Eliminating the waistline: avoiding an unflattering optical illusion in male skirts

[robehickman]

By 'waistline', I mean the horizontal line that manifests between a top and bottom garment if they are strongly contrasting in colour.

It is widely known that horizontal lines create a 'widening' illusion. This can be problematic because male torso’s are typically proportionally wide to begin with, and generally lack substantial difference between the waist and hips. If that is combined with a widening illusion the effect is to make the torso look even wider.

For some reason, that is particularly noticeable when men wear skirts, and to me personally, rarely looks flattering to the person.

Eliminating the hard horizontal line at the waist often looks much more natural to my eye. That can be done by choosing top / bottom garments that are the same colour, wearing a one-piece dress / robe type garment, or layering things over the waistline to obscure it, like a hip scarf or open vest / jacket.

[Mouse]

I sometimes use a corset or wide belt to give shape to the waist. Lately I have also been experimenting with having a higher waist, since I bought some short jackets.

The other thing to consider is how tight the upper body is covered. There is a big difference to wearing a tight leotard to a normal fitting T-shirt.

The other problem I have is my tummy, wanting to bulge out over my waist. This can be fixed with a wide belt or corset. I have also worked to reduce the volume of the tummy to also get around these problems.

[Modoc]

I have worn dresses a few times and am inclined to wear them even more. Something mid-calf length, with no or minimal cinching at the waist, works really well for me.
Something like this without the belt.
https://encrypted-tbn0.gstatic.com/shop ... 63ODwq2Hia
Something else I do is wear a longer top untucked over a skirt.

[robehickman]

The main point I was raising is that I think that the lack of non-horizontal lines in male fashion design today, works against making skirted outfits that read in a way that look organic.

Also, there are many more examples of 'dresses' (cut in one piece, or having seperate bodice and skirt sewn together) in male fashion history than there are tops and skirts as seperate garments worn together.

The other problem I have is my tummy, wanting to bulge out over my waist. This can be fixed with a wide belt or corset. I have also worked to reduce the volume of the tummy to also get around these problems.

Loose tunic / dress type things are also effective at covering that.

[Kay]

I have a pot belly. My true waist measurement is larger than my hip! If I wear a dress, I'd look pregant. So this topic interests me much.

[Faldaguy]

"Unflattering" -- a personal and social construct of no particular import. We ALL come in a multitude of shapes -- women, men, and goats-- why the obsession with everyone looking like a "model' when damn few, even the models, really look like the presentations. There are ample, pun intended, women as well as men where a waistline often is the largest point of circumference, and yes, we can camouflage it a bit with a loose shirt/top but how about the simple: pick a skirt and top that create a pleasant picture, and go away happy. We ain't models; we aren't selling sex on the street corner; and we are not likely in line for an infantry position with Hegseth, so forget the bloody illusion we are camera fodder and simply enjoy the comfort, color, feel, and freedom to wear what you dang well please.

[crfriend]

For the win with that post, Faldaguy. Very, very well put.

Pick a look that works for you and go with that. It's hard to go wrong that way. Be careful with colour observations, however, lest you fall 'foul of the Cancel Crowd as I recently did and need to formulate a proper response. (The advice from close-in advisors is I need to fight this rather than acquiesce and simply quit. "Name and shame" was the way it was put, and I tend to agree. This from a chap who works where seeing guys in skirts is fairly unremarkable.)

[Grok]

Pick a look that works for you and go with that. It's hard to go wrong that way.

Agreed

[DrFishnets]

I’m a big guy with a big pot belly but I’ve started wearing a big belt round my waist (navel area) when wearing mini dresses or a matching black top with my matching black maxi skirt. It gives a bit of form. I recently bought a big studded belt which gives me the goth “girl” look. I tend to stick with black or dark colours because I’m a big guy. Of course the best way is to lose weight as being obese isn’t good for my health but it’s difficult even though I’ve lost weight before but it’s keeping under a healthy weight which is the problem.

[robehickman]

All of the responses here besides the first few are completely missing the point I was making.

Most humans can, entirely subconsciously, differentiate between a male and female of the species at some distance, largely irrespective of what they are wearing. This is because there are physiological differences in body proportions, which at a surface level look different, but also create differences in weight distribution and balance that cause the person to move differently.

Yes there are variations between individual men and women within those categories, but the actual overlap between them appears to be quite limited. If this were not the case, then the point raised in the previous paragraph would not be true. Also the whole cultural objection to men wearing skirts could not exist, because it would be impossible to tell that it was a man or woman wearing a skirt. Most people can very easily tell.

Because there body shapes are not the same, it thus stands to reason that clothing that works proportionally for one or the other, will also not be the same. There are countless examples of men wearing skirts and skirted garments in fashion history, and most of then do not create an instinctual 'that looks weird' reaction I frequently experience when I see people doing this nowadays.

I do not feel that it is unreasonable to assume that people historically were aware of how to design garments that work on a given body type, they almost certainly tried and rejected things that looked odd to them.

If dressing in a given way makes you happy my goal is not to invalidate that. I'm sharing some observations around garment design trends that I've noticed in historic male skirted garments that make them look natural on the person.

[sellek]

It is a pertinent point, I have noted that the actual sizes linked to female dress sizes have grown over the year,s a modern size 12 skirt will have bigger waist and hips compared to a vintage size 12 skirt. I have a waist size of 32'' and hips 38'', this generally equates to a size 12, sometimes a 14, with these skirts I am wearing them with the waist at my natural (belly button) waist line. To make this look OK I am either tucking my top into the waist or wearing a short bodied (20'') jumper to my eye this does seem to give an OK look between top and bottom. irrespective of the colour.

It does seem that when you can get a skirt that fits well at waist and hips it does feel good.

[crfriend]

It is a pertinent point, I have noted that the actual sizes linked to female dress sizes have grown over the year,s a modern size 12 skirt will have bigger waist and hips compared to a vintage size 12 skirt.

This is well known and commonly derided as "vanity sizing" where it adjusts the numerical sizes to make the average person "feel better" about fitting into something that would normally be too small for them. It' is part of the "size-shaming" game and really ought to be discouraged as being destructive of the utilitarian aspect of having standard sized that can be used to select garments with.

[robehickman]

It is a pertinent point, I have noted that the actual sizes linked to female dress sizes have grown over the year,s a modern size 12 skirt will have bigger waist and hips compared to a vintage size 12 skirt.

This is well known and commonly derided as "vanity sizing" where it adjusts the numerical sizes to make the average person "feel better" about fitting into something that would normally be too small for them. It' is part of the "size-shaming" game and really ought to be discouraged as being destructive of the utilitarian aspect of having standard sized that can be used to select garments with.

Nichole Rudolph has discussed this, along with many other related topics:

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=hIoIFCF4000

[Coder]

I have mixed feelings about these discussions. I think it's helpful to reflect on what has come before us (historical clothing), how men/women differ generally (but not at an individual level), and what the current trend for proportions are and how to achieve them.

However, I have a lot of trouble with the idea that with "this one cool trick" we will become pleasing to other's eyes.

I get the desire to avoid any jarring or uncanny valley looks - and it's something that drives me to a point of obsession to curate the "perfect outfit" - something I am working on dialing back. But in my heart of hearts - this group - we aren't big enough to create a new trend - so we might as well wear what we like. If MIS catches on, a natural, gradual "alignment" will take place - designers will get smart about good ready to wear outfits - retailers will pump out bland skirts for men, and we will still be on the fringes, though less so.

Just some thoughts - I appreciate the discussion... I just feel like it reinforces rules which have kept men from dressing in unique and experimental ways.

[crfriend]

Coder arrives at a couple of valid conclusions here insofar as beating up on particular body-parts and shapes and the general size of the community and its ability to "drive trends".

Face it, we're a tiny community and are very "thin on the ground" when one considers the population of the planet -- too small to have any effect in the real world. Really, the best thing we can hope for it to be left alone when it comes to harassment and abuse and be allowed to get on with our lives.

There's also no "magic bullet" or "quick fix" for some of the problems. Sociological problems move at glacial speeds save when the rabble is whipped into a frenzy, and visual trickery if difficult to master and does not work 100% of the time. So we can toss that out the window quite quickly,

Face it, skirts present an unmistakable silhouette that's easily discernable from a distance and people -- especially the stupid -- WILL misinterpret things. They, however, own that fault and so long as they leave us alone can be easily enough tolerated. The best we can do is be honest about things and portray ourselves in the best light we can,

Personally, I'd like to see a focus towards nicer/finer fabrics with elegant tactile qualities. I know that flies in the face of the slavish devotion to denim, but I've never understood the fascination with denim since I was very, very little and its ubiquity is the primary reason I regard it as visual and fashion pollution.