government cuts on subsidizing such transitions on any age). For example, despite all of Trump's actions, trans federal employees (at least from the latest I've heard) can still dress in accordance with their gender identity (but not use restrooms, locker rooms, etc. as such, nor does their insurance pay for hormones, gender reassignment surgery, etc.). Most of us in the MIS community still use men's restrooms, have IDs with a male gender marker, and (if involved in sports) play on men's teams.

Yes there have been a few target cases where our community may be affected (e.g. "drag bans") but for the most part men wearing "feminine" clothing (but not actually trying to "be" a woman) isn't their concern. The federal anti-discrimination laws haven't changed nor has the precedent been overturned (gender identity and expression as well as sexual orientation were never specifically protected - the precedent was based on an extension of "sex" discrimination); it's just that if a trans person wants to use federal law to challenge discrimination they're for now on their own legally speaking (instead of the EEOC stepping in to help them in court). (That may or may not affect our community - remember how most of us don't want to be conflated with transgender people.)