Son gives up skirts, daughter in combats and dress that became a pencil skirt

[Myopic Bookworm]

My elder son announced that he was non-binary when he was about 16 and a half, and started growing his hair long. We spoke to the school, and he experimented with wearing a skirt in school and using a non-gendered bathroom. But he was not bothered about pronouns, and kept the same teenager hoodie and jeans kit when out of school. An experiment with casual skirts seems to have been abandoned, and he didn't seem interested in clothing generally. (He did suggest an alternative preferred name, but that was so clearly female-marked rather than gender-neutral that I'm afraid we more or less recoiled from the idea.)

Now at university, he has (without telling us) started trying out entry-level gender-affirming hormones. I have absolutely no idea what he normally wears, as he has always defaulted to the jeans and hoodie when we see him, and I don't know how open he is about his non-binary identity at college. Or whether that is a stepping-stone to coming out as fully trans, which would be a challenge, but he's technically an adult so we'll go with it if necessary.

[SatinDea]

Myopic Bookworm - your post resonates with me. What you said is almost exactly where my son was when at University. He just wears jeans and a hoody when he meets me and his mum but he has long hair, painted nails, female earrings and has looked at gender changing processes, how to do it, how long it will take and what it might cost. He has just graduated from Uni and got his first job. He is nearly 30 years old. His University friend, who a few years ago I would have said was a young man is “she” and she is going through the process now. We have spoken to our son about him being fully trans and he is up for whatever that might involve.

I’ve never seen him in a skirt or female clothing. I’ve joked about me wearing a skirt and he just said “go for it” I’ve told him that I wear tights and want to wear skirts. He is ok with that . I have been pretty regimented as he has grown up and I wanted to show him I’ve changed and a little bit more towards his way of thinking. However he speaks a different language to me. It’s hard on his mum and thats making my own adoption of female clothing more difficult. But I think it’s a new world out there for our boys and us if they choose a difficult path I will support my son as much as I can.

[crfriend]

[...] your post resonates with me. What you said is almost exactly where my son was when at University. He just wears jeans and a hoody when he meets me and his mum but he has long hair, painted nails,[...]

Attribution deliberately left out as this is starting to look like a universal issue.

What has happened to Occam's Razor -- a theory which states that the simplest answer to a problem is likely the probable one? Why do we insist on ascribing what might be a simple stylistic choice or a rebellion against the drabness of male fashion to sexual deviancy? Why do we perpetuate the views of the Charlie Kirk world? It's not doing anybody any good.

Sure, there may be complex underlying reasons, but what happens if it's actually simple? Do we need to condemn the person in question to future trouble? I posit no, and have done so for many years.

Or am I just one lone voice crying in the wilderness? If so, I can deal with that. I hold many "unpopular" opinions, what's one more?

Do we really want to cement the "Father Knows Best" mentality that only women wear skirts (they don't and haven't for years)? That any man who strays more than 0.5 degrees from the centreline of opinion is a deviant? That anybody who rebels against arbitrary and capricious "rules" is sick? Really? Is that what we want? If so, then let's keep on that path, look down, and plod forward like pack animals -- for that's what we are in that mode. I'd hope better.

Recall the wisdom from the 1960s -- "Question Authority." -- now seemingly long forgotten. We need to revive that. Diversity of viewpoint and attitude is important for a society's health; we seem to be sacrificing that over memes from the past. Resist. Else we're going to become Mao's China.

[Myopic Bookworm]

I think you are misreading. The issue for some is not that skirts imply femininity, homosexuality, or deviancy, but that young people who are questioning their gender identity do *not* seem naturally to regard wearing skirts as a part of that. (And why should they, since many of the girls wear jeans and hoodies too?)

[crfriend]

I think you are misreading. The issue for some is not that skirts imply femininity, homosexuality, or deviancy, but that young people who are questioning their gender identity do *not* seem naturally to regard wearing skirts as a part of that. (And why should they, since many of the girls wear jeans and hoodies too?)

However, bearing in mind that current "thinking" has formed the absolute and unequivocal conclusion that skirt==female inevitably contaminates the issue and that the use of skirts by the trans-* crowd as a signifier further contaminates the perception problem only amplifies the problem when it comes to the (rather uninformed) masses when it comes to guys. No matter which way we turn we lose.

Is it any wonder that most abandon any such thoughts long before deciding on executing (which, itself, can be traumatic as evidenced by some of the stories here). Most, I'd posit never dare take that first step that has terrified most of us.

[Barleymower]

My elder son announced that he was non-binary when he was about 16 and a half, and started growing his hair long. We spoke to the school, and he experimented with wearing a skirt in school and using a non-gendered bathroom. But he was not bothered about pronouns, and kept the same teenager hoodie and jeans kit when out of school. An experiment with casual skirts seems to have been abandoned, and he didn't seem interested in clothing generally. (He did suggest an alternative preferred name, but that was so clearly female-marked rather than gender-neutral that I'm afraid we more or less recoiled from the idea.)

Now at university, he has (without telling us) started trying out entry-level gender-affirming hormones. I have absolutely no idea what he normally wears, as he has always defaulted to the jeans and hoodie when we see him, and I don't know how open he is about his non-binary identity at college. Or whether that is a stepping-stone to coming out as fully trans, which would be a challenge, but he's technically an adult so we'll go with it if necessary.

I have no wish to pry MB but if it were me I would keep trying to talk to him and be supportive of his life choices. If I can persuade him that I'm on his side, I might have some chance of having some influence.

[Jim]

However, bearing in mind that current "thinking" has formed the absolute and unequivocal conclusion that skirt==female inevitably contaminates the issue and that the use of skirts by the trans-* crowd as a signifier further contaminates the perception problem only amplifies the problem when it comes to the (rather uninformed) masses when it comes to guys. No matter which way we turn we lose.

I don't recall any interaction with a man that indicated that he thought me feminine, even though I'm almost always in a skirt or dress.

I think women have been a bit more open in talking with me about clothing or female medical issues than I remember from my pre-skirt days.

[crfriend]

I don't recall any interaction with a man that indicated that he thought me feminine, even though I'm almost always in a skirt or dress.

That's because of the interaction, which overrides a passive observation. I'll bet that you weren't behaving in a feminine manner (women don't any more, anyway) and I'll bet you that you were using your normal male voice. Actions really do "speak louder than words", and that's one of the reasons I encourage honesty and simply "getting out there" to prove the point and disrupt the stereotype. The more the skirt==female prototype gets scrambled the easier leaving the front door becomes for all of us.

I think women have been a bit more open in talking with me about clothing or female medical issues than I remember from my pre-skirt days.

I suspect they're a bit disarmed by the notion of a man in a skirt, and may be curious about what makes you "tick". I've run into that a large number of times, and I am definitely approached vastly more often when I'm wearing a skirt than if I'm in standard male drab. I consider this a win, even though I know I don't have a snowball's chance of a deep relationship.

[Faldaguy]

I've known a couple of MTF trans folks who wondered after surgeries if perhaps all they had needed were some nice female dress/skirt outfits; but they had not experimented much with "female" clothes in public before transitioning, or if they did, it was 'in drag' rather than a simple, I like skirts, and wore them with confidence -- had they done that, I wonder if they would have found contentment as many of us on this site have -- we are fine with being men, but not boxed in by the approved, bi-furcated, dull wardrobe granted the Marlboro man.

Clearly a couple of outfits does not fulfill the needs of many in the trans community; but I do wonder if a good many of us would be happier with mere tolerance for our chosen fabric, attitudes, hair, nails, words, professions, et al. Boxes only serve those who want to control us!

[Ozdelights]

I-- we are fine with being men, but not boxed in by the approved, bi-furcated, dull wardrobe granted the Marlboro man.

Clearly a couple of outfits does not fulfill the needs of many in the trans community; but I do wonder if a good many of us would be happier with mere tolerance for our chosen fabric, attitudes, hair, nails, words, professions, et al. Boxes only serve those who want to control us!

I accept that there are people who experience gender dysphoria. I have also seen young men who have discovered that they don't have to be female to participate in the clothes and activities traditionally reserved for females. Likewise I have seen some who have regretted going through transition.

[STEVIE]

viewtopic.php?t=24377 That's Ma Boy!

This is a thread that I kicked off in 2023, in light of the latest comments here, I believe there is relevance.
One thing I'll add that while I am certainly not transgendered, my alternative name, Sara, is very important to me.
Steve.

[Susie]

You don't have to like what path your child takes - and there are much worse ones than this.

Pull up your big girl pants, call them by their preferred name, apologise for upsetting them with your negative response (no justification or explanation at this stage, this is about their feelings, not yours) engaging with and supporting your child is more important.

I sincerely hope you can manage to repair your relationship before the rift is too great.

Keep communicating and later there will probably be a time to discuss your feelings with them - now is not that time.

Good Luck.

[crfriend]

Keep communicating and later there will probably be a time to discuss your feelings with them - now is not that time.

Indeed, we tend to keep telling ourselves that, but time, events, and mortality eventually get in the way of it.

I always had a very good relationship with my father, but he never learnt about my penchant for skirts before he was gone. My relationship with my grandfather ended one afternoon when he absolutely savaged me about being queer -- in spite of his knowledge that I was building a fully heterosexual relationship with my late ex- that lasted 27 years, and I turned on my heel and walked away; the next time I saw him he was in a box. My grandmother ("she who did the heavy lifting") and I had a lovely relationship, but that was cut short by her passing in early 2005 before I "went public" with my skirts, so she never knew. Time moves on and does not wait for anybody,

Thus, make the best of the here and now; it may be the last chance you get. So, seize the day; you might not get another -- or the other party. Life is short -- and subject to surprises.

My main worry is that all this "non-binary"/trans-*" stuff is an over-reaction to the overly-rigid boundaries that are artificially placed upon us. The tight little "boxes" as it were. And what happens if that's actually the case? Would not the suffering it causes to all involved be an absolute waste?

Quite unlike Steve and Sara, and lots of the other guys in the Skirt Cafe community, I don't have an "alter ego" or a "feminine side"; I am, and always have been, an integrated whole -- a complete individual, complete with all the complexities that go with that. Astonishingly, no-one has ever been able to put a label on that, including a couple of mental-health professionals that are supposed to know this stuff. To the world, I'm not known as "the guy in a skirt"; I'm known simply as "Carl" which is right and proper.

Work on the relationships. Because someday it is going to be too late.

Good luck.

Indeed!

[DrFishnets]

Family is a tough one when it comes to MIS as I know too well. I think it’s to do with being blood related. It can be difficult for people with the same blood ties as you to accept you as a MIS. I had this problem with both my dad and my auntie. No doubt my brother and sister would have the same feelings about me wearing skirts but I never see them and haven’t seen them in the last 10 years. My mother who I was very close too would probably find it hard to accept me wearing skirts but at least she would give me some support. However she sadly died 12 years ago and I really miss her.

I have just come to the conclusion that I am happy and content wearing skirts and I don’t find it weird and that’s all that matters and my partner of 26 years supports me and tells me I look great in skirts and dresses. Also, I get admiration from people at my guitar and sewing groups plus a few strangers in town who like what I wear.

[MrSoapsud]

My main worry is that all this "non-binary"/trans-*" stuff is an over-reaction to the overly-rigid boundaries that are artificially placed upon us. The tight little "boxes" as it were. And what happens if that's actually the case? Would not the suffering it causes to all involved be an absolute waste?

Except that, as I understand it, (and as is the case of one child of some friends of mine) BM's child who is non-binary used to be "female" and thus not so limited by the overly-rigid boundaries or tight little boxes to which you refer?