Experience in the Loo

[Stu]

My wife and I - plus miniature schnauzer pup - visited a country park in Nottinghamshire today in the area of the famous Sherwood Forest. While there, I called in the toilet and used a urinal. It was busy, but not queuing. I was just getting ready to walk out when I was shocked to see a man and child walk in - and the child appeared to be a girl, aged 9 or 10. I assume she was a girl because she had dusky pink leggings on and a thick-knit woollen hat in the same colour with a large fluffy pompom on top (not just a small bobble as boys have) and her long, blond curled hair fell a long way down below the hat and something sparkly around her wrist. If I am using a men's facility, I don't want females in there - end of. I was half-minded to challenge her father when it occurred to me that I was making assumptions that she was a girl and I would look pretty stupid if the father had told me the child was a boy (true or not), so I just walked out. Assuming the child was a girl, which she probably was, then taking her in there was rude and irresponsible. There were no staff on hand to whom I could mention this, so I let it go. This shows, in microcosm, one of the many problems surrounding the current issues vwhen talking about "women's spaces" and trans people.

[Myopic Bookworm]

I have occasionally seen explicit age limits for cross-sex loos or changing rooms: the one I remember stated 7 as the oldest child allowed in the "other" changing room with a parent.

[phathack]

My comments on the restroom issue are that, in the case of only two gendered restrooms, the men's room is the one a trans person should use, with a few exceptions. In the case of a small child, I leave that up to the parent to decide.

[SatinDea]

I was a member of a golf club just to use the leisure facilities and one day I was in the shower and a father brought his daughter around 7 or 8 into the shower. I was naked as were they. No-one seemed to mind. I’ve also seen girls around 10 topless around the outside pool at the same club. No-one appears to care. Similar in Portugal at a hotel pool and on French beach. In France it is quite common for the women to use the cubicle whilst the men are using the urinals. I don’t see a problem.

[Stu]

I was a member of a golf club just to use the leisure facilities and one day I was in the shower and a father brought his daughter around 7 or 8 into the shower. I was naked as were they. No-one seemed to mind. I’ve also seen girls around 10 topless around the outside pool at the same club. No-one appears to care. Similar in Portugal at a hotel pool and on French beach. In France it is quite common for the women to use the cubicle whilst the men are using the urinals. I don’t see a problem.

How would many women feel if a mother brought an 8-year old son into the women's shower area? I think they would be uncomfortable with that just as I was today. Women's spaces should be protected and so should men's spaces. Different countries have different cultural norms and sensibilities tied to these norms. We have ours and I would like them to be respected.

[Faldaguy]

I was a member of a golf club just to use the leisure facilities and one day I was in the shower and a father brought his daughter around 7 or 8 into the shower. I was naked as were they. No-one seemed to mind. I’ve also seen girls around 10 topless around the outside pool at the same club. No-one appears to care. Similar in Portugal at a hotel pool and on French beach. In France it is quite common for the women to use the cubicle whilst the men are using the urinals. I don’t see a problem.

How would many women feel if a mother brought an 8-year old son into the women's shower area? I think they would be uncomfortable with that just as I was today. Women's spaces should be protected and so should men's spaces. Different countries have different cultural norms and sensibilities tied to these norms. We have ours and I would like them to be respected.

This is in "off topic" so I suppose it may be granted space, but it could quickly become a sordid distraction. In the two above comments we see something of the cultural separation of orthodoxy Stu often brings to the forum; and a more tolerant European view. Across the globe there are a lot more dimensions. If this is going to be pursued, I'll toss out that I think our social anxiety around having a couple of fundamental differences in body parts creates far more problems for humans than simply accepting we are all 'normal', function essentially the same, and the 'secrecy' only exacerbates a slew of sexual/social problems. What a huge waste of time, energy, and money is being expended upon all the "bathroom" rules. Let's use personality and our decorative body coverings for art and allure, not for pernicious sniping.

[Stu]

This is in "off topic" so I suppose it may be granted space, but it could quickly become a sordid distraction. In the two above comments we see something of the cultural separation of orthodoxy Stu often brings to the forum; and a more tolerant European view.

I'm not sure why it should be considered a sordid distraction. People can agree or disagree. I am also not sure what you mean by "cultural separation of orthodoxy". Strange phrase. As for a "more tolerant European view" - first, where in Europe? There is no common culture across Europe as you imply. Countries like Ireland, Malta, Poland and Hungary have pretty much the same ideas on what is appropriate in public as the UK.

Across the globe there are a lot more dimensions. If this is going to be pursued, I'll toss out that I think our social anxiety around having a couple of fundamental differences in body parts creates far more problems for humans than simply accepting we are all 'normal', function essentially the same, and the 'secrecy' only exacerbates a slew of sexual/social problems.

We're not the same, which is why my local gym has a men's changing, showers, sauna and toilets and separate facilities for women. I prefer that and, in my experience, the vast majority of women prefer that. Women's spaces and all that.

What a huge waste of time, energy, and money is being expended upon all the "bathroom" rules.

For bathrooms, I think we need to go down the unisex route, where toilets (e.g. public ones, or designed for users or employees of buildings) consist of fully enclosed cubicles so the user has complete privacy. We had those in the university where I used to work and they were perfectly fine - and nobody seemed to mind them. Dismissing someone's insistence on privacy when using a toilet etc is completely unreasonable.

[denimini]

Different countries have different cultural norms and sensibilities tied to these norms. We have ours and I would like them to be respected.

We?

[Stu]

Different countries have different cultural norms and sensibilities tied to these norms. We have ours and I would like them to be respected.

We?

I was responding, as a British person, to "a more tolerant European view", so the pronoun "we" referred to "we British people".

[kingfish]

Around my part(s) it's not uncommon to see children being escorted/chaperoned to the loo reserved for the sex of that adult. My mother did the same with me until I was old enough to go into the men's room and "take care of business" on my own. And that was in the 1970s

[Stu]

Around my part(s) it's not uncommon to see children being escorted/chaperoned to the loo reserved for the sex of that adult. My mother did the same with me until I was old enough to go into the men's room and "take care of business" on my own. And that was in the 1970s

It was the same where I lived, but it only applied to very small children - like up to about age 4. Sorry, but I object to 6 or 7 year old girl being in the men's facility I am using, letv alone one even older.

[Jim]

Sorry, but I object to 6 or 7 year old girl being in the men's facility I am using, letv alone one even older.

But, sorry, some other men object to you being in the men's facility wearing a skirt or dress. Let's be tolerant of others' choices if we want them to be tolerant of ours.

[Stu]

Sorry, but I object to 6 or 7 year old girl being in the men's facility I am using, letv alone one even older.

But, sorry, some other men object to you being in the men's facility wearing a skirt or dress. Let's be tolerant of others' choices if we want them to be tolerant of ours.

No. There is a difference. The men's room has a sign on the door saying MEN or GENTS - and we are entitled to believe that only males are permitted to be in such facilities. The same applies to women's spaces - or would you deny them that?

[crfriend]

I think that one problem we're having is that we're having this discussion across multiple cultures and the viewpoints of those cultures.

I tend to draw distinctions based on intents. What is the intent of having a child present in an otherwise adult setting? At ages up to about 4 or 5, I can't really see anybody causing a ruckus about a child in either rest room unless the child is being unruly or undisciplined in its behaviour. Anything beyond puberty is obviously a no-go zone -- save for those countries which have no single-sex places for men (e.g. the USA; men's-only spaces have been effectively outlawed for years leaving only 'unisex" or women's-only spaces (to "protect" the "fairer sex")).

Thus, back to intent. If there's no intent to cause trouble, then it should be a case of "No harm no foul" and just be dropped. If the act was intended to cause trouble, then the individual who committed it (or sanctioned it) should be censured.

[Uncle Al]

Alternate point of view - - - -

A father(divorced?) and young daughter are on an outing together, having a good time.
The father needs to utilize facilities to relieve 'mother nature'.
For his child's safety, he takes her into said facilities, to prevent a kidnapping.

Now - what is more important - - your perceived self importance of being subjected
to a 'female' in the men's room, or, the safety of a small child


NOTE: I am an only child. I was 3 or 4 years old and remember when shopping, my mother took me into
"The Ladies Room" when I needed to relieve myself. My father worked construction sites, many miles from
home. He could not commute to the job site on a daily basis. When I turned 8 years old, my parents decided
to get a mobile home and move, with my father, to the different job sites. This was to help get the 'father figure'
more into my life.

Uncle Al