Son gives up skirts, daughter in combats and dress that became a pencil skirt

[Barleymower]

Well I raised my son to wear skirts if he wants to. He wanted to and he did for a while but senior school came along and my daughter told him if he wore a skirt to school then he would attract attention. He asked if any boys wore skirts and she said yes but they are trans. He said then he would just wear them in town, again she said it will get back to school so expect attention.
He stopped wearing skirts. He also recently said that I forced him to wear skirts. At least the whole family said 'whar!?".
My daughter has completely stopped wearing skirts and dresses. She goes everywhere in combat shorts or combat trousers.

At least they were free to choose. Oddly it is not a big deal with them. They, like most women eventually chose trousers.

I bought a dress last week. Of course I can't get it on. So I'm making a skirt from it. A fun project. It, by it's nature will be a pencil skirt which will be a first for me.

[STEVIE]

A fun project. It, by it's nature will be a pencil skirt which will be a first for me.

Good luck!

[jamie001]

Well I raised my son to wear skirts if he wants to. He wanted to and he did for a while but senior school came along and my daughter told him if he wore a skirt to school then he would attract attention. He asked if any boys wore skirts and she said yes but they are trans. He said then he would just wear them in town, again she said it will get back to school so expect attention.
He stopped wearing skirts. He also recently said that I forced him to wear skirts. At least the whole family said 'whar!?".
My daughter has completely stopped wearing skirts and dresses. She goes everywhere in combat shorts or combat trousers.

At least they were free to choose. Oddly it is not a big deal with them. They, like most women eventually chose trousers.

I bought a dress last week. Of course I can't get it on. So I'm making a skirt from it. A fun project. It, by it's nature will be a pencil skirt which will be a first for me.

Barley I disagree with the statement that “at least they were free to choose”. Only your daughter has freedom of choice and can wear combat trousers with impunity. If you son were to choose skirts in high school, he would most likely be ostracized!! That is not freedom! Women have fashion freedom, men have sh1t and it is getting worse.

[crfriend]

Well I raised my son to wear skirts if he wants to. He wanted to and he did for a while but senior school came along and my daughter told him if he wore a skirt to school then he would attract attention. He asked if any boys wore skirts and she said yes but they are trans. He said then he would just wear them in town, again she said it will get back to school so expect attention.
He stopped wearing skirts.

I respectfully contest your assertion of "freedom to choose", Clearly in this case he was heavily influenced by your daughter's deployment of the "trans" slur (a variant on the "gay"/"queer" slur). The deck was stacked. He was essentially told that his behaviour will make it impossible to find a female companion -- which, to most teenage boys, is effectively a death sentence. He never had a chance.

He also recently said that I forced him to wear skirts. At least the whole family said 'whar!?".

Challenge him openly in front of other family members on the matter and have the thing out that way. He should not be attempting to offload "blame" on you. He's channelling his sister. It's important that he internalise that blaming others improperly will not do.

My daughter has completely stopped wearing skirts and dresses. She goes everywhere in combat shorts or combat trousers.

Typical. And nobody bats an eyelash.

At least they were free to choose. Oddly it is not a big deal with them. They, like most women eventually chose trousers.

No, not really. You attempted to make it look that way, but Father Knows Best and "society" overrode freedom. It usually does unless it benefits some special party.

Best of luck with the sewing project!

[Stu]

He asked if any boys wore skirts and she said yes but they are trans. He said then he would just wear them in town, again she said it will get back to school so expect attention. He stopped wearing skirts.

So he probably WANTS to wear skirts but he is afraid of the reaction of others - which proves you didn't force him. It also shows that not wearing skirts is contrary to his own preference, but the price of exercising his preference is to be ostracised. In addition, this highlights another problem which has been mentioned on here, i.e. that the skirt is still seen as a signifier of being female and that's something some of us have been wanting to eliminate - or at least ameliorate.

So males can't wear skirts because they fear being ostracised. Females are choosing to not wear skirts because they prefer jeans/trousers/leggings. The way things are going, the only people who will be wearing skirts are trans girls/women.

[STEVIE]

The way things are going, the only people who will be wearing skirts are trans girls/women.

And Me!

Steve.

[crfriend]

And I as well, at least some of the time. I've put too much time, money, effort, and credibility into this to just throw it all aside.

In short, I'm not going down without a fight.

[Mouse]

The way things are going, the only people who will be wearing skirts are trans girls/women.

And Me!

Steve.

And Me!...

[crfriend]

So males can't wear skirts because they fear being ostracised. Females are choosing to not wear skirts because they prefer jeans/trousers/leggings. The way things are going, the only people who will be wearing skirts are trans girls/women.

If that sentiment "wins" "in the wild" then the fascists and "Father Knows Best" morons will have won hands down and the rest of us may as will just give up in disgust.

Barleymower's son was going to learn that eventually by way of interaction with the Unwashed Masses, but BM's daughter jumped the queue and went for the jugular with the "deviant" slur. We don't know why, but I'm fairly certain control was one factor. Controlling others makes some types feel good (this is one of the reasons we have laws and cops). I'd be tempted to lean on the daughter for exerting control over her brother; we're not supposed to do that other than in parent/child settings.

[STEVIE]

Carl,
I actually believe that you are wrong about Barleymower's daughter and her motives.
I have met them and my take is sister's concern for her brother not control nor an intended slur.
Fact is she is right, he'd have set himself up as a prime target for all kinds of abusive bullying.
Had she wished to see him harmed, all she had to do was give tacit encouragement and sit back to watch the torment.
Frankly, my own sisters would quite likely have done that to me.
Perhaps Barleymower should be the man to really voice an opinion on this.
Steve.

[crfriend]

Fact is she is right, he'd have set himself up as a prime target for all kinds of abusive bullying.

Of course she is, and we all know that from hard experience. We also know that it's not going to get better with time, so unless we steel ourselves for he treatment we will receive (likely a life of loneliness) we can't be really ready for the idiocy that the world expresses much of the time.

I'm pretty sure the rest of the family realises it as well.

And, yes, best let the man speak for himself and his family. I'll climb down. It's been a bad few years, and my nerves are frayed thin.

[Barleymower]

Steve, The skirt is coming on. I have cut the top off and I'm tidying up the waist before sewing on a waist band. I've also let out some pleats so I can breath a bit. It will never be at all flowy so I'm looking forward to the result. Photos to follow.

Barley I disagree with the statement that “at least they were free to choose”. Only your daughter has freedom of choice and can wear combat trousers with impunity. If you son were to choose skirts in high school, he would most likely be ostracized!! That is not freedom! Women have fashion freedom, men have sh1t and it is getting worse.

Jamie, she was non-binary from the start and she is still discovering who she is. Too much freedom in this respect may be a bad thing. For example a lot of girls go down the trans route only to find that being a guy is not the Pizza party they thought it would be. They transition back and are a bit damaged in the process. Essentially she was letting him know about what she went through as a non-binary person.
He said to me in his skirt wearing days that he didn't like the stares. Women live with staring everyday, it's terrible being stared at constantly until nobody bothers to stare at you. There's no easy path, I think.
He (my son) is very much alternative with a My Chem hoody, long shoulder length hair and rings. Crossing the gender boundary is a different matter for people. I do it but I'm too old to care.

I respectfully contest your assertion of "freedom to choose", Clearly in this case he was heavily influenced by your daughter's deployment of the "trans" slur (a variant on the "gay"/"queer" slur). The deck was stacked. He was essentially told that his behaviour will make it impossible to find a female companion -- which, to most teenage boys, is effectively a death sentence. He never had a chance.

Challenge him openly in front of other family members on the matter and have the thing out that way. He should not be attempting to offload "blame" on you. He's channeling his sister. It's important that he internalise that blaming others improperly will not do.

No not really. You attempted to make it look that way, but Father Knows Best and "society" overrode freedom. It usually does unless it benefits some special party.

I can see how it would look that way, she is a strong character and heavily influences her brothers. She probably did have some bearing on his decision. Mostly though he did not like the staring from people when he wore a skirt.
I did challenge him openly! it was utter nonsense.
I think here in the UK it might be the other way round. Women very often rule the roost and men keep the quiet for fear of incurring her anger. It's my view that that some external force is keeping men firmly in their place. They are not worried about the women so they are allowed more freedom.

So he probably WANTS to wear skirts but he is afraid of the reaction of others - which proves you didn't force him. It also shows that not wearing skirts is contrary to his own preference, but the price of exercising his preference is to be ostracised. In addition, this highlights another problem which has been mentioned on here, i.e. that the skirt is still seen as a signifier of being female and that's something some of us have been wanting to eliminate - or at least ameliorate.

So males can't wear skirts because they fear being ostracised. Females are choosing to not wear skirts because they prefer jeans/trousers/leggings. The way things are going, the only people who will be wearing skirts are trans girls/women.

All of what you say is true Stu except the last sentence. I think there is a growing population of men who are prepared to express themselves openly. If the current suppression of men continues there is liable to be more of a rebellion.

Barleymower's son was going to learn that eventually by way of interaction with the Unwashed Masses, but BM's daughter jumped the queue and went for the jugular with the "deviant" slur. We don't know why, but I'm fairly certain control was one factor. Controlling others makes some types feel good (this is one of the reasons we have laws and cops). I'd be tempted to lean on the daughter for exerting control over her brother; we're not supposed to do that other than in parent/child settings.

Steady Carl, she was concerned for him and was letting him know what she went through. I really don't believe she wanted any control on his dress sense. At least I hope not. From my own perspective I did not want him to go in on day one in a skirt. I wanted him to gain some knowledge on the how school works. If after a few months he decided to skirt it in there I would respect that. Instead he has chosen a alternative route. He has established himself and has a good group of friends.
On our meetup in Birmingham I saw quite a few 'alternatives'. Ranging from wigs, to strawberry hats and bright red shoes, flowery dungerees etc. But very few skirts, the skirt is a taboo and no mistake.

[Barleymower]

Carl,
I actually believe that you are wrong about Barleymower's daughter and her motives.
I have met them and my take is sister's concern for her brother not control nor an intended slur.
Fact is she is right, he'd have set himself up as a prime target for all kinds of abusive bullying.
Had she wished to see him harmed, all she had to do was give tacit encouragement and sit back to watch the torment.
Frankly, my own sisters would quite likely have done that to me.
Perhaps Barleymower should be the man to really voice an opinion on this.
Steve.

Bang on Steve

[STEVIE]

Carl,
My one regret is that I'd have been in the same situation nigh on 60 years ago.
Nothing has changed.
Steve.

[crfriend]

My one regret is that I'd have been in the same situation nigh on 60 years ago.
Nothing has changed.

No, nothing has really -- and that's what pains me. I witnessed the progress that was made in the '60s and the '70s on this front, and saw it all snatched away in the rightward lurch that convulsed pretty much the entire world at about the time of the Iranian revolution. I recall being massively torqued off about that (recall that the thought of skirts had already occurred to me) at the time, but a risk/reward analysis provided the predicted results and indicated it'd make my main thrust much harder, so I pushed the notion into the back of my mind and tried to forget it as I was working on kickstarting a career with to technical backing of my family (medical and liberal arts folks; they meant well, but could not help in the direction I was going).

Over the intervening decades, the only thing that changed was my standing in my chosen career, and I'd developed a solid name and reputation for myself. Only with that feather in my cap did I ever dare to transgress the fashion boundary and try skirts after that very long wait. I'm glad I did, although it upsets me greatly that my women friends who were entirely supportive three years ago are now in the "anti-" camp (and that's down to societal changes that bear down on all of us); they worry about me, because they know I'm "on the sensitive side". However, the confidence in defying the "Norms [0] of society" gave me a sense of peace that astounds many around me, and more than several have commented that they've "never met someone so comfortable in his own skin" than I am.

I said I'd climb down regarding Barleymower's family, and I'm going to keep to that; his situation is (and has to be) completely different from mine, and I have no desire to step on toes needlessly.


[0] The "norms of society" is a well-known idiom, but I was playing with it a moment ago and transforming it into "The Norms of" (as if in using a name) led to the notion of "Norm" referring to "Normal" instead of "Norman". Now, I have no gripe with the name of "Norman" (I know a few), but was based in head by the term of Normal (as in, "Can't you be more normal?") which I take as a massive insult because that means reducing myself to the level of average an mediocre. Karl Menninger best summed it up, and I've quoted him before. I love playing with the language; in fact, if I washed out of technology I would have fallen back to what all my school advisors were saying all along, "That one's an English major,"